AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[SwampHeart]

50 minutes ago, Worm said:

One question if enemy is within Heaetstone aura and the umit has more than one save, like +4 armor and with shilds special save on +6, how or what save is reduced by 1, both armor and special meanining only plus 5 armor remains or I choose which save is reduced by 1 or my oponent...?

It would only affect the base armor save - any 'save' taken after damage isn't termed a 'save' in game terms. 

[Dracothjay]

Guys, let’s stop the pointless bickering. This is an open forum where, naturally, opinions will clash.  

I for one rate bullgors quite high, whereas the next BOC enthusiast will rate them quite poor. Doesn’t effect me, I don’t care as my experiences with them have lead to great things.

Gors. I believe they aren’t anything to get hyped over. I ALWAYS take ungors/ungor raiders instead of Gors for the efficient point cost and also for their smaller bases, which allows me to pack more into a smaller area, especially on objectives where the rule set “more models within X inches” comes into play. Also they are a brilliant screen. 

Lets turn this thread back to enthusiastic topics for BOC players. 

[SwampHeart]

11 minutes ago, Dracothjay said:

Also they are a brilliant screen. 

They're the best screen for the 'safe' enlightened trick. 

[Skoll]

25 minutes ago, Dracothjay said:

Guys, let’s stop the pointless bickering. This is an open forum where, naturally, opinions will clash.  

I for one rate bullgors quite high, whereas the next BOC enthusiast will rate them quite poor. Doesn’t effect me, I don’t care as my experiences with them have lead to great things.

Gors. I believe they aren’t anything to get hyped over. I ALWAYS take ungors/ungor raiders instead of Gors for the efficient point cost and also for their smaller bases, which allows me to pack more into a smaller area, especially on objectives where the rule set “more models within X inches” comes into play. Also they are a brilliant screen. 

Lets turn this thread back to enthusiastic topics for BOC players. 

Clearly the way to make bullgors work is to drown your opponent in them. 1600 points is 30 bullgors , just push through with sheer beef

[Myrdin]

24 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

They're the best screen for the 'safe' enlightened trick. 

Was that with the on foot, or on disc version ?

Actually thinking about this... Running a line of 20 ungors with 6 dismounted Enlightened semi bubble-wrapped by them, and a Bray Shaman to make them surge forward....

Hmmm...

120+200+100. 420 Points. Thats not bad, considering the damage output the Enlightened can do, and the 20 Ablative wounds-Ungors to soak a round or two of punishment.  And by the time they are dead, the Enlightened should have dealt with the opposing unit anyway. With a bit of luck the Shaman will pull off  Wild Rampage or Tendrils of Atrophy to help out a little.

 

Now this is something I have not seen mentioned anywhere but - What Base size do you guys use for Tzaangor Enlightened on foot ?

Infantry Tzaangors are on 32mm ones. Enlightened on discs use the 40mm, but what about those days, when they stove the disc into a garage and take a refreshing walk around the neighborhood ?

Edited October 31, 2018 by Myrdin

[SwampHeart]

Just now, Myrdin said:

Was that with the on foot, or on disc version ?

I've done both, I'm a pretty big fan of enlightened - I own 9 on foot and on disc.
 

1 minute ago, Myrdin said:

Now this is something I have not seen mentioned anywhere but - What Base size do you guys use for Tzaangor Enlightened on foot ?

I use 40mm - that's what the basing FAQ says to use. 

[decker_cky]

Enlightened on foot are still on 40mm bases. 

Also, because most of their attacks are 2", Enlightened on foot are the one unit that can be screened by non-ungors.

[CharnelChimera]

7 hours ago, Myrdin said:

Always equip them with Draconinc Cleaver. The dual blades can work depending on the setup and enemies you face, but the Crusher is pure garbage weapon. No rend no increased range, and reduces you attacks to 3. Just dont)

I think the crusher is the better choice if you plan dumping command points via the Gavespawn ability, plus sundering blades. The jump from 0 to -1 rend feels better than -1 to -2. Leveraging the extra attacks on damage 2 weapons just seems real fun. You sort of do need a shaggoth baby sitting, however. I'm considering running Crushers with that in mind in a squad of 6. The 2 inch range would be nice, but as 1" should reach over a 25mm base in not too miffed.

 

I'll admit that Tzaangor Enlightened are almost better in every case, sadly, even with Gavespawn command ability spam.

 

There's some realm spell interactions you can do with paired weapons as well, but it doesn't seem as spicy.

[decker_cky]

1 hour ago, Skoll said:

Clearly the way to make bullgors work is to drown your opponent in them. 1600 points is 30 bullgors , just push through with sheer beef

I like your thinking. Need some doombulls, at least minimal anti-magic, and some models to sacrifice to the herdstone, so 30 probably isn't reasonable, but how about this?

3 doombulls

7x3 bullgors

10 gors

10 ungors

cygor

Brass despoiler

1990 pts

[Skoll]

6 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

I like your thinking. Need some doombulls, at least minimal anti-magic, and some models to sacrifice to the herdstone, so 30 probably isn't reasonable, but how about this?

3 doombulls

7x3 bullgors

10 gors

10 ungors

cygor

Brass despoiler

1990 pts

Id have made a comment about having to go ham instead, sadly ham is not made of cows

[SwampHeart]

23 minutes ago, CharnelChimera said:

plus sundering blades

Has anyone had a lot of success with this spell? Being a 7+ to cast and an army with 0 bonuses to cast I feel really reluctant to rely on using it. 

[Myrdin]

17 minutes ago, CharnelChimera said:

I think the crusher is the better choice if you plan dumping command points via the Gavespawn ability, plus sundering blades. The jump from 0 to -1 rend feels better than -1 to -2. Leveraging the extra attacks on damage 2 weapons just seems real fun. You sort of do need a shaggoth baby sitting, however. I'm considering running Crushers with that in mind in a squad of 6. The 2 inch range would be nice, but as 1" should reach over a 25mm base in not too miffed.

 

I'll admit that Tzaangor Enlightened are almost better in every case, sadly, even with Gavespawn command ability spam.

 

There's some realm spell interactions you can do with paired weapons as well, but it doesn't seem as spicy.

The reason why I think the Crusher is really bad is that it does not only cut your number of attacks, but also offers no rend whatsoever.
Now this depends strongly on your local meta. Mine is LOADED with Stormcast Eternal, so anything that does not have a rend, is automatically disregarded when building a list (I am not super competitive, but I dont want to be a cakewalk for my opponent either.... I had enough of that playing WFB and 9thA. In AoS the Beastmen are actually a force to reckon ).

And against non armored opponents like DoK, I think the Dual Blades are better option. This is the one thing where I think the Bullgors are better. -2 Dmg 3 on their great weapons. Yes worse hit rate and one less attack, but that -2 rend is extremely important.

 

Yeah I know.

The spice is not really there.

But I think if the crusher was DMG3 or Rend 1.... Then with their better profiles and lower cost they would straight up sh*t all over Bullgors, the potential 1in6 MW be damned.

The 2" Range I think does factor in when you consider their base sizes. And Its nice to have the option of running 4+ Save Gor screen (though then again... ungors are better for that.).

I Think the Crusher *might* work, if you could get them a consistent -1 Rend, but magic is fickle and you cant ever fully rely on it.

Personally I would have made Crushers a -1 Rend, but With 4+ to Hit.

[Popisdead]

On 10/29/2018 at 8:33 PM, Agent of Chaos said:

390 points is a stupid amount to spend on battalions however it makes for a two drop list and Gore Pilgrims ensures some reliability out of the Priests and extends the range of the banner (because if you arent getting those buffs onto the Bullgors what was the whole point?).

Exactly.  I would drop the Bloodwarriors, 3rd Slaughterpriest, perhaps the Bloodstoker, in hopes of also getting in a Ghorgon.  The Formation costs to do this is ridiculous for the benefit essentially of +1A on 9 Bullgors.  I would almost be tempted to drop the 2nd Slaughterpriest as well.

On 10/29/2018 at 11:48 PM, Kramer said:

Yes and no, people are mathhammering  everything to death and claiming everything left right and centre is utter trash. 

1. Unless you want to go for the #1 spot in the most elite tournaments. Ignore all that. I’m convinced we’ll see enough lists  perform very well in the next few months. We’re just not a kill them all army. I’m my mind we’re an objectives army with great speed, cheap bodies, some relative hard hitting units, options for synergies and a whole lot of options in general. A mind shift needs to happen for some players because being an objective army  doesn’t really line up with the fluff 

2. Every time you read ‘sub optimal choice’ Or other cringe terms like that. It will be a perfectly fine unit for local play. You’ll Do better by improving your tactical choices rather than min maxing everything. Those lessons not only apply with Beast of Chaos but with every army you’ll ever Play. 

3. The saltiness is real... and everywhere. I collect several ( armies and in every single thread about those armies... people are b*tching that their favourite force isn’t strong enough. Or, in the case of Daughters of Khaine, that the army will be nerfed and GW is doing everything wrong  because  bla bla bla. 

Learn to read past peoples complaining or else it will hurt your excitement for your army. 

At least that’s what I’m trying to do, but it’s getting harder and harder on this forum. 

 

 

On 10/30/2018 at 12:17 AM, Dracothjay said:

I applaud you mate. What I see a lot of is not so much hatred toward bullgors, but a few verbal slaps about how they aren’t that great and not worth their weight in points. Well, I totally disagree.  I use tonnes of bullgors and I can honestly say bullgors are brutal. I’ll admit, they can’t take a slap but Christ, they can dish out the hurt. They always do my heavy lifting. I think the issue people get confused with is a one fits all type unit. Bullgors you really have to pick your fights. 

I've been doing fairly well in a moderate climate of tournament meta with a Warherd army.    And you play them for the -2 rend and 3 dmg and use other tools instead of the Herdstone/spells rend.

On 10/30/2018 at 5:57 AM, pforson said:

My 1250 point 1 drop Brass Despoilers list : 

Doombull, Beastlord, 3x3 Bullgors, 2x5 Centigor, Ghorgon, Brass Despoilers.

I've been experimenting with various command traits / artifacts, but not settled on anything yet.

It's really straight forward to play (which I like). Basically take objectives / screen with the centigor and try to get the charge with the Bulls. Play/hope for the double turn to wreck face. They are certainly not Tier 1 and will lose against any top tournament list, but against similar melee focussed armies (khorne, Ironjawz) they can hold their own.

If I were to expand to 2000 then I would bulk up one of the units of Bullgors to 6 and then add as many Chimera as possible. 

I've struggled with Bullgors at 6-large (they just seem like needless wounds) especially as I prefer to send 3 Bullgors, a Doombull and a Ghorgon at the enemy instead of 6 buffed Bullgors.

[Skoll]

49 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Exactly.  I would drop the Bloodwarriors, 3rd Slaughterpriest, perhaps the Bloodstoker, in hopes of also getting in a Ghorgon.  The Formation costs to do this is ridiculous for the benefit essentially of +1A on 9 Bullgors.  I would almost be tempted to drop the 2nd Slaughterpriest as well.

 

 

I've been doing fairly well in a moderate climate of tournament meta with a Warherd army.    And you play them for the -2 rend and 3 dmg and use other tools instead of the Herdstone/spells rend.

I've struggled with Bullgors at 6-large (they just seem like needless wounds) especially as I prefer to send 3 Bullgors, a Doombull and a Ghorgon at the enemy instead of 6 buffed Bullgors.

I only take 6 bullgors for stacking buffs on them and contacting multiple units at once, the hope being they break more than their points worth even if they die to a man.

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 hours ago, Myrdin said:

The reason why I think the Crusher is really bad is that it does not only cut your number of attacks, but also offers no rend whatsoever.
Now this depends strongly on your local meta. Mine is LOADED with Stormcast Eternal, so anything that does not have a rend, is automatically disregarded when building a list (I am not super competitive, but I dont want to be a cakewalk for my opponent either.... I had enough of that playing WFB and 9thA. In AoS the Beastmen are actually a force to reckon ).

And against non armored opponents like DoK, I think the Dual Blades are better option. This is the one thing where I think the Bullgors are better. -2 Dmg 3 on their great weapons. Yes worse hit rate and one less attack, but that -2 rend is extremely important.

 

Yeah I know.

The spice is not really there.

But I think if the crusher was DMG3 or Rend 1.... Then with their better profiles and lower cost they would straight up sh*t all over Bullgors, the potential 1in6 MW be damned.

The 2" Range I think does factor in when you consider their base sizes. And Its nice to have the option of running 4+ Save Gor screen (though then again... ungors are better for that.).

I Think the Crusher *might* work, if you could get them a consistent -1 Rend, but magic is fickle and you cant ever fully rely on it.

Personally I would have made Crushers a -1 Rend, but With 4+ to Hit.

The rend one ( glaive) does the least expected wounds. The 6 attack one (crusher) and the 2 damage ones (paired) do an expected 1 and a third damage to 4+ armour. The rend option does 1.19 to 4+. 

 

Edit. Forgot to mention some things. One advantage of glaives I guess is the range. I'm not at home at the moment, so didn't look at sequitors rerolling saves, since it's much more of a pain to work out, that  might push them ahead vs sacrosanct. One disadvantage is that night haunt are a pretty common enemy, both themselves and as part of legions of Nagash. That leaves me feeling leery of relying on rend. Personally I think the crushers are the best option for Gavespawn or anything else with buffed attacks) and the paired are the best for reliability. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Satyrical Sophist
Forgot to mention some stuff.

[Pandamina]

10 hours ago, Myrdin said:

As such I would like to see the Skyfires drop back to 160, because right now they are trash tier.

In regards to that I would like to see some consistency, and a "on foot" version for 120 pts introduced, just like the Enlightened. 

Skyfires are not trash tier. They are decent melee unit and their shooting is nice addition. In recent Doom and Darkness' video Skyfires finished off Nagash and did it quite well.  Also on foot version would be waste of their great melee potential, and we would be paying for that nevertheless.

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Pandamina said:

Skyfires are not trash tier. They are decent melee unit and their shooting is nice addition. In recent Doom and Darkness' video Skyfires finished off Nagash and did it quite well.  Also on foot version would be waste of their great melee potential, and we would be paying for that nevertheless.

Sorry I dont buy that.

For 200 points you can build plenty of stuff that not only outcompetes, but straight out burries Skyfires into the ground. Great melee potential...  Compared to what ? Gors ? Oh yes, they are quite great in combat then. Compared to what else ? Bestigors.... Enlightened ? Dragon Ogers ? Heck.. Bullgors even ? Quite a good joke.

In all honesty I dont even have to go that far. A single unit of Enlightened can catch up to Skyfires, and in a single battle turn vipe them off the table.

For skyfires to do that to the Enlightened you would need 2 turns minimum, hit all your 3 attacks and deal the maximum number of wounds per each D3.

Just because somebody got lucky and did something does not reflect on the overall usability of a unit.

A rare exception does not set the norm.

I am really not trying to be a sarcastic ass here, but "polishing the tu*d and sprinkling fairy dust all over it" doesnt make it a brick of gold. A tu*d is still a tu*d. (why is a synonym for poop a banned word I do not know. Unnecesary censorship much ? )

I had fair share of that mentality in the 9thA forums, where a minority of vocal stubborn elitists pretended bad stuff in the Beastmen roster was great, didnt suck and everyone was just too noob to comprehend it. Just because they had some mediocre level of success with it, while the wast majority of people had plenty of experience to prove it statistically completely incorrect.

You are free to disagree though. As mentioned I love the models, and the idea of Birdmen snipers. However once I saw the unit transitioned to BoC book, and how marginally worse it got from before, and against what other choices it competed, this was a conclusion I didnt want to arrive at, but have arrived nonetheless.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Myrdin

[Skoll]

I'd hope we see some khorne beastmen to slot in at some point. Enlightened being better in combat or at least more reliable than bullgors is a little frustrating.

or at least skin wolves.... they fulfill that glass canon role better than bullgors I feel.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Skoll

[Pandamina]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

For 200 points you can build plenty of stuff that not only outcompetes, but straight out burries Skyfires into the ground. Great melee potential...  Compared to what ? Gors ? Oh yes, they are quite great in combat then. Compared to what else ? Bestigors.... Enlightened ? Dragon Ogers ? Heck.. Bullgors even ? Quite a good joke.

In all honesty I dont even have to go that far. A single unit of Enlightened can catch up to Skyfires, and in a single battle turn vipe them off the table.
For skyfires to do that to the Enlightened you would need 2 turns minimum, hit all your 3 attacks and deal the maximum number of wounds per each D3.
 

Just because somebody got lucky and did something does not reflect on the overall usability of a unit.
 

1) My point was that they are not trash tier. They definitely have great potential because of their fly, fast movement and rerolls in melee. They are better attackers compared to bestigors, dragon ogors and bullgors due to their small footprint and fly ability. Even by sheer math (damage dealt per pts) they are better than dragon ogors with glaives in melee, but of course not so well defended, so you want them to charge something and kill straight away.
2) So can unit of Skyfires. With shooting phase and charge Skyfires will kill unit of Enlightened. 
3) It wasn't luck, just usual performance.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Pandamina

[Agent of Chaos]

6 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Exactly.  I would drop the Bloodwarriors, 3rd Slaughterpriest, perhaps the Bloodstoker, in hopes of also getting in a Ghorgon.  The Formation costs to do this is ridiculous for the benefit essentially of +1A on 9 Bullgors.  I would almost be tempted to drop the 2nd Slaughterpriest as well.

I get what you're saying however the whole point of the list is to get as many khorne based buffs in to take advantage of the brass despoilers battalion. If you strip all of the khorne heroes out of there its pointless and becomes a totally different list. 

Besides I can't drop the blood warriors as they are required in the gore pilgrims battalion. The Bloodstoker is there to boost the Bullgors otherwise average movement and ensure they get the charge. The battalion benefit extends beyond +1A on 9 Bullgors as it also ignores battleshock and forces the opponent to reroll successfull casts. The Slaughterpriests are their to provide +1 to hit for the bullgors and dropping down to 2 or even 1 priest vastly reduces the reliability of getting the hit bonus off, at which point you may as well not bother with any khorne heroes and just stick with BOC allegiance. 

[amysrevenge]

There is a mindset, and I'm not judging it as good or bad - it is a valid and fine and OK way to approach the game - for which everything that isn't "best in class" for a given job is trash tier.  The best thing is what you use, the second best thing (and below) are all trash tier.

The only problem, really, is when the people who do it that way (and it is super cool for them to do it that way) try to argue that other people should also do it that way.  For other gamers, the "worst in class" for a given job is trash tier, and the second worst and above are OK.

[Skreech Verminking]

14 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

There is a mindset, and I'm not judging it as good or bad - it is a valid and fine and OK way to approach the game - for which everything that isn't "best in class" for a given job is trash tier.  The best thing is what you use, the second best thing (and below) are all trash tier.

The only problem, really, is when the people who do it that way (and it is super cool for them to do it that way) try to argue that other people should also do it that way.  For other gamers, the "worst in class" for a given job is trash tier, and the second worst and above are OK.

Well yeah that’s how for some reason  people believe it to be.

than again just let them believe that a specific unit/list isn’t competitive just because everybody else doesn’t use them/it.

its the same with clanrats.

there are some players out there who see them as total worthless too pricy trash.

but the funniest part afterwards was that a won with a list consisting of only clanrats and 2heros  against one of those players, by overrunning his complete army and also winning objective wise.

believe me a unit of 40Clanrats buffed up a little bit can take down A Megaboss on Mawcrushers.

What I’m trying to say with this is, that there isn’t the perfect armylist or unit.

Yes- of course some units are just better overall, but still some buffs will just make the other (from some players perspective trashy unit) much better then them.

same goes with list:

some list are incredibly strong,

but also other list which well consists of weaker units can win a game when used with the perfect Trategy.

 

Ps: also even if our so beloved Minotaurs, aren’t mathematically as good as well let’s say enlightenments,

there still will be times when you get frustrated because this guy your playing against just makes all his/her 4+/5+saves.

and than you’ll probably wished for some good -2rend weapons.

 

[Skoll]

has anybody dont a comparison of skinwolves vs two axe minos ? I want to say the skin wolves come out ahead

[Vastus]

@Skreech Verminking are you implying that clanrats are not the perfect unit? Tsk tsk tsk...

[Overread]

One issue with maths many overlook is that many maths theory crafting is often done without buffs or bonuses applied. So some armies can appear very weak when units are compared like for like. In my view any serious study has to account for the fact that buffs, bonuses and such are going to have taken place so even if the unit is underpowered on its own, the consideration of buffs and bonuses should show that they are more durable and powerful.

This only reinforces how some units are "stand alone" and others rely on synergy for best performance.