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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

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11 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

True, as it is a deprived drove in Hedonites army is the only place I can see taking them, exploding 6s make the Great Axes terrifying especially against heros with artifacts (re-roll to hit). Also Doom Bulls work great in Hedonites since they give you lots of wounds for a low cost (ideal for Depravity).

I think if they go to 140 and assuming Enlightened on disks go up to 160+ they will see much more play. The problem at the moment is they are a comparable option to Dragon Ogors and Enlightened, but more expensive and slower than either. If you want hard hitting eites, take Enlightened on Disks. If you want a more tanky unit with decent damage output, take Dragon Ogors.

Bullgors are actually strongest in Khorne. Extra attacks are so easy to achieve in Khorne via Bloodsecrator or Wrathmongers, and are a bigger bonus than double hits on a 6. And Khorne easily gives them much-needed +1 hit with Slaughterpriests. And on top of that the battalion benefit of rerolls of 1 to hit and 1/game rerolls wounds is better than Depraved Drove's benefit.

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16 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Bullgors are actually strongest in Khorne. Extra attacks are so easy to achieve in Khorne via Bloodsecrator or Wrathmongers, and are a bigger bonus than double hits on a 6. And Khorne easily gives them much-needed +1 hit with Slaughterpriests. And on top of that the battalion benefit of rerolls of 1 to hit and 1/game rerolls wounds is better than Depraved Drove's benefit.

Yup, they are also good in Khorne but I'm a big fan of magic, so wouldn't want to do that myself ;)

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41 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Yup, they are also good in Khorne but I'm a big fan of magic, so wouldn't want to do that myself ;)

Prayers and judgements are just magic by another name. ;)

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20 minutes ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Prayers and judgements are just magic by another name. ;)

Which cannot be banned, so technically it’s much better then spells.

and we even have the old better version of mystic shield😀

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Khorne is very good. Nurgle can be pretty decent as well since you can get run and charge and a higher base movement. For pure BoC I like Gavespawn for the extra attacks and stay down a few points for that triumph. Pop all command points on extra attacks on one turn and use the triumph. The target usually dies. Also a Doombull at damage 5 and near the herdstone may as well be dishing out mortal wounds a lot of the time. I would not take a unit of 12 unless it was a crazy large game. It is just too unwieldy. They might drop a few points. If they were to get buffed the +1 to hit would be great. I doubt they would get the extra attack as well without jumping way up in points. Their damage is already pretty high as long as you hit. It is the making them hit that is the tough part. That 4+ makes it very swingy.

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15 hours ago, Myrdin said:

I would like to see:(warhounds 60 pts pretty pleeeease).

 

I think at 60 points they'd be too good. I know I'd sacrifice little else. The big thing with warhounds for me is that they are the only unit of 60x35 bases with one wound. I don't know how you'd repoint them at 2 wounds each, but I think they could really do with it.

 

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Points may legitimately change, but I just don't see rules changes being on the table. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I think at 60 points they'd be too good. I know I'd sacrifice little else. The big thing with warhounds for me is that they are the only unit of 60x35 bases with one wound. I don't know how you'd repoint them at 2 wounds each, but I think they could really do with it.

 

I get your point but let me offer an alternative view. Centigors are the same price,  and are superior in pretty much every single way, other than screening (since its 5 2W models instead of 10 1W ones). Better damage output, durability due to save, can have benefits of a command group, and most importantly is much much faster with or even without a Shaman, which does compensate a lot on the "not as good of a screen" part, since they can keep up and ahead of pretty much anything else we have.  I mean there is no comparison between them and the Warhounds.

Alternatively - Chariots and Razorgors 60 and 40 pts. I use those as throw away units. Both are still better than Warhounds.

The only thing Warhnouds have going for them is the 10 model screen, but with no save, and a single wound, there ARE better ways to screen even at 80 pts, albeit a bit more finicky (Razorgors are pretty solid flank protectors, you get 3 as individual units and position them with 3" gaps, this way you can pretty much cover some odd 15" of a flank).

Dont get me wrong, I would love for them to be at least mildly useful, but there is not one, but several better units that can do just the same, though in a slightly different way. 60 pts Warhounds, I believe would draw a good bargain and make people think much harder whether to take them or not.

Edited by Myrdin
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3 hours ago, Myrdin said:

I get your point but let me offer an alternative view. Centigors are the same price,  and are superior in pretty much every single way, other than screening (since its 5 2W models instead of 10 1W ones). Better damage output, durability due to save, can have benefits of a command group, and most importantly is much much faster with or even without a Shaman, which does compensate a lot on the "not as good of a screen" part, since they can keep up and ahead of pretty much anything else we have.  I mean there is no comparison between them and the Warhounds.

Alternatively - Chariots and Razorgors 60 and 40 pts. I use those as throw away units. Both are still better than Warhounds.

The only thing Warhnouds have going for them is the 10 model screen, but with no save, and a single wound, there ARE better ways to screen even at 80 pts, albeit a bit more finicky (Razorgors are pretty solid flank protectors, you get 3 as individual units and position them with 3" gaps, this way you can pretty much cover some odd 15" of a flank).

Dont get me wrong, I would love for them to be at least mildly useful, but there is not one, but several better units that can do just the same, though in a slightly different way. 60 pts Warhounds, I believe would draw a good bargain and make people think much harder whether to take them or not.

Oh absolutely. As I said, I don't know how you'd make them work at 2 wounds each. But at 60 points I think they'd get pretty close to auto take. I always want a shaman and a sac outlet at the herdstone. At the moment that ends up being ungors. If warhounds dropped to 60 I would definitely use them. They would basically work as a sac outlet and a turn one screen. You can daisy chain them along your front line leading to the herdstone. You have like 3 feet of screen. 

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At 60 pts, they'd be a great unit and likely would be popular. But they're still not battleline (there's alternative screening options which are), they're still not present in any battalion (meaning they increase drops, which several alternatives do not), and aside from denial, they don't actually do a lot. 

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I mean if I has to rewrite some things, here are some of my ideas for Fan Rule Buffs to make standalone BoC more interesting.  This is just some of my half baked ideas.

 

Allegiance Changes

Spoiler

Change Bloodgorge to “killed any enemy models” rather than “destroyed any enemy units”.

 

Greatfray Changes

 

Spoiler

Allherd

Change Booming Roar to “You can use this command ability at the start of your hero phase. If you do so, you receive 1 Primordial Call Point. If the model using this command ability is your general, instead you received D3 Primordial Call points.

Change Dominator to “Once per Turn this model may use Inspiring Presence, At the Double, or Forward to Victory command abilities without using a command point.”

Change Blade of the Desecrator to “Improve the Rend characteristic of that weapon by 1. In addition, add 1 to the Attack characteristic of that weapon by 1 for every 10 models in the target enemy unit to a maximum of +3.”

Darkwalkers

Change Desolate Shard to “Once per battle, at the start of your hero phase, the bearer can use the Desolate Shard if they are within 6” of a terrain feature. If they do, roll a dice for each enemy unit within 3” of that terrain feature. On a 4+ that enemy unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds. In addition, for the rest of the game that terrain feature becomes Deadly for enemy units.

 

 

Battalions

Spoiler

 

Marauding Brayherd

Drop point cost to 130

Drop required number of Gor units to 2.

Change Ferocious Despoilers to “When Units in this battalion make a Charge roll, if they roll a 1 or a 2 on any dice, they instead treat it as a 3.”

Hungering Warherd

Change Bloodscent to “Units in this battalion add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of their melee weapons on a turn in which it made a charge”.

Thunderscorn Warherd

Drop point cost to 120

Change Raging Storm to “Units in this battalion heal D3 Wounds and enemy units suffer D3 Mortal Wounds from Beneath the Tempest”.

 

Units
 

Spoiler

 

Drop point cost of Gors to 70/180 and change Anarchy and Mayhem to “15 or more models” instead of “20 or more models”.

Drop point cost of Bullgors to 140

Cygor gains Desecrated Boulder: “Add 1 to hit rolls for the Desecrated Boulder attack that target enemy units with 10 or more models.”

Centigors are Battleline in Beasts of Chaos army if the general is a Beastlord or Greatbray Shaman.

Thunderscorn Models gain Heirs of Azyr: Roll a dice each time a model with this rule suffers a Wound or Mortal Wound from a Stormcast Eternals unit. On a 6, that Wound or Mortal Wound is negated.

Change Beneath the Tempest to Raging Storm’s original effect (except it affects all friendly Thunderscorn units rather than battalion) and add the condition “As long as your army has any Dragon Ogor Shaggoths”.

Drop point cost of Tzaangor Skyfires to 180

Drop point cost of Chaos Warhounds to 70/180 and they are Battleline in Beasts of Chaos army.

Drop point cost of Jabberslythes to 150.

Increase Save Characteristic of Cockatrices to 5+.

 

 

Endless Spells

Spoiler

 

Ravening Direflock:  Change Black-souled Cowardice to “The player who set it up” instead of “The player whose turn is taking place”.

Drop point cost of Doomblast Dirgehorn to 40.

 

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Posted (edited)

Lol for a second I though what you posted was an actual update for the GHB and was super excited :D

Good changes overall, would be nice to see that. Especially the Allherd stuff. Desolate shard for Darkwalkers still needs some love though

Wouldn't make Centigors into Battle line. And this is crucial. It would completely overshadow any other battle line choice. Especially the Gors and Warhounds, despite them getting buffed slightly. This wouldn't be good for the health of the army as a whole.

I could certainly get behind most of this without a second thought.

Edited by Myrdin
excited not exalted... I am not a Chaos Champion heh :D

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Posted (edited)

Hello fellow beasts,

may I politely ask for some feedback to a list I have in mind. It is intended for a medium sized tournament. My first, not intending to win it but would love to not be the last in ranking :D

My collection is somewhat limited and I am not sure if the new ghb drops early enough that the point changes are used or not. 

Question: can allies use artifacts from malign sorcery?

 

Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos
- Greatfray: Gavespawn
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Beastlord (90)
- Artefact: Mutating Gnarlblade  
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- General
- Trait: Unravelling Aura  
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Vicious Stranglethorns
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Wild Rampage
Chaos Lord on Manticore (250)
- Blade & Lance

- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet or -3 Renes blade on d3 dmg weapon

- Mark of Nurgle (3+ save)
- Allies



Battleline
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Gors (80)
- Gor-Blades & Beastshields
10 x Ungors (60)
- Mauls & Half-Shields

Units
10 x Ungor Raiders (80)
10 x Ungor Raiders (80)
30 x Tzaangors of Beasts of Chaos(480)

Behemoths
Chimera (240)

Battalions
Phantasmagoria of Fate (200)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 250 / 400
Wounds: 159
 

 

I have 10 more gors, 1 ghorgon, 1 cygor, 2 tzaangor shamans, 6 skyfires, 3 spawns, 3 enlightened on disk

3 drops, can span quite large area on the board and pressure the enemy quickly.

what do you think about the manticore? Either to defend my home base (amulet) or offensively with charge lance + blade -3 rend. He is fast, quite tanky, can hold objective when heroes can do it only and might serve as distraction carnifex if necessary. Might even work closely with Chimera on a flank.

Quite mobile and good in board control. Tzaangors can tank an objective and might charge turn one when enemy leaves space. 

Hoping so bad for the new paints as all the non tzeentch beasts are still grey :D

Edited by Myzyrael

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On 5/16/2019 at 2:42 AM, Myrdin said:

Wouldn't make Centigors into Battle line. And this is crucial. It would completely overshadow any other battle line choice. Especially the Gors and Warhounds, despite them getting buffed slightly. This wouldn't be good for the health of the army as a whole.

Yea I suppose.

I just want more centigor love! I need new models!

 

On 5/16/2019 at 1:23 PM, Myzyrael said:

Question: can allies use artifacts from malign sorcery?

I believe that nothing technically stops allies from taking items, it's just that they normally can't take items since GA items get locked out. But I never really thought about it.

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22 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I believe that nothing technically stops allies from taking items, it's just that they normally can't take items since GA items get locked out. But I never really thought about it.

From the Core Rules Designer Commentary:
image.png.f2e96a21a54e9ef11a8f288358a4ebc7.png

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On 5/16/2019 at 1:51 AM, kenshin620 said:

I mean if I has to rewrite some things, here are some of my ideas for Fan Rule Buffs to make standalone BoC more interesting.  This is just some of my half baked ideas.

 

Allegiance Changes

  Hide contents

Change Bloodgorge to “killed any enemy models” rather than “destroyed any enemy units”. cool, I like it and it would make Bullgors a wee bit more durable

 

 

Greatfray Changes

 

  Hide contents

Allherd

 

Change Booming Roar to “You can use this command ability at the start of your hero phase. If you do so, you receive 1 Primordial Call Point. If the model using this command ability is your general, instead you received D3 Primordial Call points. it does not specify it has to be a hero using it, just needs the general to be alive. maybe it could be "if you spend 1 CP you receive 1 PCP. if you spend more than one you receive 1 CPC for the forst and D3 for any other CP you spend on that phase"....?

 

Change Dominator to “Once per Turn this model may use Inspiring Presence, At the Double, or Forward to Victory command abilities without using a command point.” I don t mind the current one but this looks tasty

 

Change Blade of the Desecrator to “Improve the Rend characteristic of that weapon by 1. In addition, add 1 to the Attack characteristic of that weapon by 1 for every 10 models in the target enemy unit to a maximum of +3.” solid. althought I think that all the freys are played for just one or two reasons and not all the aspects of it should be OP, strong or even acceptable. summoning is an already good reason to play this frey.

 

Darkwalkers

 

Change Desolate Shard to “Once per battle, at the start of your hero phase, the bearer can use the Desolate Shard if they are within 6” of a terrain feature. If they do, roll a dice for each enemy unit within 3” of that terrain feature. On a 4+ that enemy unit suffers D3 Mortal Wounds. In addition, for the rest of the game that terrain feature becomes Deadly for enemy units. the artefact is usless anyway, it should be usable everytime you want instead only once per game, you could actually gimmick a good list with all the other abilities and spell we have that interact with terrains

 

 

 

 

Battalions

  Hide contents

 

Marauding Brayherd

 

Drop point cost to 130

 

Drop required number of Gor units to 2.

 

Change Ferocious Despoilers to “When Units in this battalion make a Charge roll, if they roll a 1 or a 2 on any dice, they instead treat it as a 3.” at this point it might very well be like the skeletons one when does not matter what you roll if you roll below 6, the unit will always count as having rolled at least a 6.

 

Hungering Warherd

Change Bloodscent to “Units in this battalion add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of their melee weapons on a turn in which it made a charge”. I like the 6" pile in. the problem is that it does not changes the criteria for eligibility to pile in (it is still 3") THAT is the bit that should change.

 

Thunderscorn Warherd

Drop point cost to 120

 

Change Raging Storm to “Units in this battalion heal D3 Wounds and enemy units suffer D3 Mortal Wounds from Beneath the Tempest”.

 

 

 

Units
 

  Hide contents

 

Drop point cost of Gors to 70/180 and change Anarchy and Mayhem to “15 or more models” instead of “20 or more models”. Just make it 10 or more. every other unit in the game that has similar rule starts the bonuses from 10 and not from 20 (ok dryads from 12 but it is an old writing and tzaangors is 9 because tzeentch). also if they are 20 or more they gain +2 A/+1 to W

 

Drop point cost of Bullgors to 140 yes! although I would be happier if they actually changed something in the warscroll (like 2" range on the great axes or +1A to all profiles or -1 rend on the horns(they are HORN FFS!!!!!!!)). I always said I d rather pay 200 points and have a units that I can relay on to deal good dmg than a swingy unit that cost few points.

 

Cygor gains Desecrated Boulder: “Add 1 to hit rolls for the Desecrated Boulder attack that target enemy units with 10 or more models.” So, first of all it should deal MW even if the enemy wizard fails to cast the spell. that would actually make the Cygor a threat for the enemy qho at this point has to actively take decisions. Second of all, what you said is wise as it will give us an semi-anti-horde mechanics we do not have; although fluffwise it does not make much sense; Cygor is a wizard hunter, it is blind otherewize and does not matter the size of the units it shoots at.

 

Centigors are Battleline in Beasts of Chaos army if the general is a Beastlord or Greatbray Shaman. it would overwelm other Battleline choices like gors and ungors. I rather have 10 bulllets cenaturs running across the board with the potential of holding ANY unit and zone the field greatly then 10 ungors which are only good for roasting.

 

Thunderscorn Models gain Heirs of Azyr: Roll a dice each time a model with this rule suffers a Wound or Mortal Wound from a Stormcast Eternals unit. On a 6, that Wound or Mortal Wound is negated. fluffy, I like it. VENGENCE for KOLEK!!!

 

Change Beneath the Tempest to Raging Storm’s original effect (except it affects all friendly Thunderscorn units rather than battalion) and add the condition “As long as your army has any Dragon Ogor Shaggoths”.

Drop point cost of Tzaangor Skyfires to 180

 

Drop point cost of Chaos Warhounds to 70/180 and they are Battleline in Beasts of Chaos army. more than making them battleline I would include them (and this is valid for every Monster of chaos in the book) in the battalions as a 0-2 choice or 0-3

 

Drop point cost of Jabberslythes to 150. 140! tbh now that it has an average of 5 MW dealt and  is only on allocated wounds (it means that because of shooting or magic it gets into combat with one wound and it dies immediately, it only gets to roll 1 dice to see if  it bleeds instead of one per unsaved wound like it was before) it could very well go back to 120!

 

Increase Save Characteristic of Cockatrices to 5+. can do, thb I am not massively familiar with this lil chicken. I know it is a mini chimera but it is not meant to survive anyway and 6+ or 5+ does not really impact in this game.

 

 

 

Endless Spells

  Hide contents

 

Ravening Direflock:  Change Black-souled Cowardice to “The player who set it up” instead of “The player whose turn is taking place”.

 

Drop point cost of Doomblast Dirgehorn to 40. very much due considering Geminids has the same effect and more and it costs 40

Wildfire Taurus point drop to 80 (100 is the cost of the Purple sun and that nasty ball on a base deals a ****** loads of MW and swallows monsters whole, things that our Taurus cannot do)

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

So guys a question for those of you who have a Seraphon army.

Any idea which Seraphon unit Head would fit the Dragon Ogres torsos ?

Would normal Lizardmen be fine, or do would Krogixors be better ?

I have a strong dislike of Ogres and I cant those heads they going on. Plus I would like mine to look a bit more bestial, to go along with the Shaggoth model I have prepared (no not the super cool one thats too big to fit a DO base. The smaller, but still cool looking one 😛  kudos to those who put the breadcrumbs together and figure it out hehe ^^ )

Edited by Myrdin

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I think Krox heads would fit a bit better. And really Kroxigors arent that much bigger methinks, maybe 5-10% bigger than saurus.

Or maybe try to use Cold One heads?

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I think Krox heads would fit a bit better. And really Kroxigors arent that much bigger methinks, maybe 5-10% bigger than saurus.

Or maybe try to use Cold One heads?

Cold ones.... I think those might be really good actually !

I am unsure about the scale of their heads compared to DO, thus I have not included them in the equation, though I have briefly considered them for a sec.

Any idea if Cold ones come with extra heads ? Or is the sprue done in a 1 to 1 head-body ratio ?

 

EDIT: Can anyone recommend any alternatives for the heads ? Looking at the prices and the fact that bits shops no longer have these in stock, I really dont wanna buy the whole miniature just for the head.

If you can recommend any good 3rd party that makes Lizardmen, and / or sell individual bits like Heads, I`d be more than happy to look at them.

Edited by Myrdin

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Posted (edited)

Got a 24 player tournament coming up this weekend, here's the list!

1 drop lists are so rare now, it can give you a good advantage in certain scenarios, especially the shifting orb one.

I gotta say, i've played this list before in another event and managed 3-0, I feel like it has great potential. What do you guys think? Any feedback?

Phantasmagoria of Fate(1).pdf

Edited by Xasto

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I'm on a 2 drop list for my tourney this weekend, looking forward to getting the beasts on the field.

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12 hours ago, Xasto said:

Got a 24 player tournament coming up this weekend, here's the list!

1 drop lists are so rare now, it can give you a good advantage in certain scenarios, especially the shifting orb one.

I gotta say, i've played this list before in another event and managed 3-0, I feel like it has great potential. What do you guys think? Any feedback?

Phantasmagoria of Fate(1).pdf 752.31 kB · 14 downloads

Looks solid - I'm curious how well do the 10 Tzaangors usually do? I most often ran them in a big 30 block to maximize their tarpit/durable nature. But other than that I see a great MSU list with lots of small but very points efficient hammers and of course the Taurus which is effectively a must take for me. 

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6 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Looks solid - I'm curious how well do the 10 Tzaangors usually do? I most often ran them in a big 30 block to maximize their tarpit/durable nature. But other than that I see a great MSU list with lots of small but very points efficient hammers and of course the Taurus which is effectively a must take for me. 

I've run 10 man Tzaangor a fair bit. I actually like them a fair bit. Generally you get one nice damaging charge, then they are a pain to kill. It's a lot of work to chop through them all 

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14 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Looks solid - I'm curious how well do the 10 Tzaangors usually do? I most often ran them in a big 30 block to maximize their tarpit/durable nature. But other than that I see a great MSU list with lots of small but very points efficient hammers and of course the Taurus which is effectively a must take for me. 

 

7 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I've run 10 man Tzaangor a fair bit. I actually like them a fair bit. Generally you get one nice damaging charge, then they are a pain to kill. It's a lot of work to chop through them all 

Exactly this. They can do well on a charge, I mostly use them to take forward objectives and they've been a real pain for my opponent to get rid of.

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