Thamalys

@Neil Arthur Hotep, I agree with your analysis. At the moment, the one thing that Legion of Blood seems to be doing slightly better than the rest of the BloodLines is to keep your VLoZD alive for longer. Soulbound Garment makes brings him on a 2+ base, which is quite cool. If you bring Neferata (yes, that's a LOT of points, but hear me out...) you can make that 2+ "unrendable", which is gross, and on top of that you can give him Aura of Dark Majesty for a flat -1 to hit, which you can double via Neferata's command ability (Twilight Allure) to counteract any All out Attack commands. You are looking at 14 wounds on a 2+ unrendable save and -1 to hit with healing. Not shabby. However, mortal wounds will bring him down, and he's not the blender he was in the "old" Legion of Blood. Damage-wise he can spike, but nothing you can rely on. The Coven Throne can help to a point in that department. I found it weird that the allegiance ability asks you to focus on Deathrattle, but then again we have the Kastelai for the Blood Knights, so...

This. It's a splendid book in this regard, you have many options at your disposal, most of them fairly viable. Kastelay with 4/5 units of Blood Knights is an option, but (a.) I personally dislike spam lists even when talking Blood Knights (my favourite sculpts in the game) and; (b.) in my opinion you have to take some summonable units in a SG list, the gravesites mechanics is too good to just ignore it. Nagash + <insert random stuff here> is still a very strong build, albeit very dependent on the match up. Some armies don't have the damage and/or don't have the tarpits to deal with the Big Man Himself. Some others will shoot everything else off the board and plonk bodies against Nagash for 5 turns straight. I never liked playing Nagash, but that's personal preference / play style. Vykros, Avengoori and Legion of Night all offer very viable builds. As a Legion of Blood player, I am trying to figure out a balanced list myself, but some work is still needed. Pick the stuff that you think you'll enjoy more painting - if you have the whole range, you'll end up in a decent place anyway. I have to say, this (i.e. buying the whole lot and trying to narrow it down later) is not my usual approach, so I might not be the best person to offer a suggestion here...

Well done, sir. Every victory is a good one, but when you outperform your opponent in terms of movement is even better - particularly with Nighthaunt! Movement is still a very strong aspect of the game... if only we could have access to some even slightly more effective damage output... * sighs *

Thanks folks - all of your thoughts are very much appreciated! It used to be because: (1) they lack, by definition, any personality. At heart, I am a skirmish game player, in that I tend to think a lot about each unit/model. I like a story for each thing in my list. Sure, you can write narrative in your head for Deathrattle stuff as well, but it's maybe not that epic as the deeds of a vampire lord (in my mind at least!). Big blobs of mindless hordes don't do it for me; (2) Deathrattle units are all awfully slow. It's true that with the new gravesites mechanic that's less of an issue, but still; (3) The models were bloody awful. Now, that's not the case anymore, the new skeletons are actually quite cool. Alright, so this is something that pains me quite a bit. I have 12 Vargheists (VG), all painted in a color scheme that I like a lot - and I only ever used them in narrative events. Sadly, I don't think they got any better with the new book - they just can't hope to compete against Blood Knights (BK). BK are 195 points for 5, VG are 155 points for 3. They are both excellent hammers, albeit BK deal more damage in almost any situation (assuming the Riders of Ruin will do what we think it should do, i.e. the BKs get damage 2 basically every turn). The one big ol' problem is the save. BK are on 3+, VG are on a 5+. The gap is immense and means that BK can also be an anvil - VG die to a stiff breeze. This is especially key given that both BK and VG can (in specific builds) deep strike 9" away - the big difference between the two is that if you don't make the 9" charge (which you usually won't, unless you invest in the Reikenor+Cogs combo, and even then...) it's a bad day for your BK but an absolute disaster for your VG. You would really only deep strike them if you are about to get the possibility for a double turn, and even then it'd be a gamble. VG should either be 120 points or being summonable. That's my thinking - please do try to convince me otherwise, as I'd love to bring them! This is very true... "A vampire rose by any other name would smell as sweet", I guess. BK in Kastelai become very interesting indeed. I still think the Souldbound Garments are crazy good for a VLoZD, though. It's incredible, isn't it? There is NO point whatsoever in bring those guys along for the ride. Maybe At the moment, here's a work-in-progress LoB list with no DEATHRATTLE... VLoZ (General, Soulbound Garments, Aura of Dark Majesty, Amethystine Pinions) Neferata (Overwhelming Dread) Coven Throne (Vile Transference) 3 x 10 Wolves 2 x 5 BK 1 DreadBlade Harrow (little annoying thing) or 1 extra CP plus and an endless spell. But yes, let's say that I was to forget about names and labels and opt for the Kastelai instead. At that point I'd probably want to spam as many BK was possible. However, wolves are probably the best screening unit in the game, so I'd probably still bring them. An interesting option is that of swapping the Coven Throne for Belladamma... well, we shall see. At the heart of it all is my desire for a truly elite vampire army, which is doable - it just does not feel very competitive. In fact, I would go as far as saying that LoB is probably the least competitive sub-faction in the whole book, as the battletraits are bloody awful and the battleline bespoke option (Black Knights) is absolute trash. Maybe bravery will become more relevant in AoS 3, and I think you guys are right - perhaps this book was truly written with AoS 3.0 in mind and it will reach its full potential only when the new version will land. Who knows. After all, I seem to recall this was the case with the LoN book as well, so maybe we are in for a treat. I should clarify that my intent is not that to complain (I got my plastic Blood Knights, I am good for the next 5 years) but simply that of trying to find the sweet spot between something fairly competitive and my "idea" of Neferata's vampires.

Hi all, I hope this is the best place to post about Legion of Blood - now that the new Soulblight Gravelords battletome landed. In the past few weeks I have tried to stay clear of any leak/preview, so that I could have an unbiased, fresh look at the battletome as it eventually materialised into my greedy hands. That happened yesterday (what a day!) so I am now elbows deep into the whole awesomeness. What I would like to discuss here is how to make Legion of Blood work in the context of the new battletome, but from a very selfish perspective, focused on my dislike for anything with the DEATHRATTLE keyword. I'll try to summarise what I (think I) gathered from a first read of the book, looking for any sort of feedback from your side. So: The main LoB change consist in the Favoured Retainers battle trait, which now focuses on DEATHRATTLE units as opposed to VAMPIRE LORDS and BLOOD KNIGHTS. Whether we like it or not (I do not and I do not understand this choice from a lore perspective, but hey...), it means the book is now encouraging the inclusion of some skeletons in our LoB lists. Argh. My idea of a Legion of Blood army is something that includes Neferata (good news on that side, more on that below) and loads of VAMPIRE units. The latter fell out of favour for LoB, though, as they appear to be the focus of the Kastelai Dynasty instead. "Yeah, just play the Kastelai", I hear you say. Fair. But let's assume for a moment that we want to stick with LoB and VAMPIRE units. Can we make it work? Going VAMPIRE instead of DEATHRATTLE means giving up one of the LoB battle traits, so we start on the back foot. However, we still have, I would argue, the best command trait and artefact combination in the whole book for making our beloved Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon seriously hard to kill. Namely, in LoB we have access to Aura o Dark Majesty, which is great (-1 to hit flat in melee, which means that shooting is still an issue) and the Souldbound Garments, which are now filthy, bringing our VLoZD to a 2+ save. Neferata can make that a 2+ unrendable save, which is glorious. Yes, the Coven Throne also gives you the opportunity to improve your save rolls by 1, but that costs a CP, and there is no CP farming option in this book, aside for allying Kurdoss (but that's a tough sell). Our Beautiful Queen Neferata now has a very solid profile. As a start, she does not have to be your general in LoB - huge, as our VLoZD can take Aura of Dark Majesty with her in the list as well. Incidentally, with the new Endless Legions rules you don't care too much about your general getting killed, which is awesome. A 3+ (potentially a 2+ with a Coven Throne, potentially an unreadable 2+ with her on spell), 12 wounds and her command ability not degrading with wounds, she can now stick around for way longer. And, I just love that Akmet-har is now slaying any HERO on a 5+. That's... something. So. She's in. Neferata + VLoZD + Coven Throne make for an exceptional trio of Leaders, two of which are generals. Excellent. The problem is our battleline options. The minimum size for a unit of dire wolves is now 10, which is harsh, as the battleline tax effectively double (compared to the usual 5x3 wolves paradigm I'm used to). With that, we can barely fit two units of Blood Knights, and we are basically done. Very few wounds on the board, close to zero board presence. On top of this all, Nighthaunt are now allies. This is a huge blow, as 3 units of Chain Rasps would have done nicely to deal with the battleline tax. So. Is this really the end of a LoB VAMPIRE-themed option? Am I missing something important, here? I know that leaning into the Kastelai is the best thing to do, but I am just curious as to whether I can make it work still. It could be just me caring about this option, and that's absolutely ok - just indulge me, and please let me know whether there is anything you'd like to add to this discussion. Thanks!

I will engage in the tantric endeavour of not looking at any rule/leak/preview (well, some are going to slip, I am sure...) until I get the actual book into my greedy hands. I don't want the internet to spoil the magical day when I'll get to open the book, smell the new pages (if you don't do it, there's something wrong with you), dive into the new lore and start thinking about lists. That's the plan, anyway - let's see if I can make it happen (which probably involve staying clear from TGA for a while 😜)

The only problem with that is the name. I don't quite know why, but "Kastelai" sounds really lazy a name to me... The dream? Buffs that specifically target Blood Knights alone, ideally (but not exclusively) from Vhordrai. Let us hope.

As they should be! It's happening. Or maybe not, but we'll make it happen nonetheless.

Black Knights?! No no no, it should read BLOOD Knights, you fools!!! It looks like it's going to be the Kastelai Dynasty for me... which I accept, I LOVE Vhordrai... but I want Nef to be a part of this crimson dream!

Yeah, ok, but... dragons! 😜

Oh, alright, so this is where we are headed... zombies and skellies being very strong. Maybe. Ooof - hordes are not my thing. Give me an elite option!

Ok, I'm inclined to agree and/or trust you, but look at 40K (I know, I know...). The SoB codex was, according to everyone "written with 9Th edition in mind" (it still is a blooming strong codex, by the way), but they are re-doing it this year - less than 12 months from the release of 9Th. What I definitely don't want is a situation like this one... I mean, I'll jump into any Death battle tome in any case, but still.

I would be 100% ok with that. On a VL, the chalice was useless (5 wounds equal certain death if your opponent wants you dead) . On a VLoZD, it was swingy af. On the contrary, D3 back at the end of each combat phase is fantastic, particularly if this applies to the VLoZD & Co. Blood Knights cannot really take advantage of D3 healing... oh wait. Maybe they have more than 3 wounds now? Hold my hand, brothers - the hype is about to shatter this old heart...

Thanks mate. It was to be expected, I guess. As long as I can use (at least some of) what I have, I accept this. I just hope some "proper" bloodlines (yes, the "boring" vampires of the like of Neferata and Mannfred. Sassy, lethal, elegant creatures. Those ones) will survive nightmares, wolves, rats and whatever craziness is about to materialise.

Same - but then again, that's probably the most sensible way forward, particularly for Death players who have a sizeable collection already. The only re-sculpt I'll buy is the Blood Knights - for now. If they'll come up with other dragons... well, they can have my money. They can keep the VL / monster kitbash, I don't care whether they're insanely good or not. Let's see what's in the battle tome. Then we'll talk. Also, I am mildly nervous about the fact this is probably the last battle tome of AoS 2.0? Are we to assume that AoS 3.0 will change everything and makes this battle tome effectively mute?

Obviously too early to draw any sensible conclusion, but Duvalle's 3+ save is most welcome. The fact that the hunger heals D3 is also most welcome. Can't wait. I just can't wait. I apologise if this has been discussed already, but... are we assuming that LoN are being replaced by this battle tome?

Hear, hear

Fair point!

A maxed out unit of Bladeghieist Revenants (20 models) looks like a points-efficient option and a handy one to maximise buffs as well, but in reality: They have a 1" reach on 32mm bases. It's very hard to get even 10 to pile in, particularly as we tend, as NH players, to rely on 9" charges or movement shenanigans, as opposed to "conventional" counter-charges where you position the unit in a very good place to pile in upon your target unit after the charge (and that's because leaving your glass cannon close enough to anything even remotely dangerous on the table is suicidal). Try to keep 20 models on 32mm bases wholly within 12" of the Spirit Torment... I dare you. It's a close-to-impossible task in actual game play, particularly if striking from the underworld. The same applies for the Cruciator's buff: still wholly within, still, effectively, a non-playable option. I hate it with the entirety of my rotten, ghostly heart. Bravery is still an issue, even when they start at bravery 10. These guys are only one wound, most killy units in the game can easily munch through 10 Revenants in one go, even with the 5+ shrug. Remember, we never have enough CPs to do what we really want to do. By the way, can we just take a moment to appreciate that Our Beloved Craven King is still sitting ducks with zero motivation to ever been fielded in an even remotely competitive scenario? Argh. Sniping the Spirit Torment is still a very easy thing to do even if you take into account the 5++ DPR. 5 wounds on a -1 to hit (Look out sir) and a 5++ DPR? Anything with a bow can do that, no problem. You can get the 5++ DPR on two units of 10 Revenants via the good ol' Shroudguard battalion, which costs less then the Cruciator and, crucially (sorry...), does not need any "activation" for the 5++ DPR to kick in. Having said that, the "old" option of bringing 2 units of (10) Revenants, 1 Spirit Torment, 1 KoS on steed and Shroudguard (180+180+120+120+110=710) is way more expensive, so I think the Cruciator might offer an improvement in this context, particularly given he has a decent chance of activating its ability in the shooting phase. Definitely 2 units of 10 Revenants for me, though. I would go as far as saying that the block of 20 is a trap. I like the direction of granting significant buffs via free-of-cost (well, -ish, in this case, you still have to activate the ability somehow, but still...) war scroll abilities as opposed to very pricey battalions. Nighthaunts have a real problem with battalions. Many of them are good, but our units are on average so costly that at the ned of the day I found myself simply bringing more wounds on the table as opposed to marginally increased the durability of the list via battalion-driven synergies. Just my 2 cents, obviously. Thanks for elaborating on Reikenor's potential, folks, I might have overlooked a few options there... keep them coming!

Nope. Not buying the book, not buying the new model. This changes nothing in terms of how this faction plays - and, crucially, it doesn’t mitigate any of the issues that have been there since the battle tome was released. I refuse to engage with the ghosts until we get rid of the “wholly within” nonsense. The attempt to make Stalkers viable is laughable and the Harridans now pale against both Revenants and Reapers. Let’s hope in a new battle tome, but if this is a taste of what it’s there, the future looks a bit bleak. Hopefully I’ll be proven wrong - I’d love to take my ghosts to tournaments again...

* mumble mumble * I might consider to get the book given I like demons anyway... not so sure about what looks like a glorified spirit torment, and definitely not keen on the new box with the scooby-doo villains. But, if the new rules are decent... we’ll have to see!

I'm not a huge fan of Black Library stuff to begin with (almost without fail you can see what's coming from the very start of each book - albeit exceptions exist), but I've read everything Nef-related (because... well, vampires. I am a simple man, I see vampires, I get the book) and I didn't find it entirely obnoxious. I think, on average, they have managed to get across the idea that this is an incredibly old, incredibly smart creature, with a very selfish agenda and powerful means to achieve it, often times without the rest of the world even noticing. They have also managed to make her narrative not necessarily one-sided, in that she is most definitely not invincible in a straight fight (which she almost always manages to avoid, but not quite, and that's great when that happens) nor entirely safe from cunning opponents' plans either. Another element of her narrative that I like a lot is her interaction with the other Mortarchs and Nagash as well. For one thing, she usually gets to be the most talkative of the trio (or quartet, Olynder got a decent book now, so her presence in the fluff is now established by my standards) and the one showing some wit as well. Arkhan... not my cup of tea (don't like the feeling, to give you an idea I never got a single OBR model...) and I find his relationship with Nagash a bit dull. The real loser, in my very personal opinion, is Mannfred. The fluff about him before the end times was decent. Now, he looks like a sad old chap running around without any grand plan and without showing much prowess as well. This release might change that, of course... Man, how long would we have to wait, you reckon? Seriously hyped about this one... gimme my plastic blood knights!

The thing with Nef is that she always comes out on top even when it looks like everything's going down the drain for her... granted, it's quite hard to reflect the spying/manipulating/lying attitude on the tabletop, but magic and command abilities can massively help. Not that its ever going to happen, but I'd love her to be a 5-wound model that re-appears at the other end of the table when she dies, with 7 wounds and a new profile, or some crazy mechanics like that that would do justice to the fact that no one, absolutely no one can outsmart her. Another low-hanging fruit would be to modify her current command ability (which would be admittedly phenomenal if we had ways to stack CPs) in such a way to either stop enemies where they are for a whole battle-round turn (mesmerising, she is!) or even to convince them to betray and join the vampire ranks (because she is the sassiest lady of them all). Turning opponents into vampire has to come back, come on... it's too fluffy not to have it and we used to have it before, so my hopes in that regard are, if not high, at least decent.

100% - they shouldn't die to a stiff breeze and they should get access to much more damage (Mannfred) and magic (Neff). I want Mannfred to be Vhordrai-like at a bare minimum, and I want Neff to be able to do very sneaky, potentially game-swinging things. He/She is - fast (flying horror / nightmare steed versions - of course), Deathly Invocation, not entirely useless in combat, excellent CA. I would probably make them a lil' more durable (with all the silly stuff flying around, 5-wound heroes are tough for Death players...) and, most importantly, give them a signature spell. Each one a different one. The rat king, the wolf person, this goth lady... they all look and feel very different, they deserve their own spell - and it better be a good one! Oh, and: battalions. God yes. We desperately need ones, and we also need how allies to be readily available to join!

Nope... all is great - but the face. She looks like someone who has woken up in suburbian Prague after a crazy hen do she remembers nothing about. I mean, it's a new model, so I can't and won't complain. Maybe I'll put that mask on I personally don't like the idea of the Gods joining the fray. Nagash, Teclis... it feels wrong. It should take much more than 2000 points of anything to bring down the blooming God of Death. Maybe it's just me - but I picture these guys sort of pulverising entire armies with a flick fo their wrist, not get bogged down by 20 marauders or something.