AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[schwabbele]

7 minutes ago, Maturin said:

meaning that the Skybol bow's D6 can never be a 1 or a 2 since the to hit range is 3+.

It can be a 2 if you put the bow on the prime.

[JackStreicher]

8 minutes ago, Maturin said:

What about the judicators skybolt bows ? If I roll a 3, then it'******, I don't need to reroll those dices to see if I hit, right ? meaning that the Skybol bow's D6 can never be a 1 or a 2 since the to hit range is 3+.

What?
No, you hit and IF you hit you roll a D6 for the number of hits (hits don't need to hit again). ofc you can roll a 1, 2 or 3...

Edited July 7, 2020 by JackStreicher

[Maturin]

3 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

It can be a 2 if you put the bow on the prime.

 

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

What?
No, you hit and IF you hit you roll a D6 for the number of hits (hits don't need to hit again). ofc you can roll a 1, 2 or 3...

OK thanks.
But what if I roll a 6. Will it generate another dice because of the prayer ? IT shouldn't, since it's not a to hit roll.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Maturin

[schwabbele]

No Idea tbh but in the case that the special bow hits with a 6 and the prayer is active I would think it is 1 additional hit so 1 + D6 hits all in all , however in case discussions come I would also just let it go

[Martijn de Bruin]

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Leaders
Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger (200)
- General
- Command Trait: Deathly Aura
- Artefact: Obsidian Amulet
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Wind Runner
Lord-Castellant (120)
Knight-Azyros (100)
- Artefact: Soulthief

Battleline
20 x Judicators (580)
- Skybolt Bows
- 4x Shockbolt Bows
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces
10 x Sequitors (240)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 5x Stormsmite Greatmaces

Units
5 x Evocators (210)
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning
5 x Evocators (210)
- Lore of Invigoration: Speed of Lightning

Battalions
Cleansing Phalanx (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 128
 

This will be my list for testing post-ghb20. Not sure about the mount trait and artefact choice though. Any thoughts?

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Maturin said:

But what if I roll a 6. Will it generate another dice because of the prayer ? IT shouldn't, since it's not a to hit roll.

No because it's not a to hit roll. But you could roll a 6 to hit. Get one hit extra + d6 for the bow.  

So you got it exactly right. 

[Evantas]

1 hour ago, Martijn de Bruin said:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Anvils of the Heldenhammer

Battalions
Cleansing Phalanx (120)

This will be my list for testing post-ghb20. Not sure about the mount trait and artefact choice though. Any thoughts?

Trying to make a similar list to yours work, except that I was considering Ballistas / Venators rather than Judicators. 

Aethereal Stalker would be my pick for mount traits, but don't see much for artefacts. 

Depending on your meta, mindlock staff might be useful. Otherwise I'd default to Gift of the Six Smiths. 

[Requizen]

Been thinking more about the Vanguard Chamber 1 drop list. I initially wrote it off due to relative weakness of Vanguard units, but the more I muse on it, the better I think it is - though I think Anvilstrike is overall stronger. 

Vanguard Chamber brings overall better shooting to the table. After all, your Longstrikes are getting double shots per turn without CP usage, and can go quad with Anvils CA. That's quite the fusillade. Plus, incidental shooting from Palladors and Hunters to chip off support units, and a Luckstone Venator for sniping. 

Additionally, the ability to split your Longstrikes around the table instead of being one unit that you have to castle around provides a lot of tactical opportunity. Without the Evo unit providing counter-charge threat, the list will be more encouraged to play with finesse, positioning wide and retreating/sacrificing where needed. It's also more opportunity to spread birds around, which I love doing. 

One drop control of turn order is no joke either. Being able to control getting the first double, especially with an army that can play the positional game, is really damning to some enemies. You can have up to 7 units off the table, which allows you to really mess with your opponent with threat spread. 

Now obviously, the main issue is lack of overall melee power (mostly in the Aquilor and Azyros Heroes) and weakness to other mobile shooting that can pick off our small units. I think the viability will lie heavily on the rest of the meta and how much we can expect our Longstrike units to survive. 

I won't get a chance to play it in person anytime soon, but I do think it'll be at least mid-tier. 

[Marcvs]

3 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Been thinking more about the Vanguard Chamber 1 drop list. I initially wrote it off due to relative weakness of Vanguard units, but the more I muse on it, the better I think it is - though I think Anvilstrike is overall stronger. 

Vanguard Chamber brings overall better shooting to the table. After all, your Longstrikes are getting double shots per turn without CP usage, and can go quad with Anvils CA. That's quite the fusillade. Plus, incidental shooting from Palladors and Hunters to chip off support units, and a Luckstone Venator for sniping. 

Additionally, the ability to split your Longstrikes around the table instead of being one unit that you have to castle around provides a lot of tactical opportunity. Without the Evo unit providing counter-charge threat, the list will be more encouraged to play with finesse, positioning wide and retreating/sacrificing where needed. It's also more opportunity to spread birds around, which I love doing. 

One drop control of turn order is no joke either. Being able to control getting the first double, especially with an army that can play the positional game, is really damning to some enemies. You can have up to 7 units off the table, which allows you to really mess with your opponent with threat spread. 

Now obviously, the main issue is lack of overall melee power (mostly in the Aquilor and Azyros Heroes) and weakness to other mobile shooting that can pick off our small units. I think the viability will lie heavily on the rest of the meta and how much we can expect our Longstrike units to survive. 

I won't get a chance to play it in person anytime soon, but I do think it'll be at least mid-tier. 

Not saying that the list is bad (it isnt) but at first blush I fear there are some glaring weaknesses, notably against everything that can deploy outside 24" (let alone 30") and still be threatening -leaving you the choice between taking turn 1 initiative and doing half damage with deepstriking or giving them initiative and lose a lot of your stuff. The absence of Incantors' scrolls adds to this. Out of the top of my head, only listing stuff I have fought on TTS in the past couple of months:

• a Slann/Kroak/Oracle casting their comet: since now you have multiple units, it's easy to lose a third of your raptors with a 10+ comet.
• (AoE) Spells cast through an umbral spellportal (even worse if empowered), or an everblaze comet
• OBR catapults
• Soulscream bridge in CoS
• KO fly high
• Teleporting flamers (or even pinks if you don't screen) in changehost
• Salamanders in Starborne (even worse in Dracothion’s Tail) -to a lesser extent, screening them is possible
• LRL archers

Suppose my point is: this is probably very strong in certain matchups, but IMHO it's not the bunker in which we'll comfortably wait for the new battletome

 

[jhamslam]

48 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Not saying that the list is bad (it isnt) but at first blush I fear there are some glaring weaknesses, notably against everything that can deploy outside 24" (let alone 30") and still be threatening -leaving you the choice between taking turn 1 initiative and doing half damage with deepstriking or giving them initiative and lose a lot of your stuff. The absence of Incantors' scrolls adds to this. Out of the top of my head, only listing stuff I have fought on TTS in the past couple of months:

• a Slann/Kroak/Oracle casting their comet: since now you have multiple units, it's easy to lose a third of your raptors with a 10+ comet.
• (AoE) Spells cast through an umbral spellportal (even worse if empowered), or an everblaze comet
• OBR catapults
• Soulscream bridge in CoS
• KO fly high
• Teleporting flamers (or even pinks if you don't screen) in changehost
• Salamanders in Starborne (even worse in Dracothion’s Tail) -to a lesser extent, screening them is possible
• LRL archers

Suppose my point is: this is probably very strong in certain matchups, but IMHO it's not the bunker in which we'll comfortably wait for the new battletome

 

Yeah i saw Vince Venturellas weekly episode regarding this.

Shooting was always kinda uninteractive outside look out sir, but Magic is becoming even more uninteractive and the Magic Armies are also getting insane shooting. Most armies lack more than 2-3 unbinds much less the ability to unbind with a +2 or +3. 
 

With so much damage being done in the magic and shooting phase, specially from Tzeentch, Seraphon and now lumineth, its almost pointless to bring low wound armies'/ models, which incidentally is ALL stormcast heroes save the stardrake. It really does create a negative play experience, more so than just longstrikes.

Like a flamer or salamdner or LRL Archer spam can literally delete all your heroes by the end of turn 2, its so stupid

[Juicy]

im thinking about going minimum heroes. Going to test my 2 hero list on friday just to see if i miss it. Cause in the new meta it feels like im better of with more bodys then heroes that have a high chance of going BOOM in turn 2. 

 

R.I.P My fav lord relictor character. Not sure i keep seeing u on the field my bro

[CommissarRotke]

i'm still catching up on this thread but I have a question concerning the sorry state of SCE... does it make anyone else less likely to paint or build them? I really do enjoy the models, and even though the amount of details on Sacrosanct units are intimidating for someone coming back to paint after ~decade ... I wonder how much of my lack of hobby motivation is because of how ignored Stormcast are. Heck even thinking about picking another army I don't know who I'd pick because I'm drawn to the Stormcast aesthetic the most. Any tips for hobby malaise?

[Kramer]

4 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

i'm still catching up on this thread but I have a question concerning the sorry state of SCE... does it make anyone else less likely to paint or build them? I really do enjoy the models, and even though the amount of details on Sacrosanct units are intimidating for someone coming back to paint after ~decade ... I wonder how much of my lack of hobby motivation is because of how ignored Stormcast are. Heck even thinking about picking another army I don't know who I'd pick because I'm drawn to the Stormcast aesthetic the most. Any tips for hobby malaise?

It doesn't for me. Painting is creative and fun and the game might dictate what you paint but the proces itself should be fun regardless. I personally could never get through an army that I don't like the models of. Because that would make the painting a chore. 

Secondly, as the poster boy faction... you know we get the most updates, most special models, most models in general, and usually some of the best rules. GW just had a big spree getting everything up to date. One of the first of that spree that started in 2018? Stormcast even though they released a book in 2015 and 2017. So I;m willing to bet it's one of the first new updates to come and that will definitely usher in a time that the army is very good again. (not saying guaranteed  tournament winning, but very good)

[Maturin]

6 hours ago, schwabbele said:

No Idea tbh but in the case that the special bow hits with a 6 and the prayer is active I would think it is 1 additional hit so 1 + D6 hits all in all , however in case discussions come I would also just let it go

Fair point about that point you pointed it well

 

[Maturin]

55 minutes ago, Juicy said:

im thinking about going minimum heroes. Going to test my 2 hero list on friday just to see if i miss it. Cause in the new meta it feels like im better of with more bodys then heroes that have a high chance of going BOOM in turn 2. 

 

R.I.P My fav lord relictor character. Not sure i keep seeing u on the field my bro

SCE strengths lies in their synergies between heroes and units. Our unit's warscrolls are ****** compared to what other factions have. Some units can function totally fne without support. That's not our case.

[schwabbele]

57 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

does it make anyone else less likely to paint or build them?

Nope unfortunatelly *wallet cries* , I really like the models and lore. And as a beginner painter the bigger models are great looking at you tiny CoS models.

However I agree from time to time its hard to motivate myself and play them, but I try to change things up then somehow. My next games will be more narrative based and I am fielding Skyborne Slayers. Next ones will be with the Drake and so on . We are a smallish group so I don't care about winning that much as long as we have a nice game.

For motivation you could try a doing a nice base for a hero and go all out on him/her and try new stuff out.

[Mikosan]

35 minutes ago, Maturin said:

SCE strengths lies in their synergies between heroes and units. Our unit's warscrolls are ****** compared to what other factions have. Some units can function totally fne without support. That's not our case.

Eh?  I think one of SCE biggest weaknesses is the lack of quality synergy between units and heroes.  Pretty much comes down to reroll 1's to hit(a lot of this) or +1 sv(which is limited to castellant lamp on one unit, or wholly within 9" staunch defender and you lose the option if you take any stormhosts) .  A lot of average units in AoS can layer synergies and become very good.  Our units have to function as is or with mild buffs on one unit here and there.  Anvils allowing for hero phase attack/shoot being the notable exception and why most lists lean that way despite the obvious tax in losing access to staunch and picking useful items.   This is of course just my opinion though.

[Kramer]

15 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

Eh?  I think one of SCE biggest weaknesses is the lack of quality synergy between units and heroes.  Pretty much comes down to reroll 1's to hit(a lot of this) or +1 sv(which is limited to castellant lamp on one unit, or wholly within 9" staunch defender and you lose the option if you take any stormhosts) .  A lot of average units in AoS can layer synergies and become very good.  Our units have to function as is or with mild buffs on one unit here and there.  Anvils allowing for hero phase attack/shoot being the notable exception and why most lists lean that way despite the obvious tax in losing access to staunch and picking useful items.   This is of course just my opinion though.

Although I understand and mostly agree with it. 
the other argument is easily made. Relictor for translocation prayer, lord arcanum for support, incantor for dispel scroll, staunch defender is really good but not worth keeping a big hero back, even celestant-prime falls in this category in a way. 

Because 8 wound heroes with a three up save are still very much targets for those mortal wounds spell slingers. 

[Mikosan]

20 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Although I understand and mostly agree with it. 
the other argument is easily made. Relictor for translocation prayer, lord arcanum for support, incantor for dispel scroll, staunch defender is really good but not worth keeping a big hero back, even celestant-prime falls in this category in a way. 

Because 8 wound heroes with a three up save are still very much targets for those mortal wounds spell slingers. 

Translocation and dispel scrolls are good I agree, however, they don’t buff our units which I see most folks argue don’t have enough staying power or punch.  It’s what made sequitors so good in the early days of AoS 2.0, they buffed themselves and could layer synergy with arcanum or evocators. Now even that doesn’t look so hot. The ranges on new stuff like abilities and buffs are enormous

[Kramer]

10 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

Translocation and dispel scrolls are good I agree, however, they don’t buff our units which I see most folks argue don’t have enough staying power or punch.  It’s what made sequitors so good in the early days of AoS 2.0, they buffed themselves and could layer synergy with arcanum or evocators. Now even that doesn’t look so hot. The ranges on new stuff like abilities and buffs are enormous

No I agree if you look specifically at buffs and synergies. I was trying to broaden it a bit to small utility heroes as well. 
because they are in the same risk group now. 
Vs Seraphon and lumineth you can’t rely on any of the above examples. 

but yes more stand alone power would be nice. Or better (magic) protection for 5 wound heroes. 

[Maturin]

1 hour ago, Mikosan said:

Eh?  I think one of SCE biggest weaknesses is the lack of quality synergy between units and heroes.  Pretty much comes down to reroll 1's to hit(a lot of this) or +1 sv(which is limited to castellant lamp on one unit, or wholly within 9" staunch defender and you lose the option if you take any stormhosts) .  A lot of average units in AoS can layer synergies and become very good.  Our units have to function as is or with mild buffs on one unit here and there.  Anvils allowing for hero phase attack/shoot being the notable exception and why most lists lean that way despite the obvious tax in losing access to staunch and picking useful items.   This is of course just my opinion though.

Lack of "quality synergy" is not equal to "no synergy". Please, do not misrepresent what I said.

What I said is our warscroll do not function well alone, we need our heroes to have just that little bit more of efficiency. Lord Celestant giving +1 to melee in a small bubble for a CP, Drake Templar giving +1 to dracoths IF his bow attack connects, Staunch with a 9inch within bubble, etc.
Indeed, the mediocre synergy we have is laughable  compared to what other factions have, but if you remove said mediocre synergy, what's left of SCE ? Not much.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Maturin

[Juicy]

21 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Lack of "quality synergy" is not equal to "no synergy". Please, do not misrepresent what I said.

What I said is our warscroll do not function well alone, we need our heroes to have just that little bit more of efficiency. Lord Celestant giving +1 to melee in a small bubble for a CP, Drake Templar giving +1 to dracoths IF his bow attack connects, Staunch with a 9inch within bubble, etc.
Indeed, the mediocre synergy we have is laughable  compared to what other factions have, but if you remove said mediocre synergy, what's left of SCE ? Not much.

i agree but with the new meta we about to face no 5 wound heroes are going to be there long. So that synergie we be looking for and we think is needed just wont survive till turn 2/3. Atleast im up against a competive envirement with oldschool stuff.:) Im still not sure we can build around heroes in a non combat meta.

[Mikosan]

10 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Lack of "quality synergy" is not equal to "no synergy". Please, do not misrepresent what I said.

What I said is our warscroll do not function well alone, we need our heroes to have just that little bit more of efficiency. Lord Celestant giving +1 to melee in a small bubble for a CP, Drake Templar giving +1 to dracoths IF his bow attack connects, Staunch with a 9inch within bubble, etc.
Indeed, the mediocre synergy we have is laughable  compared to what other factions have, but if you remove said mediocre synergy, what's left of SCE ? Not much.

Didn’t mean to misrepresent what you said, apologies there.  As Kramer mentioned a lot of those 5-6 wound support pieces are going to be dead turn 2. I think it’s the lack of layering  of synergies that holds SC back imho. Stormhosts mostly all have some marginal benefit which is fine if those bennys could be stacked with the couple useful traits, items, command abilities we have access to. 

I think the strength of the army such as it is, is in the massive choice in units we have. Should be something in the toolbox for whatever situation arises, it’s just the combo of older design philosophy and locking doors to more synergies that hits hard on the tabletop.  I do love the new points though and been having a blast writing new lists. As others have said more and more I am looking to take less heroes to get more value on the board, how that works out once we can play these things out in the wild only Sigmar knows

[Maturin]

1 minute ago, Juicy said:

i agree but with the new meta we about to face no 5 wound heroes are going to be there long. So that synergie we be looking for and we think is needed just wont survive till turn 2/3. Atleast im up against a competive envirement with oldschool stuff.:) Im still not sure we can build around heroes in a non combat meta.

I agree. That's why one drop armies or armies with a lot of screening unit could be useful. It remains to be seen if they can still be effective with heroes either far back (not a problem with Starcast for instance) or in the skies.

 

2 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

Didn’t mean to misrepresent what you said, apologies there.

Apologies accepted mate.

[Turragor]

RE: synergy

SC are weird - kind of cool. The synergy isn't often 2 warscrolls buffing each other which can be common in other armies. Buffs from traits or hosts (battletome) are more the order of the day.

& I find the most synergistic play with Stormcast comes with how you play. To some extent all armies are like this - it's the game. It just feels like a lot to bear in mind with how the units move and trigger effects - even though they've no rules like CoS or Lumineth for standing in a type of unit formation.

Everything has to be deployed right, played right or you have a bad time. If you stick with Stormcast you learn how to play to their (and your) strengths. You have to or you get very disheartened.

I think what I'm mainly getting when I play against some of the tougher list matchups, is a feeling of stretching every bit of fibre of a faction - squeezing juice till there's no juice left - just to play on equal terms. That is, for me, kind of fun. I earn nearly all victories I have (even with a B.S. support hero elimination list like Starcast :P) because if I mistakes victory turns quickly to defeat.

It would be much easier to play a low model count army with say, terrorgheists but I dig a lot of SC.

I've played them in almost every tournament I want to enjoy because they stretch the brain so much - plus I'm a slow painter