AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[PJetski]

I can see Tauralons being good at 1000pt, especially Aventis since he heals every turn. Maybe even 1500.

My experience has been that they are just too fragile at 2000+, even with the 6+ ignore from the mount trait and Staunch/Hammers defensive bonuses.

[Requizen]

On 11/15/2018 at 5:34 AM, Nos said:

I don't know if Stormcast can perform with other options at the highest level.

However very few people play at the highest level so it seems a strange metric to go by. 

Stormcast are very competitive for and against the 95% of people who will use/play against them regardless of faction. And you will get better with them if you work off experience and learning them through play than just the gain saying of people obsessed with playing them at the top level that basically no-one plays at.

I've only lost once with Anvils Longstrikes, and that was in a bad matchup, in a bad mission for me, in Ulgu, with the 18" realmscape feature so my most important unit was shut off. And I still possibly could have won if I had deployed and played a bit differently.

Stardrake lists are fine. Ballista bomb lists are fine. Skyborne Slayers is actually super good right now but everyone (including me) wants to play with the new toys. I would make an argument that there's a heavy shooting list out there that runs a lot of Hurricanes and a couple brick units as well, but I've not tested it. 

Gav is pretty much too good right now and that's why people are taking it over the other options. Doesn't mean they can't compete.

[ledha]

28 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I can see Tauralons being good at 1000pt, especially Aventis since he heals every turn. Maybe even 1500.

My experience has been that they are just too fragile at 2000+, even with the 6+ ignore from the mount trait and Staunch/Hammers defensive bonuses.

His resilience is quite in line with other 300+ pts monsters, with the advantage of not having a degrading profile. I run mine with the gryph feather charm and as a general with staunch defenders, and a 2+/6++ with -1 to hit mean my opponent will have to work a bit too kill him.

[Black Blade]

17 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

On the subject of Facebook, I don’t seem to do very well with SCE, but I feel like I could if I played better or maybe took a better list. But in general I only have a 50% win rate with them, if even that. If many of the units I’m currently using were to go up in points cost, the main issue I would have would be trying to generate enough threats on the table.

 I don’t know if evocators are underpriced compared to the rest of the game as a whole, but I can say that relative to the rest of my army they are incredibly good, and it makes all the other options look bad. So I think that’s a problem that needs to be addressed somehow.

 

16 hours ago, Nos said:

The overwhelming majority of people don't play tournaments though so that's not really any indication.

On a casual basis i.e. The basis that most people play, I can see Stormcast winning a lot of the time. They're easy to pick up and plug into, they're good at most things , they don't require much in the way intricate law interpretation and have few weaknesses in general . For folk just playing at their clubs once a week or less with their pals as most people do, that is going to be much easier to win with than a more specialist army which might be objectively better when properly synergused or optimised but requires more practice  and precision to do so. Not to mention financial investment. You can buy an effective SC army cheaply. Other top armies are quite a bit more, and also require far more hobby hours too.

You can put most Stormcast units anywhere on the table and get them to do whatever and they'll likely do fine.  You can also paint them using whatever method and you'd have to do a really bad  job for them to not look serviceable. They give a big return for not much investment on all fronts, which is why I love them really. They're perfect to just play with, you'll have fun, your head won't hurt after, you're unlikely to disgrace yourself and if you play well and roll the averages you're pretty likely to win. I see why people who don't play them get pissed Off at them. They're the Man Utd/New England Patriots of AOS.

Sequitors should be 5-10 points more per unit honestly. My unit of 10 rarely miss all their attacks after re-rolls, they put out and survive way more than 120 points per 5. They killed a Great Unclean one about 3 times over last game, even with the relic where he regains all wounds on a 4+, and there were two left over afterwards. 240 points to keep a GU tied down for 3 turns.

 

I play casually and we have been in a escalation league over the past 7 weeks at the local shop. I am one of three SCE players, the other two are at the bottom of a list of 13 meaning so far they have won the least. I am undefeated though and the current resident villain. Its not a super competitive environment, there are zero DoK or Nagash armies and I don't have access to the best lists because I just don't own those models. After playing this league which is the first of its kind I have ever participated in I think i have a good feeling for how the army is ( or isnt) balanced.

Sequitors and Evocators should go up in cost. They are not just good for their points but they make all other options in their category not be taken. Every list I write I look at my Fulminators and my Retributors and think about including them but then I think Evocators are better than both AND cheaper than both... That is not all Evocators fault though. I think 220 is fine for them but ALMOST ALL our "old" elite units should fall in cost.  

Sequitors are in the same boat, having 5 great weapons in a 10 man unit vs 2 in a 10 man Liberator squad is enough to justify the additional 20 points. However I would never take Sequitors at 160 which is where I have heard some people say they should be. A lot of this imbalance in my opinion comes from GW finding its footing in AoS 2.0 which means first run Stormcast are often weak or underwhelming. Liberators having a worse profile across the board vs sequitors, paladins being slower than other units and have only 2 attacks per man on an elite unit, Dracothian Guard not being conditional Battleline.... all these are relics of a game system developed without matched play in mind, with no consideration of points cost balancing and I hope GW addresses them in the next Stormcast update because some of these deserves buffs as well as points changes.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Well, I just wonder. Is it OK to use "pretending" technique in some not very formal competition/tournament for your guys? For example, I have 5 castigator from Soul war, can I pretend them as judicators or raptors(they share the same base size) in competition if I make it clear they are pretending something else at the very beginning of the match.

[Requizen]

32 minutes ago, ledha said:

His resilience is quite in line with other 300+ pts monsters, with the advantage of not having a degrading profile. I run mine with the gryph feather charm and as a general with staunch defenders, and a 2+/6++ with -1 to hit mean my opponent will have to work a bit too kill him.

I've used mine a couple times, mostly in low point games. His resilience is great for his price. Damage output is ok, but I think the main issue is that he pays a lot for being a 2 spell caster. A lot of times I was just casting Mystic Shield and a Realm Spell, it feels like the casting isn't super impactful since our Lores are pretty meh overall. 

I was comparing him to the Aspect of the Sea (similar price, both 3+ heroes with 2 casts). Tauralon is less wounds, but has his 6+++ save and Staunch. The thing is, the Eidolon can heal 2d3 each turn and has an innate -hit debuff spell, which makes it just as tanky if not moreso, and it also messes up shooting with the Allegiance Ability. Treelord Ancient is also a similar price point, gets healing spells, can teleport, has a shooting attack and slightly better melee.

The Tauralon isn't bad, but he's just kinda awkward. Tanky, but with just middling damage (though he can burst with the Vials) and little utility, he doesn't wow me for the points. If there was like a hard debuff/buff spell, or he could do the vials multiple times per game, or he could heal, that'd be another thing, but as it stands he kinda ties things up for a bit and sometimes chunks a unit for some reasonable damage. I'd rather have a Stradrake for that, personally.

[Nos]

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

I've only lost once with Anvils Longstrikes, and that was in a bad matchup, in a bad mission for me, in Ulgu, with the 18" realmscape feature so my most important unit was shut off. And I still possibly could have won if I had deployed and played a bit differently.

Stardrake lists are fine. Ballista bomb lists are fine. Skyborne Slayers is actually super good right now but everyone (including me) wants to play with the new toys. I would make an argument that there's a heavy shooting list out there that runs a lot of Hurricanes and a couple brick units as well, but I've not tested it. 

Gav is pretty much too good right now and that's why people are taking it over the other options. Doesn't mean they can't compete.

Absolutely. Their model limitation/cost is overcome by their resilience, their damage is good via magic, ranged and combat phase. Their only real weakness is MW's and Masses of attacks but they have plentiful buffs, auras, abilities and traits which can mitigate that and even turn it into a weapon (Halo e.g.) and all of these further enhance the things they're already good at as well. They're incredibly well rounded and you have to really do something dumb regarding your battleplan or roll appallingly to have a bad game with them. They're always there to arm wrestle in the final turn sort of thing. 

 

[Mohojoe]

Hey all, trying to get a functioning Army together to play some games. 

Currently have a star drake, relictor, 2 fulminators and 10 sequitors. 

I'm thinking of splitting sequitors into two groups of five and adding a Lord arcanum on foot and a unit of judicators, a heralding and a castellant.

Anyone got any better suggestions? 

[tamthethird]

4 hours ago, Black Blade said:

 

I play casually and we have been in a escalation league over the past 7 weeks at the local shop. I am one of three SCE players, the other two are at the bottom of a list of 13 meaning so far they have won the least. I am undefeated though and the current resident villain. Its not a super competitive environment, there are zero DoK or Nagash armies and I don't have access to the best lists because I just don't own those models. After playing this league which is the first of its kind I have ever participated in I think i have a good feeling for how the army is ( or isnt) balanced.

Sequitors and Evocators should go up in cost. They are not just good for their points but they make all other options in their category not be taken. Every list I write I look at my Fulminators and my Retributors and think about including them but then I think Evocators are better than both AND cheaper than both... That is not all Evocators fault though. I think 220 is fine for them but ALMOST ALL our "old" elite units should fall in cost.  

Sequitors are in the same boat, having 5 great weapons in a 10 man unit vs 2 in a 10 man Liberator squad is enough to justify the additional 20 points. However I would never take Sequitors at 160 which is where I have heard some people say they should be. A lot of this imbalance in my opinion comes from GW finding its footing in AoS 2.0 which means first run Stormcast are often weak or underwhelming. Liberators having a worse profile across the board vs sequitors, paladins being slower than other units and have only 2 attacks per man on an elite unit, Dracothian Guard not being conditional Battleline.... all these are relics of a game system developed without matched play in mind, with no consideration of points cost balancing and I hope GW addresses them in the next Stormcast update because some of these deserves buffs as well as points changes.

I think this is all pretty spot on. The issue is not really Stormcasts competitiveness relative to other factions, it’s their own internal balance that is the issue in a faction whose range of units has dramatically bloated compared to everything else within the same period.

I would love for it to be a real tough decision to consider Paladins versus Evocators versus Fulmis etc etc  As you say - at the moment there’s just one thing which is obviously the best choice in some of those core roles and that results in some rather one dimensional conversations around competitive lists.

[PJetski]

Here's my take on where Stormcast points should be in GHB2019

• Celestar Ballista - 100 > 120
• Gavriel Sureheart - 100 > 160
• Knight-Incantor - 140 > 160
• Evocators - 200 > 240
• Liberators - 100/520 > 80, Max 30 > 20
• Aventis Firestrike - 360 > 320
• Celestant-Prime - 340 > 300
• Knight-Questor - 100 > 80
• Lord-Arcanum 180 > 160
• Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon - 340 > 300
• Lord-Exorcist - 140 > 120
• Lord-Ordinator - 140 > 120
• Castigators - 80 > 80/280, Max 18 > 12
• Concussors - 260 > 240
• Decimators - 200 > 180
• Desolators - 220 > 200
• Judicators - 160 > 140
• Prosecutors - 100 > 80, Battleline in Stormcast Eternal army
• Protectors - 200 > 180
• Retributors - 220 > 200
• Celestian Vortex - 40 > 30
• Dais Arcanum - 40 > 30
• Lightning Echelon - 130 > 120
• Lords of the Storm - 140 > 100
• Thunderhead Brotherhood - 160 > 100
• Vanguard Angelos Conclave - 160 > 120
• Vanguard Wing - 140 > 120

[kenshin620]

Battleline Prosecutors would be pretty neat.

Also interesting no one has really been talking about the ES costs. Comet is probably fine but I do agree the others could use a point decrease. That coupled with Lord Exorcist drop could make Exorcist+Dias a viable anti magic option.

Edited November 17, 2018 by kenshin620

[HammerOfSigmar]

I really doubt that if prosecutors become battleline and drops to 80 points, would someone still take the castigators? It seems to me that prosecutor with javelins outside 9" of the target outperform the castigator in average. 

[schwabbele]

5 hours ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

would someone still take the castigators? 

Hmm who takes them anyhow?

After I had a testgame I just wanted to melt them into a ball of plastic and throw them out the window because of how bad they are.

[PUFNSTUF]

Yes castigators don’t seem to be a great ranged option. For our ranged options, would 3 ballistas be better than 2 units of vanguard raptors with hurricanes? Both can be buffed by to hit buffs but wound roll is better for ballista.

[Mark Williams]

I have found that castigators are alright in small point games as hero killers. They also are a cheap unit to camp objectives. I painted the ones in the soul wars box and bought a box of the easy to build ones. I use them basically as points fillers.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Well, I haven't played a lot and personal experience tend to be subjective. I can show some math about several stormcast shooting units:

First, without any buff(but count the unit's own buff) and not rend or armor:

castigator   a unit of 80 points, 18" range, 1 attack, 3+ to hit(2+for the prime) ,  3+to wound, 1 damage, choosing reroll 1 to hit ability, average damage per unit is

1*(5/6+1/6*5/6)*2/3*1+2*(2/3+1/6*2/3)*2/3*1=1.6852      so damage over points is 0.021065

judicator   (skybolt bow&shock bolt)  a unit of 160 points, 24" range, 1 attack(d6 for prime), 3+ to hit(2+ for the prime), 3+ to wound, 1 damage, average damage per unit is

1*3.5*2/3*2/3*1+4*1*2/3*2/3*1=3.3333     so damage over points is 0.02083333

judicator   (boltstorm crossbow & shock bolt) a unit of 160 points, 12"range(prime 24"), 4 attack(if not moved), 3+ to hit(2+for the prime), 4+to wound, 1 damage, average damage per unit is

1*3.5*2/3*2/3*1+4*4*2/3*1/2=6.88888      so damage over points is 0.04306

if moved previously:  1*3.5*2/3*2/3*1+4*3*2/3*1/2=5.5556,    so damage over points is 0.034722

another special weapon for judicator is hard to calculate in math since it takes target unit model number into consideration, so just ignore it

ballista   (single shot)   a unit of 100 points, 36" range, d6 attack, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 1 damage, average damage per unit is

1*3.5*2/3*2/3*1=1.556   so damage over points is 0.01556

ballista   (rapid fire) a unit of 100 points, 18" range, 4d6 attack, 5+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 1 damage, average damage per unit is

4*3.4*1/3*2/3*1=3.1111, so damage over points is 0.03111

raptor  (with hurricane) a unit of 140 points, 18" range, 9 attacks(if not moved), 4+to hit, 4+ to wound, 1 damage, so average damage per unit is

1*9*2/3*1/2*1+2*9*1/2*1/2*1=7.5,    so damage over points is 0.05357

if moved previously: 1*6*2/3*1/2*1+2*6*1/2*1/2*1=5,  so damage over points is 0.03571

raptor (with longstrike) a unit of 180 points, 24"/30"(if not moved) range, 1 attack, 2+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 2 damage, so average damage per unit is 

3*5/6*2/3*2+1*2*1/2*2/3*1=6,  so damage over points is 0.03333

prosecutor   (with javelin) a unit of 100 points, 18" range, 1 attack,  3+to hit, 3+to wound, 1damage/2damge(prime),  so average damage per unit is

9" within the target:  2*2/3*2/3*1+2*2/3*2/3*2=2.6667,   damage over points is 0.02667

9" away from the target: 2*2/3*2/3*2+2*2/3*2/3*2=3.5556, damage over points is 0.035556

prosecutor (with hammer) a unit of 100 points, 18" range, 2 attack, 3+to hit, 3+to wound, 1 damage, so average damage per unit is

2*2*2/3*2/3*1+1*3*2/3*2/3*1=3.111, damage over points is 0.03111

prosecutor  (with hammers) a unit of 100 points, 18" range, 2 attack, 3+to hit, 3+to wound, 1 damage, so average damage per unit is

2*2*(2/3+1/6*2/3)*2/3*1+1*3*(2/3+1/6*2/3)*2/3*1=3.630, damage over points is 0.03630

 

Summary:

unit name                                  range             average damage over points

castigator                                    18"                       0.021065

judicator(bow)                          24"                      0.020833

judicator(crossbow)              12"                     0.04306(not moved)/0.034722(moved)

ballista(single shot)                36"                     0.01556

ballista(rapid fire)                    18"                    0.03111

raptor(hurricane)                     18"                    0.05357(not moved)/0.03571(moved)

raptor(longstrike)                     24"/30"          0.03333

prosecutor(javelin)                  18"                   0.02667(within 9" of target)/0.035556(9" away from target)

prosecutor(hammer)              18"                   0.03111

prosecutor(hammers)            18"                   0.03630

 

If the ballista have the ordinator's buff, they damage will increase by 50%, which makes it(rapid fire) the champion damage maker. Hence, it is ideal to take down any enemy, especially those cannot ignore rend.  

Although judicator with crossbow is actually the most effective damage maker if not taking ordinator's buff into consideration, their 12" range make them too close to enemy, which I think it is very bad. 

Prosecutor is also a good shooter, since they do decent damage and have the mobility that everyone else lacks. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by HammerOfSigmar

[HammerOfSigmar]

3 hours ago, PUFNSTUF said:

Yes castigators don’t seem to be a great ranged option. For our ranged options, would 3 ballistas be better than 2 units of vanguard raptors with hurricanes? Both can be buffed by to hit buffs but wound roll is better for ballista.

If shooting against units ignoring rend, then raptors with hurricanes actually perform better.   Otherwise, ballista will always be better.

[schwabbele]

On 11/16/2018 at 10:31 PM, PJetski said:

Here's my take on where Stormcast points should be in GHB2019

•  

I agree with most of your choices, however the gavriel increase is just to steep and won't solve anything. Instead of making him 60 points more expensive they should limit the CA use to 2 times max. That would solve the guaranteed charge issue some folks have. I know GW asked for points but CA use can also be faqed easily

[Freejack02]

9 hours ago, schwabbele said:

I agree with most of your choices, however the gavriel increase is just to steep and won't solve anything. Instead of making him 60 points more expensive they should limit the CA use to 2 times max. That would solve the guaranteed charge issue some folks have. I know GW asked for points but CA use can also be faqed easily

Twice max would be a very strange errata - it just needs to be limited to a single use. +3 to charge is quite strong, and turns your poor 9" attempts into a favorable 6... that's already good considering the bubble size. Add in Cogs for another 2" and you can still make easy charges without Gavriel being the list-maker and hate magnet he is currently is. Maybe then some internal issues with SCE can actually be identified and addressed.

[Mark Williams]

37 minutes ago, Freejack02 said:

Twice max would be a very strange errata - it just needs to be limited to a single use. +3 to charge is quite strong, and turns your poor 9" attempts into a favorable 6... that's already good considering the bubble size. Add in Cogs for another 2" and you can still make easy charges without Gavriel being the list-maker and hate magnet he is currently is. Maybe then some internal issues with SCE can actually be identified and addressed.

It’s a good point that you made, pointing out that Gavriel may be a huge reason why no one is seriously considering that Stormcast have some major problems. I was pretty saddened by the fact that other major SCE  “balance” thread got shut down because a couple Gavriel-based lists placed highly in some tournaments. The common mentality in these discussions always boils down to, “If you have ONE good combination, your army is fine and shut up.”

[Freejack02]

51 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

It’s a good point that you made, pointing out that Gavriel may be a huge reason why no one is seriously considering that Stormcast have some major problems. I was pretty saddened by the fact that other major SCE  “balance” thread got shut down because a couple Gavriel-based lists placed highly in some tournaments. The common mentality in these discussions always boils down to, “If you have ONE good combination, your army is fine and shut up.”

Yeah, similar reasoning to when the KO clown car list was still doing well despite the overall faction being in a terrible state. Everyone is calling for Sequitor and Evocator price increases, but I'd like Gavriel brought down to earth so we have a better baseline - then our older units getting decreased (Paladins, Prosecutors, Hunters, etc).

Also I feel like SCE are the perfect faction to just pick up and do OK with - new players and vets alike. Is there any other force in the game that is more user-friendly and accessible when starting out? There aren't a ton of synergies to build around and units just function pretty well on their own; and there's not a ton of models to manage. 

[PUFNSTUF]

How does the below list look? I really wish I could fit in a 3rd Ballista but it saves me not buying another.

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (240)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender 
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Savage Loyalty
Lord-Castellant (100)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 2x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 127
 

[HammerOfSigmar]

4 hours ago, PUFNSTUF said:

How does the below list look? I really wish I could fit in a 3rd Ballista but it saves me not buying another.

 

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (240)
- General
- Trait: Staunch Defender 
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm 
- Spell: Azyrite Halo
- Mount Trait: Savage Loyalty
Lord-Castellant (100)
Lord-Ordinator (140)
Knight-Heraldor (100)
20 x Sequitors (400)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 9x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Sequitors (120)
- Stormsmite Mauls and Soulshields
- 2x Stormsmite Greatmaces
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
6 x Evocators on Dracolines (600)
- 4x Grandstaves
- Lore of Invigoration: Celestial Blades
Celestar Ballista (100)
Celestar Ballista (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 127
 

If I remember correctly, 2 ballista+ordinator generate less damage than 3 ballista.

[Roodie]

Hey all, I need your collective wisdom planning my next purchases. I feel it's time to finally try the game with the second edition, and my first choice is the Stormcast Eternals, mostly because I already have the beginnings of the army from the Soul Wars box:

• Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger
• A Knight-Incantor
• A Lord-Castellant with a Gryph-hound (from the Hammerhal box)
• 3x Evocators
• 5x Castigators
• 8x Sequitors
• Ballista 
• Steelheart's Champions (from Shadespire)

I'm looking for a melee-based army mostly, and I love the Liberator minis,  so probably a box of liberators will be my first purchase, and the easy to build sequitor kit to bump up their numbers to 10... but after these? Help please :-)

[Lucur]

@HammerOfSigmar

If you consider wounds caused per point, leaving rend out will scew the numbers heavily. I know it's hard to objectively judge rend, as it gets better as the opposing save improves, but leaving it out of the equation seems worse to me. Not to forget that rend leads to consistent damage, as it smoothes out variance.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Lucur