AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Saodexan]

2 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

How DO we handle somethibg like that?

Kurnoth Hunter with Bow.
But seriously, shooting and magic are good, let just hope the new battletome give us more option to deal with this Always Strike First abomination.

[Heksagon]

36 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

How DO we handle something like that?

...we take Eels as allies

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

How DO we handle something like that?

Honestly? You don’t. 

We had a similar problem with Beastclaw Raiders and Thundertusks when the book first came out. 

Eventually, after a lot of discussion, what we settled on was “Don’t fight them”. This is where chaff and good WWplacement really makes a difference. 

Providing you aren’t playing a battleplan where he can push up on you, you need to drop your woods on choke points on the map, and ideally you’ll have 3 of them up before the start of turn 2 with as much distance between them as possible. Since you’l have a pretty good idea of where the charge is coming from,  you’ll have a couple of chaff units (like T-revs) positioned in a semi-circle 1” apart about 4” out in front of your dryads in the wood he’s closest to and most likely to charge. 

The idea is that if you positioning is right, he’ll have to go through the t-revs to get to the dryads. But after he pounds the T-revs into the dust top of turn 2, rather than engaging, you’l ideally you’ll have something magical nearby ready for your magic phase. Hopefully he wont dispel it (ranuu’s lamentiri or throne on vines or both) will be helpful here, and you can peel a few wounds off him through magic. After your hero phase, you teleport the dryads and your caster away to one of the woods on the other side of the map. Ideally putting anywhere between 48” and 72” between them. 

Now he’s stuck on the other side of the map, and hopefully will have lost a few inches of movement, and he will have to spend a turn crossing the gap. The rest of your army can do whatever they need to do, taking out a unit or two before they have to worry about him again. But again, you know where he’s coming from, so set your next unit of 5 t-revs up to screen for the next charge.

Top of turn 4, rinse, repeat, but shoot to the other side, or the third wood, hopefully peeling another 2-3 wounds off through magic and an awakened wood. 

The idea is to maximize your movement and feed him 2-3 cheap 80 pt units making him 440 points of "didntdoverymuch", while the rest of your army takes out his army. 

It is possible to do this, but it takes a lot practice knowing where the best woods placement is, and will vary depending on the battleplan. It’s frustrating  for your enemy to play against but thats what he gets for taking Gristlegore. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Mirage8112

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

That's rough business.

[Austin]

Would it mitigate the mixed feelings on the Kurnoth scrolls if the new hero made one type battleline? 

Seems to me like either that will happen or a battalion will take advantage. Otherwise why change if the points are the same for all. 

[Aezeal]

18 hours ago, Aryann said:

Bow Hunters and Tree-Revenants almost officially useless. ☺️ Why would I bother when I can use much better Swords and Scythes or Dryads? I start to wonder shouldn't I regret ordering Looncurse. I did it mostly for Gloomspite side but still... 

Careful.. Mirage might hear you. Anyway same points but the rules on the rev's have improved. 

[Aezeal]

12 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

Tree Revenants at 80 points being able to teleport anywhere on the board are like mini heart renders, super valid for the cheap point cost. It's a shame to see Kurnoths with greatbows staying at 200, but maybe with re-roll 1s from a Arch Revenant and some other new things, they could see a return. 

If they command ability of the arch worked on shooting... then I'd see a solid first 2 rounds of shooting.. and then archie moving to buff melee. I'm wondering what will buff them enough to be worth it... if they could ignore look out sir maybe

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

11 minutes ago, Austin said:

Would it mitigate the mixed feelings on the Kurnoth scrolls if the new hero made one type battleline? 

Seems to me like either that will happen or a battalion will take advantage. Otherwise why change if the points are the same for all. 

Truth be told I'll put money on it there'll be a Stormhost-equivalent that will have Hunters as battleline, the same way the different FEC... houses or whatever did.

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

I’m a Dreadwood player. I have 5 units of spite revenants that I’m fairly pleased with how they perform in game. I like the way they play. I’ve also played the other battalion that’s everybody plays: Gnarlroot. It’s ok and I’ll play it occasionally for something different, but I don’t like it as much. I’m not going to come here and say that “Gnarlroot is worthless and nobody should play it and only play Dreadwood”.   Because I can clearly see somethings value even if it doesn’t fit my playstyle. I’ve also be interested in playing Ironbark and was working toward painting an Ironbark list before the news of the new BT dropped. Like I said, I play using (according to you) terrible units. I also smash face with them. 

I was a gnarlroot player and pretty happy with it. But after the change to unbind I've just been finding it very hard to cast much (been playing a lot against armies with bonus to unbind I'll admit) and went to 0 batallions and lately I've been trying winterleaf. I know dreadwood is good but originally thought gnarlroot was about equal and magic heavy trees just does more for me than sneaky trees if all things are equal :D. If things don't change to much I'll probably make my 4 looncurse revanants into spites and try dreadwood.. but I thing things will change (I'll keep them on sprue untill book lands).

PS you talked about scythes doign murder on 4+ save units.. but swords already where more effective on 4+ right.. would only increase with the MW output now. I know reach and reroll on the saves (more and more of those around) impact it but still..

[Mirage8112]

28 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

Truth be told I'll put money on it there'll be a Stormhost-equivalent that will have Hunters as battleline, the same way the different FEC... houses or whatever did.

I’d be surprised if they did that. Hunters are just so good as an elite unit people are already packing as many as they can into a list. With the FEC nobody was running more than 1 terrorgeist. Soon as they were battleline everybody was like “ooo these are actually good”.

15 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

I was a gnarlroot player and pretty happy with it. But after the change to unbind I've just been finding it very hard to cast much (been playing a lot against armies with bonus to unbind I'll admit) and went to 0 batallions and lately I've been trying winterleaf. I know dreadwood is good but originally thought gnarlroot was about equal and magic heavy trees just does more for me than sneaky trees if all things are equal :D. If things don't change to much I'll probably make my 4 looncurse revanants into spites and try dreadwood.. but I thing things will change (I'll keep them on sprue untill book lands).

I really liked Gnarlroot but stopped playing it often Disc of Tz came out. Legions of Nagash  only confirmed that we are not top dog when it comes to magic anymore. Magic is still usefull, but we cant count on being able to throw out heals when ever we want anymore. At least not without some serious foresight. 

Dreadwood is still super fun to play because of the stratagems. Providing you roll at least 2 it really gives you some serious flexibility. It also limits unbind to 12” in the first turn of the game which can be very frustrating if your opponent isn’t expecting it, usually allowing you to get an ample set-up and prevent yourself from getting overwhelmed in the first turn. Or you can just alpha-strike the hell out of everything which is also hilarious. 
 

15 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

PS you talked about scythes doign murder on 4+ save units.. but swords already where more effective on 4+ right.. would only increase with the MW output now. I know reach and reroll on the saves (more and more of those around) impact it but still..

On the old warscrolls 3 swords and 3 scythes were close enough on 4+ to be statistically equal (within .4 of a wound i think?) With the new update swords edge out scythes on 4+ by 2 wounds or so. 

However, thats assuming 3 swords vs 3 scythes. You neIver want to take swords in more than 3’s because its too easy to get handicapped by reach, scythes are easy to take in 6’s thanks to that extra inch. That’s why  say scythes are better than swords vs 4+ because the entire unit will attack before the other unit can swing back. Over the course of the game scythes will out perform swords in 6’s vs 4+ and better.  

Edited May 9, 2019 by Mirage8112

[JackStreicher]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:12 PM, Heksagon said:

It is me or Bowhunters now have 3 shots each? (New warscrolls on the community Page)

Nö they have 2 each.

[Fyrm]

Salutations. I was thinking of getting into Sylvaneth, and only then saw the looncurse box. So ya. Ironically I received my order of wyldwoods and a SC box the day the news about the new tome, plus new trees!, came out. But the fact that I can still use these trees I payed a lot of mons for is good. 

 

Anyways, I figured y’all might know the answer to something I was pondering. So, I haven’t had the time to assemble any trees yet, but I know the leaves are 2D. Hypothetically, if payed horizontal, could models stand on them? Could make for some interesting terrain setups, if you could have some trees with leafy platforms. Thought? Is this even legal?

[Mirage8112]

2 hours ago, Fyrm said:

Salutations. I was thinking of getting into Sylvaneth, and only then saw the looncurse box. So ya. Ironically I received my order of wyldwoods and a SC box the day the news about the new tome, plus new trees!, came out. But the fact that I can still use these trees I payed a lot of mons for is good. 

 

Anyways, I figured y’all might know the answer to something I was pondering. So, I haven’t had the time to assemble any trees yet, but I know the leaves are 2D. Hypothetically, if payed horizontal, could models stand on them? Could make for some interesting terrain setups, if you could have some trees with leafy platforms. Thought? Is this even legal?

It’s legal. You can do it if you want to. FAQ says all terrain is climbable. I’m not sure it would give you any particular advantage since they cant really reach anything up there, and you have to maintain coherency with all the models in a unit. 

[Zanzou]

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Oh, -1 to hit vs characters gotcha down? Protip: STOP SHOOTING AT CHARACTERS DUMMY.  T-revs are going to be our go-to for support character killing, Alarielle, Durthu or a treelords for monstrous character killing, drycha for hordes, ect ect.

This defeats the purpose of having a long range but very weak bow unit whose only strength was to slowly pick off things like low-wound characters.  I don't think bows need a buff, as long as they are not being pointed at the same amount as swords, and their insane output.

On average bows do 3 wounds on something that has a save of 5+ or 4+(being generous) for an ENTIRE TURN since they tend to only "fight" in their shooting phase.  With such low amount of wounds being dealt, taking down 5-6 wound heros was basically their niche.  You talk as if enemies will regularly try to come target your bows, but kurnoth hunters with bows shouldn't be first targetted because their damage output at 200 points is a non-threat and trying to chew through their wounds would just be a distraction from taking our objectives.  If you really want to threaten a sylvaneth army's damage, the best thing to do would be to completely ignore bows, kill other kurnoths, lower durthu's hp a bit immediately and kill our mages.  Otherwise play for objectives.

Now that other armies have battletomes and other tools they have practice with, I don't think tournaments this year will forgive sylvaneth players who rely on bows unless the battletome fixes this.

Edited May 10, 2019 by Zanzou

[Aeryenn]

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

If you won games solely on how much damage you do, you’d have a point, but thats not what wins games. Capturing objectives wins games. 

 

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

 If you don’t understand why that’s useful or what that means, that’s 75% of your problem right there.  

 

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

You’re probably doing it wrong and taking advice from people who are doing it wrong. 

 

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

I’ll also say that you might be bad at using them because they just don't fit your playstyle.

 

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

If you see T-revs as only being used in combat that make sense.

 

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

You want to load your list up with KH/dryads spam and nothing else? Go ahead.

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

Are you having fun with your May & Might Friend? Cause I don't want to disturb you.

By guessing and making assumptions you have no ground to make, you suggest I'm a bad tactician and create an image of a person that doesn't exist. Just because I didn't write 10 paragrafs about cooking and my tactics in detail doesn't mean I don't understand the basics.

10 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

 From what your saying you see the combat phase as being the only way to win games.

No. I did not say that. Nor I gave reasons to draw such a conclusion.

Don't picture me as a brute beefcake guy. I chose Sylvaneth for a reason.I understand what playstyle is expected from that army by design. My points were clearly referring just to usefulness of certain units.

I'm sure you have played more games than I did in AoS and that you have more experience. Your tournament history is sufficient proof. Although I still believe that both, KHwBows and Tree-Revenants can have better rules and/or stats. Simply better rules for what they are designed. Thay are not balanced well enough to perform the roles they are designed to. That was my whole point from the beginning. Not that Sylvaneth don't need ranged units or teleporting units for objective capturing. I will say it one more time: they are not good enough to perform that. In my opinion.

What would I change? For both KHwB and TR change the To Hit to 3+. Or give KHwB 3 attacks instead of 2 as people guessed when GW published the warscroll picture of them on w-c.com Or maybe give TR 2dmg for normal troops and 3dmg for Scion so that they could stand a chance to actually kill something tougher than skinny wizard. Make it a commando unit. Not a "run & die" unit they are. You can think otherwise, that's completely fine. I believe those two units need a boost. Someday we even might see one officially.

[Trevelyan]

3 hours ago, Zanzou said:

If you really want to threaten a sylvaneth army's damage, the best thing to do would be to completely ignore bows, kill other kurnoths, lower durthu's hp a bit immediately and kill our mages.  Otherwise play for objectives.

Now that other armies have battletomes and other tools they have practice with, I don't think tournaments this year will forgive sylvaneth players who rely on bows unless the battletome fixes this.

I don’t think that anyone is saying you rely on bow exclusively - they won’t kill everything and will likely serve time holding one objective rather than securing others - but they have a place. 

Your point about other players wanting to do some damage to Durthu early to push him down the damage table is valid, but it goes both ways. We will want to do the same to whatever behemoth the other side brings out, and the bow hunters are great for that. 

I find bows still have great value for any situation where you want to inflict modest damage early, or pick off stragglers/chaff. We’ve talked about using tree revenants as chaff charge blockers, but bow hunters are a reasonable counter to someone else trying something similar. 

[overtninja]

13 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

How DO we handle something like that?

Shoot it, spit spells at it, chaff it so it can't do much... when your opponent has a really strong model, especially a monster, you don't have to kill it if you can neutralize it.

Also, KH with Scythes obliterate monsters. It's what they are best at. I regularly face a Nurgle player who always uses a GUO and the other huge monster dudes, and 6 Scythe Kurnoth will chew one down in a turn reliably - doubly so with the new hero giving each one an extra swing.

I know that the new Sword Kurnoth are the new hotness, but I hate when I wound a lot and then my opponent makes a bunch of armor saves, so I've decided I like -2 rend more than anything. My thinking is that even with FNP saves, it still won't help you enough if I generate enough wounds.

That said, I'm going to build some Bow Kurnoth and go ham on the monsters and other rough hammer units I see. Ranged in AoS seems to be a tool for weakening units and monsters before you fight them, rather than a primary killing strategy, anyway.

[Xil]

The first time I used Bow Hunters I was surprised on how great they can be! Made me confused because I thought they would be a major poop. The first slavo annihilated 20 Reavers and thus removed the whole screen! (killed 2\3 of them, rest ran off board, he was just outside of inspiring presence)

Also I like to use them to cripple the Bloodthirster or Stardrake. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Xil

[Fyrm]

9 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

It’s legal. You can do it if you want to. FAQ says all terrain is climbable. I’m not sure it would give you any particular advantage since they cant really reach anything up there, and you have to maintain coherency with all the models in a unit. 

Yes, coherency would be a major problem. My main lines of reasoning were these two:

first, it would allow more room for larger units of dryads to fit wholly within the woods, along side other units potentially. Coherency is 1” horizontal, 6” vertical, unless I’m mistaken. Not a huge use, but something to keep in mind. 

Second, it could make a hiding place for a little hero. Don’t want that branchwraith in combat? Port her to the treetops, where nothing can get to her. Sure, she can’t do much up there, but she should be able to buff or summon, and if the platform is <1” from an edge she could see out that edge. Turn the woods into an even harder bunker for her, perhaps. 

I doubt this’ll be an end all be all strategy, but it is a potential tactic I could use to my advantage, if I build the trees properly, so I figured I should check to see if I need to be building the trees properly or not. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Fyrm

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Xil said:

The first time I used Bow Hunters I was surprised on how great they can be! Made me confused because I thought they would be a major poop. The first slavo annihilated 20 Reavers and thus removed the whole screen! (killed 2\3 of them, rest ran off board, he was just outside of inspiring presence)

Also I like to use them to cripple the Bloodthirster or Stardrake. 

I'm going to try it again tonight.. 3x thirster of IR and 1x wrath of Khorne. Then 4 units of 5 hounds and 2 slaughterpriest. Unbinds all around.
Sadly... Thirsters aren't THAT much crippled even at 1 wound, I hope I can take out more than last time.

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, overtninja said:

Shoot it, spit spells at it, chaff it so it can't do much... when your opponent has a really strong model, especially a monster, you don't have to kill it if you can neutralize it.

Also, KH with Scythes obliterate monsters. It's what they are best at. I regularly face a Nurgle player who always uses a GUO and the other huge monster dudes, and 6 Scythe Kurnoth will chew one down in a turn reliably - doubly so with the new hero giving each one an extra swing.

I know that the new Sword Kurnoth are the new hotness, but I hate when I wound a lot and then my opponent makes a bunch of armor saves, so I've decided I like -2 rend more than anything. My thinking is that even with FNP saves, it still won't help you enough if I generate enough wounds.

That said, I'm going to build some Bow Kurnoth and go ham on the monsters and other rough hammer units I see. Ranged in AoS seems to be a tool for weakening units and monsters before you fight them, rather than a primary killing strategy, anyway.

But.. no saves against mortal wounds... doesn't that sound lovely

[Xil]

I think it's a huuuge difference when something hits you with flat 6 damage or D6 damage. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by Xil

[Nox]

 

[Sigwarus]

Above poster is right though, we  need  new tools to fight gristlegore and bloodthirsters. In the early days of Sylvaneth I used bow hunters, TLA and Durthus shooting attacks go take out larger threats. The combined fire often were enough. But I guess my loremastered Durthu made it mostlyby himself.

[Grimbok]

I am with Aryann with this one. Lots of ****** by meta chasing tournament players. Bow kurnoths er grossly overcosted or underpowered. Tree Revenants do not fullfill the role of an elite infantry unit.  Five in a box, statline worse than clanrats. Utter garbage as the “soldiers” of the sylvaneth. A unit or two as battleline tax and objective grabber, sure. Nothing more. How sad, for such great models. 

And I only play casual, using the models because I like them, but tree revs do nothing but a throw away unit. Utter garbage, again forcing us to use crappy old dryad spam, eith old crappy models. 

 

Seriously, how can that compete at all against the new armies? Sure, there might be stupid OP combos in the new book, that tournament players will use and say that sylvaneth will be competitive, but for casual players it is just sad.

 

Grimbok