AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[dmorley21]

26 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

So Warhammer World GT Finals was this weekend. 

Pretty poor attendance of DEATH armies.
Only 5 out of 65.
3 x FEC, 1 x TK and 1 x Grand Alliance.
None of the 5 LoN legions or NH.
😢

This will change obviously when bonereapers drop, but I can see LoN and NH getting pushed further and further into the fringes. 

Yeah... it's really curious about how lacking NH representation is. They just don't get played. I'm also surprised at how LoN has disappeared.

[Tropical Ghost General]

LoN got hit hard with the points changes in GHB. Also the entire book has no answer to the activation wars other than it's debuff spells, but when your casters have gone up in points what can you do. 

The average sacrament list went up by 130pts+ and the average Nagash list by 200pts+. When I went to Blackout there was only 2 or 3 LoN players out of 96. There was 4 NH and a good handful of FEC. But it wasn't a great showing of DEATH armies. 

I'm really keen to see what the Grand Alliance list from the WW GT was using. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

On 9/28/2019 at 11:52 PM, Maxo Bug said:

Are the nighthaunt in such a bad spot?

So basically the main issues with nighthaunt are:

• The book is well balanced. The unit thrive with hero support, but the heroes are very weak. This is good balance. The issue is that a large proportion of new books are no well balanced.
• Limited choice of units. This may seem like a strange point, but as others have stated, nearly every unit in the book is identical. Nearly everything is single wound models, doing single point of damage, with either 0 or -1 rend. The heroes offer alternative options, but when you are limited to only 6 in 2k, the fight for who to take is often won by Dreadblade Harrows, Guardian of Souls and Spirit Torments. If NH had the hero cap removed, then it might open up some more interesting combinations of play, but the double whammy of weak heroes and limited spots often leads to a shed ton of lists that are almost identical.
• No stakes in the new elements that effect the meta. We have endless spells, but they are literally the worst faction specific endless spells in the entire game. It's often joked on podcast about how bad they are. We have no terrain piece to help provide bonuses or buffs. We have nothing to help in the activation wars except one single spell (Soul Cage), which has too short a range to be useful (only 12", so you have to use it in a double turn, when your wizard is close enough to the target to actually cast it) and not enough elements to guarantee that cast as well (as there are lots of auto-unbinds now in the game). There are rumours of newer mechanics coming in with the new books as well, which if true, is going to hurt us even more. It like playing a game of football (or soccer) , but you have no goalkeeper, no subs, no manager and half your team are injured. 
• Limited protection against mortal wounds. A 6+ is better than nothing, but a lot of other factions are getting 5+ or sometimes better. Mortal wound attacks have increased a lot recently. I played a friend with his Lizards recently with my FEC list, and he did 26 mortals a turn with spells and endless spells. FEC as an army is more geared up to tanking that damage, with access to healing, regeneration of units and stuff. NH are definitely not. Not having much or any mortal protection sucks, but having really bad healing or no resurrection makes those mortal wounds hurt even more.
• No battleshock immunity. We are an army that causes terror in the fluff, yet we are the worst at bravery bombing (outside of LoG which isn't NH it's LoN), and if you go for a horde build list, we suffer terribly from battleshock, due to super squishy heroes. A lot of traditionally low bravery armies, such as gobbos or rats, are immune to battleshock, seriously WTF.
• Are battalions suck plums. A lot of other armies are in the same boat, but the only NH ones that are worth looking into either lack any punch whatsoever or are super susceptible to units fleeing from battleshock.

So what could be done to remedy this, potential options to fix it without being totally broken might be:

• Army wide battleshock immunity.
• No cap of amount of heroes that you can take in a list. Currently if you take the 6 most expensive heroes we have (including unique heroes), the highest points we can go to with 6 heroes is 1010pts. In comparison FEC having 6 of their most expensive heroes would be 2640pts. It's a massive difference.
• Named heroes with a 3+ ethereal.
• The ability that NH cause -1 bravery for each unit within 6", rather than causing -1 regardless of how many units you have.
• Artefact that makes units susceptible to battleshock regardless of whatever ability or power they might that currents make them immune.
• Black Coach being given the hero keyword. It has a Cairn Wraith on it, it's huge base size would give much better wholly within options for supporting other units. It's rapid movement and minor healing abilities make it a great support piece to be able to zip all over the board. It wiffs in combat and due to having no hero keyword, it gets mutilated very easily by either mortals or from being unable to be kept wholly within 12" of a hero with it's large base size.

At the moment the current meta is in a stupid place. It's very much a case of those 'that have' and those 'that have not' of which we are in the latter. The new Bonereapers might give us some decent ally options to fill in the gaps, but ultimately they won't help to fix the current gapping holes that we have as a competitive faction. I have recently started running a narrative based night, 1k max army size, no build restrictions so you can bring whatever you want, and NH work great in that setting. Not too OP that they wipe the floor with everyone else, but not too weak that every game is an uphill battle.

When I went to Blackout, I took a semi-fluffy ghost list, it certainly could have been optimised a bit more, but every game was an uphill battle. If I failed a charge (or several charges), failed to cast the spell, or lost the priority roll, it was a huge set back and very difficult to recover from, which wasn't the same for my opponents in all 5 games. I only won 1 of the 5, which was solely due to them deploying badly and the random orb movement (in relocation orb) staying in my tableside. I was nearly wiped out entirely in that match as well. It's very disheartening to play games where even elements that you can't prepare for (such as priority roll) or failing charges with re-rolls, happening even once, means that it's then a huge uphill battle.

I've had games where I've double turned opponents, getting 10+ charges and the target units are still standing, at the end of 4 attacks of combat. Now that is basically the issue with the current meta. When a unit attacks 4 times and can't kill something, then there is an issue with balance.

In summary, I love my ghosts, but I've currently switched to FEC for competitive. I've switched to Slaves to Darkness/Chaos Grand Alliance for fluffy/narrative games, as there is more variety of units and choices of what to take. And my conversion project of Ogors is waiting to get started again once the new book drops. My NH are solely being used for intro games at my narrative night and nothing else, as it's become too soul destroying to constantly lose games before you have even rolled any dice.

[dmorley21]

@Tropical Ghost General

This is probably because I come from WHFB, but ghosts with battleshock immunity just seems wrong. That's them fading away. 

If the battalions all dropped to around a 100 pts +/- 10 I think they would be dynamite. Death Riders, Condemned, Death Stalkers, and Shrieker Host all have awesome rules but suffer from the battalion cost on top of the units you don't want tax. 

Point drops can fix a lot of issues for this army, and realistically is all we're getting for several years. 

However, pie in the sky, I'd suggest:

Wave of Terror being changed to units that charge get to fight at the beginning of combat, units that get 10+ do what they do now and fight again at the beginning of combat. 

Lady O, Kurdoss, and Reikenor go up in wounds. Reikenor get two spells. 

Black Coach be a hero.

Lord Executioner do a flat 3 damage but lower attacks. 

Stalkers be re-written to always have the Death Stalkers battalion special rules. Also make them two wounds... they're two souls (rider and steed) merged into one. 

Harridans become tanky units. Nagash wants them to stay alive to see the damage they cause, so it fits their fluff. I'd recommend a 4+/4+ over two wounds. 

Myrmourns gain an attack and/or have two wounds. 

Change the wording on reap like corn to re-roll hits. 

Give Hexwraiths reap like corn. 

[Evil Bob]

On 9/29/2019 at 6:01 PM, Tropical Ghost General said:

Snip

This will change obviously when bonereapers drop, but I can see LoN and NH getting pushed further and further into the fringes. 

Wouldn’t it be a hoot if all the “balancing” was just a preamble to push us all into the new Death army?  Muahahahahah! HA! HA! HA! Haaaaaaa.

You couldn’t see it but Skelletor was laughing right along with me.  It was awesome.

 

By any chance does anyone know how the placing for the Death armies that did show up?

[Tropical Ghost General]

4 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

By any chance does anyone know how the placing for the Death armies that did show up?

https://aosshorts.com/gt-finals-report-2019/

All the results can be found here.

[Saxon]

On 9/30/2019 at 8:30 AM, dmorley21 said:

Yeah... it's really curious about how lacking NH representation is. They just don't get played. I'm also surprised at how LoN has disappeared.

They were so powerful for so long they've been nerfed hard to keep the salty people happy. The problem i see is power lists get developed and people only play those lists so it gets a bit same same and others learn how to counter it. Once that happens interest goes. 

The other part is how super powerful other factions have become. LoN and NH have been hit hard by points changes and power creep. The worst part is NH models going up in points mainly because they are so incredibly useful in LoN armies. 

[Scurvydog]

The allegiance abilities are really lacking and the options to actually fight with many factions, mostly due to a huge powercreep in 2nd edition. Even though NH is a 2nd edition book, it appears to suffer from being first out the door. Things like Stormhosts for all factions is a stable of the 2nd edition format, which the Nighthaunt did not even get, so it feels more like a 1,5 tome at best.

With incredibly expensive 1 wound models with mediocre damage output, the saving grace for the nighthaunt models is the Legion of Grief, which is basically just a more boring version of the LoN books allegiances, with less artifacts and spell options and nothing that makes it unique other than access to NH models.

Access to NH models with the generic LoN gravesite rules works quite well, but mostly due to Dreadblade Harrows being the perfect general considering how gravesites work, as that model can teleport around at leasure to be where it needs to at any time. After the price increase of reapers, the Bladegheists became at least a viable an option, and bringing teleporting to gravesites to bring back units of bladegeists really hurt your opponent.

Sadly the LoG only have access to 3 spells, with only 1 which could be considered decent and the artifacts are pretty poor as well. This gives the feeling of a disjointed Death faction as a whole, with strange interactions and cross use of models. It also hurts LoG that their Mortarch is a really poor choice to bring, as the general trait is wasted and you also miss out on the mentioned shenanigans of the dreadblade general.

[Evil Bob]

On 10/3/2019 at 10:40 PM, Saxon said:

Snip

The worst part is NH models going up in points mainly because they are so incredibly useful in LoN armies. 

When GW saw Nighthaunt armies spamming Grmghasts and actively forgoing Bladegheists & Harridens they were going to nerf.  Which is a good lesson that when buying into an army to never double down on one build.  I diversified my bedsheet purchases and never regretted it.

[dmorley21]

2 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

When GW saw Nighthaunt armies spamming Grmghasts and actively forgoing Bladegheists & Harridens they were going to nerf.  Which is a good lesson that when buying into an army to never double down on one build.  I diversified my bedsheet purchases and never regretted it.

I honestly rarely saw Nighthaunt armies doing this besides me... and I did it just because I love the Reapers models and that's why I chose the army. I think Blades have always been popular for NH. The problem with Harridans and Stalkers for that matter is the lack of a role. They're worse versions of things NH already has. They should have been written to have different playstyles. 

[Evil Bob]

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

I love the Reapers models and that's why I chose the army.

They are pretty epic looking.  Checking every box to be the iconic Nighthaunt representation: scythe, imposing, and more scary than spooky.

 

1 hour ago, dmorley21 said:

 I think Blades have always been popular for NH.

Blades were sidelined by some because the reapers in general hit better on units 5+, the point costs, and Blades needed a SoT to really shine.  I have enough Blades for two units of ten, synergized they are amazing to the point where I’ve had people openly wonder if they are OP.  At that point I remind them about the SoT and the GoS whose buffs I actively declare each time they are in effect.

Reapers were so well liked people weren’t even bothering with Chainwrasps.  It was a crime.  Those Chainwrasp bad-boys get into most of my various Death lists.  There is something magic about a 160 point, twenty man unit that could hold positions above their point value.  They helped break my addiction to Direwolves.

[dmorley21]

So there's a rumor that Nighthaunt might be getting a battleforce box this year. Any thoughts about what might be in it?

[Panzer]

Ghosts?  

[Indecisive]

On 9/30/2019 at 4:48 AM, Tropical Ghost General said:

So basically the main issues with nighthaunt are:

• Limited choice of units. This may seem like a strange point, but as others have stated, nearly every unit in the book is identical. Nearly everything is single wound models, doing single point of damage, with either 0 or -1 rend. The heroes offer alternative options, but when you are limited to only 6 in 2k, the fight for who to take is often won by Dreadblade Harrows, Guardian of Souls and Spirit Torments. If NH had the hero cap removed, then it might open up some more interesting combinations of play, but the double whammy of weak heroes and limited spots often leads to a shed ton of lists that are almost identical

 

Yeah, skimming the NH line-up makes me just see a whole bunch of redundancy.
Chainrasps, Reapers, Revenants, Harridans, Stalkers etc all seem to overlap heavily to me. At least Spirit Hosts fill the role of multiwound, bigger models.
Not to say the mass of W1 models are identical but man could they do with some more specializing so you don't end up with one being a clear loser and forgotten in all aspects (Stalkers).

[dmorley21]

So Arkhan got a new warscroll and can no longer cast the spells of friendly death wizards. I had been thinking about buying him to run him with Olynder... glad I didn't now. 

[Platypus]

He got some other boosts, so it evens out I think. Always healing 3 wounds to four summonable unit wholly within 24” is better than before. That’s potentially 4   Spirir Hosts back each turn.

[Vasshpit]

Just thought of something 🤔, the new bonereapers Nightmare Predator endless spell would make a pretty legit Mourngul counts as. 👻💀

Edited October 27, 2019 by Vasshpit

[PraetorDragoon]

On 10/17/2019 at 12:52 AM, dmorley21 said:

So there's a rumor that Nighthaunt might be getting a battleforce box this year. Any thoughts about what might be in it?

A vague rumour calls it "Court of the Craven King", so I would assume the Craven King is in there.

[dmorley21]

2 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

Just thought of something 🤔, the new bonereapers Nightmare Predator endless spell would make a pretty legit Mourngul counts as. 👻💀

 

I saw someone mention that somewhere else and it's not a bad idea though it would be weird if playing against the actual spell. I've been thinking about putting a Mourngul in my army.

1 hour ago, PraetorDragoon said:

A vague rumour calls it "Court of the Craven King", so I would assume the Craven King is in there.

Yep, saw that. Makes sense as Kurdoss was probably not a top seller. From that perspective, I'd guess a unit of Harridans are in the box. Probably Stalkers too since they're in pretty much every box.

[Evil Bob]

On 10/26/2019 at 9:13 AM, dmorley21 said:

So Arkhan got a new warscroll and can no longer cast the spells of friendly death wizards. I had been thinking about buying him to run him with Olynder... glad I didn't now. 

He can cast three spells and breaks the rule of “single casting” for the basics.  This is the closest he’s ever been to his point value.  While not a Marty-Stue option Arkham might be for the crafty commander types.  It’s just unfortunate he is stuck fighting the dispel game while others are getting stuff on safe prayers or warscroll abilities.  Magic is always going to be a gamble.

I like the new warscroll and will give it a shot.  Won’t cut him from the team unless his point value diverts too much from combat units, which is what happened in the past.

 

I agree about not running him with the Mortarch of Grief.  That’s way too many “specialist” points.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Evil Bob

[dmorley21]

8 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

I agree about not running him with the Mortarch of Grief.  That’s way too many “specialist” points.

For me, the reason for using him was because Soul Cage, Shademist, and particularly Grief Stricken were such great spells. Him casting Grief Stricken on a 5 is so much better than Olynder only getting it off half the time... before unbinding roles.

You bring up a good point though, one that I still struggle with when list building, which is competitive NH lists (at least as competitive as they get) can only really have one specialist thing going on in the list.

You can run a battalion, sure, and there's some good ones. Or you can give Olynder a whirl. Or you can run Reikenor+Cogs+other endless spells. Or you can run a Mourngul. None of it is that obvious though and all of it makes you need to spend the rest of your points on our expensive troops (Chainrasps being the exception... I wish I had invested in those!).

[Spears]

Personally I think two of the special characters is just about right. Anything less and I find I have too many models contributing to brain drain and generally being a bit of a hassle.

 

Eidt: For battleforces hopefully they use the opportunity to put in the Gos with mortality glass warscroll. Maybe even a matched play legal battalion to up the reliability of kurdoss.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Spears

[Neck-Romantic]

Sorry; Ive been posting in Bonereaper for a while.

I saw someone write some concise wishlisting for NH that I thought worked perfectly. Make them effective and scary spooks not because of sheer on-paper force; but for their rule-bending hijinks.

WoT = always fights first on succesfull charge for every unit, ignores activation wars. Loses double attack.

Army wide immunity to battleshock. Additional ways to pierce battleshock immunity.

Slight boost to toughness (additional wounds or access to reroll failed saves)

Slight change to certain units to break the 'sameness' of half the army

 

Make NH scary and seem out-of-this-world with army wide invulns, mortals, and battleshock/activation immunity!

Also; the "stormhost" issue is the same as when the necron "decurion" came out and no one else had "chapter" bonuses is quite real. Imagine a flat +1 armor or -1 rend or +3" movement across the board.

 

Adding 'reaped like corn' could be a "stormhost" type bonus too. It truly feels like we need these

Edited October 28, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[Neck-Romantic]

Chill of the Grave; army wide frightful touch now triggers on unmodified rolls of 5 or 6 (hosts, hexes, Olynder/Kurdoss attendents, Reik, Mourngul, TombWraith)

Unfinished Business; army wide re-roll failed ethereal saves OR Deathless save increased to 5+ whichever is fair

Dreadful Determination; units that make a succesfull charge move now attack first in the combat phase regardless of any other factor or rule

Swift Apparitions; army wide 3" increased movement, and additional 3" pile-in

Mounting Terror; -1 bravery aura now cumulative, if an enemy unit receives -3/-4 (whatever is balanced) from this effect they may no longer ignore battleshock tests regardless of rules or bonuses 

Would be so easy to elevate us back into the meta! Why wasnt something like this in GHB19

Edited October 28, 2019 by Neck-Romantic

[IkedaT]

Given the fact that I only BOUGHT Kudross to mess with my opponents CP's.... and the new army coming out doesn't USE CP's... (and they ignore bravery) means a COMMON army I'll be seeing can ignore pretty much all my shenanigans.