AoS 2 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[dmorley21]

1 minute ago, Thamalys said:

Fair. I'm not questioning Dreadscythes are good - they are (now. eventually. after a few rounds of point changes...). As a counterpoint to your preference in terms of playstyle, though, I personally still prefer Bladegheists; not so much because of the damage (these days, we are laughing stock anyway in that regard) but because of their incredibly useful ability to retreat and charge. Like everything Nighthaunt, Bladegheists fly. They can retreat (8") AND run (nothing prevents you from doing that, a possibility often overlooked!) AND charge - think of the crazy board control that you can achieve with an ability that is inbuilt and basically comes for free. That's just my preference of course - I find that investing in movement shenanigans is more efficient (with Nighthaunt, I mean) than trying to increase our damage output.

Yeah, that ability is awesome. My problem has been they are always the first unit my opponents target, and then they don't last long which hurts at their price point.

[Nevar]

10 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Yeah, that ability is awesome. My problem has been they are always the first unit my opponents target, and then they don't last long which hurts at their price point.

Shroudguard exists, and I have used them in double shroudguard which makes them nearly as good as Phoenix Guard at sticking around, especially with recursion.

[Benlisted]

The Bladegheists vs Harridans is an argument I revisited with my NH google sheet when their points got reduced last time, as I was curious how they came out against one another (the sheet is here if anyone is interested).

Talking about full units both with a torment in range, BRs do 36.1  damage on the charge at 0.113 damage per point, and 24.3 when not charging at 0.076 damage per point (so 60.4 over two turns and an average of 0.095 damage per point). Dreadscythes on the other hand will do 27.7 damage every turn at 0.106 damage per point, so 55.4 in total. I won't quote the numbers (you can do that yourself in the spreadsheet if you download a copy) but obviously the BRs also drop off worse without the torment than the harridans do.

Not really anything new but I concluded that basically you HAVE to have a torment there and to charge with BGs to get your money's worth, if you don't then Harridans are better for the points. Personally I take a unit of each and have the Harridans as an anvil I don't mind getting charged, whilst the BGs I keep back to ensure they can get a charge off.

[Thamalys]

All valid points, folks.

20 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

they are always the first unit my opponents target, and then they don't last long which hurts at their price point.

That is very true...

9 minutes ago, Nevar said:

Shroudguard exists

I used to run that battalion with decent effect, but both Reikenor and the Knight of Shrouds on Steed only have 6/7 wounds - when they are gone, the 5+ shrug goes with them, and at that point... 

11 minutes ago, Nevar said:

I have used them in double shroudguard which makes them nearly as good as Phoenix Guard at sticking around

An interesting comparison that for some reason I've never thought of... against zero rend, the Phoenix Guard must be vastly superior than the Bladegheists in Shroudguard (the difference between a 4+ and 5+ shrug is big), but against anything with rend... not sure at which point the scale tips in favour of our Bladegheists  (can't be bothered to do the math), but - crucially - the toughness of the Phoenix Guard is in-built while our Bladegheists need to stick close to Reikenor/Knight of Shrouds on Steed in order to get the 5+ shrug. In my experience, it doesn't take much at all to wreck 10 (or even 20...) ethereal wounds in a single go (at which point our healing potential is mute), notwithstanding a 6+ or even a 5+ shrug. Gravesites, we need gravesites...

[Nevar]

33 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

All valid points, folks.

That is very true...

I used to run that battalion with decent effect, but both Reikenor and the Knight of Shrouds on Steed only have 6/7 wounds - when they are gone, the 5+ shrug goes with them, and at that point... 

An interesting comparison that for some reason I've never thought of... against zero rend, the Phoenix Guard must be vastly superior than the Bladegheists in Shroudguard (the difference between a 4+ and 5+ shrug is big), but against anything with rend... not sure at which point the scale tips in favour of our Bladegheists  (can't be bothered to do the math), but - crucially - the toughness of the Phoenix Guard is in-built while our Bladegheists need to stick close to Reikenor/Knight of Shrouds on Steed in order to get the 5+ shrug. In my experience, it doesn't take much at all to wreck 10 (or even 20...) ethereal wounds in a single go (at which point our healing potential is mute), notwithstanding a 6+ or even a 5+ shrug. Gravesites, we need gravesites...

So some points about Blades that are often not considered when they get compared to other units.  The unrending save is a better dice gate than the 4++ ward on the Phoenix Guard.  The reason I say that, is because when an attack gets through your save, it converts to damage before you get your shrug.  This means that PG while being legendary, get smashed by high damage weapons.  When you receive say a six damage attack without rend. The PG have a 4+ save to cancel the entire attack, then a 4++ on all damage that goes through.  Like you said, against rend - the PG are completely better in defense, but the moment you add rend, you start canceling -more- damage at the initial save than PG.  As example, I play both Aleves and Nighthaunt, and the OBR catapult that does 5 damage is terrifying to my aelves, even the PGs, and I can basically ignore them as nighthaunt.

Additionally, comparing them to PGs which are universally accepted as a 'very good' warscroll... Blades will basically always have 3 attacks instead of 2.  With their 1" reach that means they will often just end up with a similar number of attacks as PGs with the same attack profile.  However, Blades can receive +1 attack or +1 to hit from their Knight of Shrouds, as well as rerolling all hits from chainghasts and torments.  If you have a guardian you can even +1 to wound.  Those sort of buffs are harder to get on PGs.  But ignoring buffs to be a more direct comparison, PGs and Blades will do similar damage, because the fall back and charge rule is coupled with the +1 attack when charging rule built into the Blades.

Speaking of that rule... that rule is what makes Blades better than PG even outside of Shroudguard and without any other buffs. Blades can move 8" and flying which is amazing to begin.  That movement means you -should- be able to control when and where your blades are engaged in combat.  They should -never- receive a charge unless you have made a major mistake or you got double turned.  Additionally, the blades should -always- be charging on your active turn.  Even if you just fall back 3" to charge back in.  This not only gives you the +1 attack from the rule, but also lets the Blades fish for Wave of Terror throughout the entire game so long as they are alive.  Additionally it lets them disengage and charge back field ranged units, support heroes, or buff pieces.  You can use the enemy screen as a slingshot to cover huge amounts of distance with decent charge rolls.  Usually screens are not going to do any serious damage to Blades, and on your next turn you can retreat through enemy lines and charge deeper into their backfield, or use it to cross from the right side of the battle to the left or vice versa.  This single rule on the blades makes them the best unit in the Nighthaunt book in my opinion without anyone even a close runner up.  The only reason I have not fielded a list spamming as many of these guys as I can is because of the actual cost in real money it would take to collect so many.

Additionally, a key tactic to keep your blades alive long enough to use that special rule is to split charge enemy units.  As example, I normally take my shroudguard in 20 by 5 formations.  One big block of 20, one minimum group of 5 plus the Knight of Shrouds  It is difficult to keep two big blocks inside the buff radius anyways.  If you are charging say, a full big block of hearthguard or chaos marauders or whatever... you charge the small unit of 5 blades at the back corner of the enemy unit, and then your massive block of 20 blades barely into the front corner. Unless you get a Wave of Terror on the big block, resist the urge to pile in too much, as the idea here is to keep as many of the enemy models in the middle of the enemy unit from actually piling in to get their attacks since the models have to pile in separate directions.  This can leave nearly half of whatever you charged unable to pile in and fight. Very likely you will lose the 5 blades unit in the back by the time the next activation of your troops comes around, but you will very likely have preserved the vast bulk of the 20 blade block to do a closer ranged cycle charge, or to disengage and go fight elsewhere. I used this tactic to destroy huge blocks of Daughters of Khaine, because it prevented the DoK witches from overwhelming my blades with their buckets of dice.  I lost the five blade unit but only lost a few blades from the main block which got returned to the battle via the Guardian of Souls.  The following charge phase that allowed all 20 to make it into combat with the witches, plus the +1 attack from the Knight of Shrouds meant that my 20 blades could all attack with 4 attacks each, hitting on 3+ rerolling, wounding on 2's.  Suffice to say they ruined that block of witches and lived nearly unscarred to move on and do it again elsewhere.  I traded in essence, five bladegeists for 30 witches.  And this example is actually the worst case match up.  Witches throw massive amounts of low rend attacks, blades shine against more elite units with less attacks with higher rend, so this tactic can even the odds for your elite blades even against things like large hordes of low quality attacks.

[Sauriv]

3 hours ago, Thamalys said:

They can retreat (8") AND run (nothing prevents you from doing that, a possibility often overlooked!) AND charge

Sorry i have to disagree with you on this one. Retreat and run are two different "modifications" to the "normal move" and both of them have the drawback of restricting you from charge and shoot. (can be read in the coreg-rules) 

---

Bladegheists can retreat and still charge but if you also choose to run with them then the drawback of running kicks in and you can't charge anymore. 

Bestigors can run and still charge, and knight-heraldor can make a unit run and/or retreat and still charge. 

[Nevar]

17 minutes ago, Sauriv said:

Sorry i have to disagree with you on this one. Retreat and run are two different "modifications" to the "normal move" and both of them have the drawback of restricting you from charge and shoot. (can be read in the coreg-rules) 

---

Bladegheists can retreat and still charge but if you also choose to run with them then the drawback of running kicks in and you can't charge anymore. 

Bestigors can run and still charge, and knight-heraldor can make a unit run and/or retreat and still charge. 

I agree with this and is how I have always played them.  This makes the 8" flying move even more important.  Most of the 'extra' move you get from Blade's fall back is the next 2d6" charge they will roll afterwards.  I can see an argument in the opposite way, but I don't think you can run as part of the retreat if you still want to charge. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

I find blades only need to retreat 3", because they lack the punch to kill something in a single turn 😢

[Thamalys]

 

5 hours ago, Sauriv said:

Sorry i have to disagree with you on this one. Retreat and run are two different "modifications" to the "normal move" and both of them have the drawback of restricting you from charge and shoot. (can be read in the coreg-rules)

Yes, I stand corrected.  My mistake originated from this FAQ...

... in that, in my mind, this implied that when you retreat and/or run you’re still doing a single normal move. My bad, sorry!

[Sauriv]

29 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

 

Yes, I stand corrected.  My mistake originated from this FAQ...

... in that, in my mind, this implied that when you retreat and/or run you’re still doing a single normal move. My bad, sorry!

No worries 😁 AoS rules can be confusing from time to time, I'm just glad I could help. 

(sorry if i sounded too harsh before. I wrote the post and added pictures and so on my phone and then everything disappeared and i had to rewrite everything. 😩 ) 

[EnixLHQ]

The BG/DH debate basically boils down to one thing.

Can you charge?

If you can charge, or intend on playing in such a way where charging is likely, BGs win. Not just because of their buff on the charge, but because as Nighthaunt every chance at a charge is a potential Wave of Terror. This alone makes even Glaivewraiths better than Dreadscythes, since Glaivewraithers can similarly set more situations in which to charge. In other words, charge attempts trump base damage, because WoT nets ~x2 damage, half of which has no answer.

Dreadscythes are good on paper, but once again our core abilities skew the outcome. You have to commit to our major mechanics, of which I'd argue there's only two anymore, and DHs just don't fit into either of them.

The two are fishing for WoT or stocking up on mortal wound generators. I'm currently a fan of the latter.

[Skarband]

hi i would like to start with this army i really like the models question can this army play with any army? play tournament? or is it a shelf army?

[Thamalys]

25 minutes ago, Skarband said:

hi i would like to start with this army i really like the models question can this army play with any army? play tournament? or is it a shelf army?

You can definitely play Nighthaunts in any setting you can think of, from narrative games up to ultra-competitive tournaments.

At the moment, the consensus is that they are not especially competitive at the moment - that is, they are not as strong as some other factions out there. Having said that, I personally think that if you like the models (of course you do, what’s not to like? Arguably one of the coolest aesthetics in the whole of Age of Sigmar IMHO) than go for it! 

Nighthaunts are a bit tricky to master, as you want to win your games via clever positioning / movement and focus on the objectives - as opposed to wipe your opponent’s units off the table (we re not great at dealing much damage). Having said that, this is the faction I enjoy playing the most in the whole of the Death allegiance - I don’t bring it to tournaments anymore, but unless you are jumping into the game with a very competitive mind frame, I only have good things to say about our beloved ghosts.

You’ll find quite a few posts on this thread sort of complaining about where this faction stands in the great scheme of things, but while they’re are not wrong, don’t let them bring you down - ghosts are fun!

[Neck-Romantic]

You can sometimes do well by repositioning hard and going all-in on one flank, with some bare-bones (😅) rear obj campers. 

Our bases are so large it can sometimes be difficult for your opponent to swing their entire army around to try to dig you out of their side

Edited October 4, 2020 by Neck-Romantic

[Thamalys]

5 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

In other words, charge attempts trump base damage, because WoT nets ~x2 damage, half of which has no answer.

Personally, I don’t believe Wave of Terror is a mechanic to rely on or indeed to try to maximise by e.g. the usage of MSUs. It triggers on an unmodified roll of 10+ with 2D6, that’s a 8,33% chance, i.e. less than one in ten.  Conversely, base damage is always there, and because Wave of Terror triggers so rarely, base damage is what matters. Would you take 4 units of 5 Glaivewraiths or a unit of 20 Bladegheists? I’ll take the latter all day, Glaivewraiths will do close to nothing even if they do get a Wave of Terror. 

Just my thoughts, of course.

[Orchid89]

Hi!

I am helping my partner start her first army (1000-1250points max) and she decided to go for Nighthaunt because she likes the look of them (+Mortal Realms mag value). The magazine makes things quite cheap and I have access to buying most of the issues.

So far she has a boatload of Chainrasps

and we are ordering the triple Hero sprue of Soul Wars

we Have a pack of Spirit hosts

1 pack of Dreadblade Harrows

2 packs of the oddly numbered Reaper/Stalker sprues from Soulwars (ill probably get the Warcry warband box to complete the units. 12 Stalkers and 10 Reapers)

1 Tomb Banshee (She likes the mini although im not sure if shes anygood)

1 pack of 4 myrmourn banshees (and another 4 if I buy the Warcry Warband box)

Is there anything else I should look out for? I dont think Mortal Realms will come with Bladegheists so we probably wont be getting them. Maybe Dreadscythe Harridans instead? More Spirit Hosts? (Are they worth having 6+ of?)

Issue 38 coms with Crawlocke the Jailor and Chainghasts, which are pretty nifty, I was thinking of getting a copy or 2.

She will definitly be getting the Lady Olynder and Reikenor issue when its available.

EDIT: I deleted a whole bunch of text regarding Dreadblade Harrow to Hexwraith conversions, its a cool idea but more than 3 times the cost and im not sure its worth sacrificing Reapers to do it.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Orchid89

[LordPrometheus]

On 10/4/2020 at 7:42 AM, Skarband said:

hi i would like to start with this army i really like the models question can this army play with any army? play tournament? or is it a shelf army?

NH can play with almost any army if you focus on objectives and play tactically. I've beaten Seraphon with them despite almost getting tabled because I played objectives and scared their Kroak with my deepstrike potential. 

Don't try to play them as a beatstick army, you'll get crushed and disappointed. Ghosties are very fun to play if you like the tactical playstyle. You won't be crushing any tournaments with them, and they definitely need an update, but they will still win you a few games. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by LordPrometheus

[lare2]

3 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

Is there anything else I should look out for?

You've got a fair amount already! I'd say eye up a Black Coach as well solely because it's gotta be one of the best models in AoS right now. 

[Orchid89]

3 hours ago, lare2 said:

You've got a fair amount already! I'd say eye up a Black Coach as well solely because it's gotta be one of the best models in AoS right now. 

Oh yea that model is amazing looking! Costs a pretty penny though. We will reward ourselves with a Black coach if we paint all the models mentioned earlier 😅

unfortunatly the magazine will only come with Mortis Engine which I dont really see in anyones list. It is a gorgeous model tho so I might get it anyway. 

Really looking forward to the Lady Olynder and Reikenor issues though!

Nighthaunt has some of the most beautiful models! (its a shame about the Hexwraiths, they are a little goofy)

 

I am still undecided if we need 10 or 20 Dreadscythe Harridans and if 3 Spirit hosts are enough, or should I buy an extra pack or 2?

This is for 1000points btw.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Orchid89

[lare2]

13 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

Costs a pretty penny though.

That it does! Got mine as an xmas present from the wife in 2018... still not painted 😂

13 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

Mortis Engine which I dont really see in anyones list

The reason being you can't run it in NH. It makes zero sense it being included in Mortal Realms. You can run it in Legion of Grief, however, which also uses all your NH models. Check out the section here for Legion of Grief. The rules can be found in the campaign book Forbidden Power, which I imagine could be picked up fairly cheaply now. Legion of Grief's cool. There was some debate recently whether or not it's still legal but it most definitely still is.

14 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

Really looking forward to the Lady Olynder

You and me both! Mortal Realms really is an awesome way to pick up the range. I've got a fair amount already but keep my eyes open for certain issues. 

14 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

shame about the Hexwraiths

They're not too bad... they just don't look anywhere near as good as the rest of the range. It's a shame really as I adore their alternative build - Black Knights. 

14 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

I am still undecided if we need 10 or 20 Dreadscythe Harridans and if 3 Spirit hosts are enough, or should I buy an extra pack or 2?

This is for 1000points btw.

I recently picked up 20 Dreadscythes myself. I'm not really intending to run them anytime soon though as I don't really see a place for them in any of my lists just yet. To be honest, with the way they are at the minute I'd probably just stick to 10. Nice to have them and you can always run them in 2 units of 5 if you wanna run the battalion. 

If you're aiming for 1k initially then 3 Spirit Hosts is probably enough. I would recommend checking out the Execution Horde battalion, however, which requires 3 units. I love this battalion. 

Honestly though, if you're after advice on list building you really can't go wrong with the awesome blog made by @EnixLHQ

You can find it in his signature but here's a link: 

 

[Nevar]

On 10/5/2020 at 8:14 AM, Orchid89 said:

Hi!

I am helping my partner start her first army (1000-1250points max) and she decided to go for Nighthaunt because she likes the look of them (+Mortal Realms mag value). The magazine makes things quite cheap and I have access to buying most of the issues.

So far she has a boatload of Chainrasps

and we are ordering the triple Hero sprue of Soul Wars

we Have a pack of Spirit hosts

1 pack of Dreadblade Harrows

2 packs of the oddly numbered Reaper/Stalker sprues from Soulwars (ill probably get the Warcry warband box to complete the units. 12 Stalkers and 10 Reapers)

1 Tomb Banshee (She likes the mini although im not sure if shes anygood)

1 pack of 4 myrmourn banshees (and another 4 if I buy the Warcry Warband box)

Is there anything else I should look out for? I dont think Mortal Realms will come with Bladegheists so we probably wont be getting them. Maybe Dreadscythe Harridans instead? More Spirit Hosts? (Are they worth having 6+ of?)

Issue 38 coms with Crawlocke the Jailor and Chainghasts, which are pretty nifty, I was thinking of getting a copy or 2.

She will definitly be getting the Lady Olynder and Reikenor issue when its available.

EDIT: I deleted a whole bunch of text regarding Dreadblade Harrow to Hexwraith conversions, its a cool idea but more than 3 times the cost and im not sure its worth sacrificing Reapers to do it.

Actually I believe there will be Bladegeists in the mortal realms magazines.  If there are, pick up a lot of them. 

[Orchid89]

  

On 10/6/2020 at 10:35 AM, lare2 said:

 

The reason being you can't run it in NH. It makes zero sense it being included in Mortal Realms. You can run it in Legion of Grief, however, which also uses all your NH models. Check out the section here for Legion of Grief. The rules can be found in the campaign book Forbidden Power, which I imagine could be picked up fairly cheaply now. Legion of Grief's cool. There was some debate recently whether or not it's still legal but it most definitely still is.

 

Thanks for the helpful post.

That is so bizarre...there are so many things like this that dont make sense with Nighthaunt....the 2 Dreadblade Harrows (but only 1 being a hero?) the odd numbering of models in the Soul Wars sprue.

Is this normal for GW?

Ill get us 2 more packs of Spirit Hosts incase we ever want to  run 9 of them (for 2k point battles) and 10 Harridans

BTW Thank you so much for that link, it looks like a good bit of reading to help understand Nighthaunt and its playstyle.

8 hours ago, Nevar said:

Actually I believe there will be Bladegeists in the mortal realms magazines.  If there are, pick up a lot of them. 

oooo, I couldnt tell from the giant mess of grey plastic in the promo pic.

That would be nice.

What is a good number to have? 10? 20?

Now, i have to decide if I should bother with the Harridans lol...I guess 10 wont hurt (and my partner loves their hair lol)

Edited October 7, 2020 by Orchid89

[tvih]

Man, I wish the magazines that come with figs were a thing for the rest of Europe. Even a few third-party places I checked that sell specific issues of them only shipped to UK.

[EnixLHQ]

5 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

  

Thanks for the helpful post.

That is so bizarre...there are so many things like this that dont make sense with Nighthaunt....the 2 Dreadblade Harrows (but only 1 being a hero?) the odd numbering of models in the Soul Wars sprue.

Is this normal for GW?

For early armies, yeah. Not the later ones, though.

It as to do with our early power balancing. We were more of a bizzaro-Stormcast when we were first designed, and the beta-tests had us looking like a hybrid between horde and elite unit types. Dreadblades were meant to be a 2-man unit and not heroes, for example. But, they realized two flavors of Stormcast weren't going to cut it and began to adjust Nighthaunt into a more horde-type army. As rules changed and balance was attempted, they weren't going to go back and remake the sprues to reflect it.

The Mortis Engine is more of a mystery to me. I seen it said somewhere that it literally came down to a lore decision, that no living necromancers could be in a Nighthaunt army due to their mutual hate and distrust, and thus it didn't make the cut being a NH model. I know GW has made similar lore decisions in the past, but that it usually involved a way to get the models back in, which we didn't get until Legion of Grief or mercenaries.

In either case, it's our price to pay of being one of the two launch tomes for the AoS 2nd edition. 

[Landohammer]

Hey guys, here is a tough question. Now that Legion of Grief is unquestionably legal again, what is the most competitive way to field a majority Nighthaunt army? 

Here are key differences as I see them.

Nighthaunt

-Hexwraith, Grimghast Reaper, and Spirit battleline options. 

-Wave of Terror

-Spectral Summons

- Soul Cage

-Pendant of the Fell Wind

-Olynder doesn't come with any baggage

- Deepstrike without gravesite conditions

- Access to Vampire Lord as ally

Legion of Grief

-Can summon an entire unit back for 1 CP

- Dread Withering

-Vassal of the Craven King

-Access to Necromancers

-Access to Mortis Engine without the need for allies

 

All in all it looks pretty close. To me the big items are the differences in battleline, and the resurrection command ability. I guess  what it boils down to is if the loss of good battleline is worth the ability to summon units back. As the magic items and spells are relatively comparable, as is Wave of Terror and Necromancer (both provide situational double fights). 

Thoughts?