AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Cambot1231]

Here is the Tzeentch list i'm experimenting with.  The core of the models I own are Mortal Chaos so I went and picked up a few pieces of Tzeentch tech to flush it out.  I have blue Horrors and a Herald of Tzeentch on foot for summoning.  The Gaunt Summoner basically makes a block of of Chaos warriors re-roll all saves with Shield of Fate.  Lord of Change sits back with Flamers helping them with +1 to wound and activating their locus if/ when they die.  Chaos sorcerer lord buffs either flamers or Chaos warriors with daemonic power spell.  Let me know what you think and what i might improve (without going into tzaangor) 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Cambot1231

[geekbrewer]

@Cambot1231 I didn't think you could ally in battleline units. Also, I think shield of fate is awesome, but just remember it degrades as you go through your destiny dice.

[geekbrewer]

It might just be me, but I find the "free summoning" for Tzeentch to be lackluster. I'm not trying to start a debate, I am just trying to enrich my playstyle and tactics. I'm also hoping someone can point out to me the playstyle that summoning works with.

It might be my playstyle, but I don't find myself building lists that focus around the summoning. Having to have 10 fate points to bring in a unit of blue horrors isn't too bad, but they have a zone restriction when you summon them, so positioning for me isn't that exciting. I can use them for a bit of a screen, but that is by turn 2 at the earliest. I'm also not in favor of spending 200 points on pink horrors, and using them to work up the blue horror points. I feel like I am just giving up VPs if it comes down to kill points.

[lord_blackfang]

27 minutes ago, geekbrewer said:

@Cambot1231 I didn't think you could ally in battleline units. Also, I think shield of fate is awesome, but just remember it degrades as you go through your destiny dice.

Eh? He's not allying anything. Chaos Warriors can have the TZEENTCH keyword.

[geekbrewer]

54 minutes ago, lord_blackfang said:

Eh? He's not allying anything. Chaos Warriors can have the TZEENTCH keyword.

Roger that. My understanding is that Chaos Warriors, regardless of mark, come from StD, and are battleline StD. Having the Tzeentch keyword just keeps them in line with getting Destiny Dice. I could be wrong though, and defer to someone who has better understanding of this. Also, if someone could cite the page or faq that clarifies this I would appreciate it.

 

Edit: I know this is very rules lawyer, but here is my logic. Page 311 of the core rulebook states "Allied units are not included when working out the number of Battleline units in the army." On page 66 of the GHB, Chaos Warriors aren't listed as Battleline, under the Disciples of Tzeentch. Then on page 68 they are listed as Battleline under StD. Page 69 shows the allies charts, and Disciples of Tzeentch has StD listed as an ally, excluding mark of Nurgle. So I could take StD as mark of Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch and they would be allies. Based on this, I think they are allies, and can't count towards Battleline requirements.

Edited July 26, 2018 by geekbrewer

[Waiyuren]

3 hours ago, geekbrewer said:

Roger that. My understanding is that Chaos Warriors, regardless of mark, come from StD, and are battleline StD. Having the Tzeentch keyword just keeps them in line with getting Destiny Dice. I could be wrong though, and defer to someone who has better understanding of this. Also, if someone could cite the page or faq that clarifies this... 

You build armies based on which keyword you choose, not the faction. A "Disciples of Tzeentch" army only requires units to have the keyword "Tzeentch", no other restrictions, just the keyword.

Read pages 12 and 15 of the basic rules (not the "Core Rules", that term is misleading, the actual game rules), and it should all become clear. ? Maybe, i mean it's GW so; ymmv... ?

Edited July 27, 2018 by Waiyuren
Grammar

[Drib]

Spoiler

12 hours ago, Cambot1231 said:

Here is the Tzeentch list i'm experimenting with.  The core of the models I own are Mortal Chaos so I went and picked up a few pieces of Tzeentch tech to flush it out.  I have blue Horrors and a Herald of Tzeentch on foot for summoning.  The Gaunt Summoner basically makes a block of of Chaos warriors re-roll all saves with Shield of Fate.  Lord of Change sits back with Flamers helping them with +1 to wound and activating their locus if/ when they die.  Chaos sorcerer lord buffs either flamers or Chaos warriors with daemonic power spell.  Let me know what you think and what i might improve (without going into tzaangor) 

 

You are using one Artefact too much and I would sugguest Cogs with Mark of the Conjurer on the LoC for more summoning. And you might consider switchning the Gaunt Summoner's and the Sorcerer Lord's spell, as you realy want to keep the Gaunt Summoner alive.

[Cambot1231]

37 minutes ago, Drib said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

You are using one Artefact too much and I would sugguest Cogs with Mark of the Conjurer on the LoC for more summoning. And you might consider switchning the Gaunt Summoner's and the Sorcerer Lord's spell, as you realy want to keep the Gaunt Summoner alive.

All good points! Cogs looks really great with the LoC. 

[obmik1]

Any thoughts on soulsnare shackles and prismatic palisade in a tzeentch list? Useful control spells or trap? Anyone had much look with them. Any interesting uses? 

[Gilby]

On 7/27/2018 at 12:39 AM, geekbrewer said:

So I could take StD as mark of Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch and they would be allies.

No, you can take them, unmarked/Khorne/Slaanesh as allies. When marked with Tzeentch they are no longer allies as they're part of the DoT.

 

[Gilby]

So, was wondering if I could get some advice on the following list.

 

Lord Of Change (380)
- Artefact : Mark of the Conjurer
- Lore of Change : Bolt of Tzeentch
Herald Of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Lore of Change : Tzeentch's Firestorm
Herald Of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Lore of Change : Unchecked Mutation
The Blue Scribes (140)
- Lore of Change : Bolt of Tzeentch
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)
- General
- Command Trait : Magical Supremacy
- Artefact : Ignax's Scales
- Lore of Fate : Treacherous Bond

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change : Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change : Treason of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change : Fold Reality
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (70)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (70)

Changehost (180)

Chronomantic Cogs (60)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)

 

Plan had been to take turn one, use the umbral portal and throw all my spells and endless spells into the most important part of my opponent's army. And generate like 12 fate points doing that. With the recent FAQ limiting the portal to one spell I decided to remove it and give LoC another spell with the cogs and the extra fate points as he always rolls a double (so 6 a turn from him). I'd also hoped to use the Curseling to steal/unbind endless spells and get them myself (but that has been quite rightly removed as an option too). I'll still use him to steal and unbind when I can cast the spell myself though.

 

Plan is still to use the geminids and shackles to try and tie down the board a little. Use the brims to deny space/bubble wrap and basically sacrafice pinks for blues->brims whilst generating enough fate points to put down more pinks.

 

So in light of that does anyone have any suggestions of what I could do and any minor tweaks? What is my biggest weakness/oversight? Feels pretty glass cannony to start with and with the portal gone I'm not sure it's even a cannon anymore!
 

Edited July 28, 2018 by Gilby

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, Gilby said:

No, you can take them, unmarked/Khorne/Slaanesh as allies. When marked with Tzeentch they are no longer allies as they're part of the DoT.

 

I swear we always have to clarify this every 3 weeks!?

Though I suppose I sort of understand the confusion. I mean...

1. The books' names are not the allegiance names, in fact all references to the Battletome Names are zero (outside of FW erroneously referring the Nurgle allegiance as the Maggotkin of Nurgle Allegiance). So the Allegiance is not DoT, its just Tzeentch.

2. Slaves are not in the Battletome themselves, so people think "Battletome units = entire allegiance. Therefore everything else is not part of the allegiance."  (and then you get into the fun fact that the entirety of the Skaven Pestilens Allegiance can also be taken as Nurgle units!)

3. There are a number of units that are Battleline in Slaves armies, but not Battleline in others (Chariots , Knights, Marauder Horsemen). Warriors and Marauders though are Battleline no matter the allegiance.

4. You have "keyword factions" that in the new books really only restrict artifacts, traits, a few abilities, and battalions. In tzeentch's case its Arcanites of Tzeentch (who are also mortal) and Daemons of Tzeentch. However they're all still part of the same allegiance/faction!

5. Theres 3 friggin Forms of the Gaunt Summoner! In different books/online!

[TheOtherJosh]

On 7/26/2018 at 4:39 PM, geekbrewer said:

My understanding is that Chaos Warriors, regardless of mark, come from StD, and are battleline StD. Having the Tzeentch keyword just keeps them in line with getting Destiny Dice. I could be wrong though, and defer to someone who has better understanding of this. Also, if someone could cite the page or faq that clarifies this I would appreciate it.

 

Edit: I know this is very rules lawyer, but here is my logic. Page 311 of the core rulebook states "Allied units are not included when working out the number of Battleline units in the army." On page 66 of the GHB, Chaos Warriors aren't listed as Battleline, under the Disciples of Tzeentch. Then on page 68 they are listed as Battleline under StD. Page 69 shows the allies charts, and Disciples of Tzeentch has StD listed as an ally, excluding mark of Nurgle. So I could take StD as mark of Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch and they would be allies. Based on this, I think they are allies, and can't count towards Battleline requirements.

Okay. To elaborate on the comments by @kenshin620

Units that don’t have a “conditional” statement in their notes field are always Battleline in a Faction or Grand Alliance Army.

For example “Chaos Chariots” are ‘Battleline-if’. If they are in an StD army they are battleline. Otherwise, they’re an “other”.

Your rule for what units can go into an Allegiance to a Faction is in the Core Book p.242:

“An army can have allegiance to a faction instead of a Grand Alliance if all the units in the army have the keyword for that faction, including any units that you assign a keyword to during set-up.”

Chaos Warriors don’t have the TZEENTCH keyword natively, but can have it added to them on Setup. Therefore, they can be used as part of the Faction, and for determining the Allegiance of the Army. If you are part of the Faction, you’re not considered an ally.

Allies are not part of the Faction, and if included in an army would break the army Allegiance:

“Allied units are treated as part of your army, except that they are not included when working out your army’s allegiance, and can therefore be part of a different Grand Alliance or faction. [...]” (P.242)

As you can see, you don’t include them when determining your allegiance.

As @kenshin620 pointed out there is no “Disciples of Tzeentch” Allegiance, there is a TZEENTCH Allegiance. (This is the same as KHORNE, NURGLE and SLAANESH.)

So, you are correct in one part.

IF they were unable to be part of the Allegiance, they would follow the rules on p.311. And they would not be able to be qualified as part of that army (except as Allies.)

But because they can, that section doesn’t apply due to P.242.

Edited July 28, 2018 by TheOtherJosh

[Satyrical Sophist]

In 1000 points you can get a LoC with Mark of the Conjurer, a curseling, 20 pinks and cogs for exactly 1k. That's ten fate points a turn. It's fragile as hell, but that's a lot of fate points.

[Waiyuren]

35 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

In 1000 points you can get a LoC with Mark of the Conjurer, a curseling, 20 pinks and cogs for exactly 1k. That's ten fate points a turn. It's fragile as hell, but that's a lot of fate points.

I'm running loc, guant, 30 acolytes, a jabberslythe, and a balewind at 1k.

That's only 7 fate points, but even with 20 extra wounds I'm still worried I don't have enough bodies!... ?

[Warzin]

I'm thinking of starting my first army as Tzeentch.

With a bit of reading up and a lot of thinking about it I came up with two potential lists. I'm just wondering how good/terrible these would be and which of the two would you guys advice me to aim for? Or would both suck so bad that I shouldn't aim for them?

Both are based on Tzaangor Shaman + Alter-kin Coven creating more Tzaangor and using an Ogroid Thaumaturge with Infusion Arcanum, a Chaos Runeblade, and casting Arcane Transformation on him.

Leaders
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- General
- Trait: Blessing of Tzeentch
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
Magister (140)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
- Artefact: Chaos Runeblade
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum

Battleline
30 x Kairic Acolytes (240)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (220)

Battalions
Alter-kin Coven (130)
Arcanite Cabal (180)
Cult of the Transient Form (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Wounds: 117

or

Leaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
- Artefact: Rageblade
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- General
- Trait: Blessing of Tzeentch
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Tzaangors (180)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (220)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (220)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160)

Battalions
Alter-kin Coven (130)
Tzaangor Coven (110)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Wounds: 126

Planning on painting them as raven like Tzaangor and Beastman like Ogroid/Magister. Hence the Ghur artifact.

Would appreciate any advice. (If I'm posting this in the wrong forum please advice me where to go)

[kenshin620]

By the way, has anyone thought of running marauders in Tzeentch as Arcane Sacrifice fodder? Quite a bit cheaper than acolytes but less range power.

 

On 7/29/2018 at 5:48 AM, Warzin said:

Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)

- Artefact: Chaos Runeblade
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum

I believe that unfortunately you can no longer take GA artifacts when you use a "proper" (ie traits, artifacts, etc) allegiance. At least thats what I've heard.

 

(so another example is if you used the Brayheard allegiance, you can't use the Chaos GA items, but if you used the Warherd allegiance which has no traits, you can use the GA items).

[TheOtherJosh]

15 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

I believe that unfortunately you can no longer take GA artifacts when you use a "proper" (ie traits, artifacts, etc) allegiance. At least thats what I've heard.

Correct, You can only use GA Traits if you either take the ga, or if your allegiance doesn’t have their own traits... (eg Moonclan Or Tomb Kings)

That was clarified in the most recent GHB 2018 Errata:

Generals Handbook Errata for P. 62 – Pitched Battle Profile, Introduction
Add the following section:
‘ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES
If a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, then you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Eshin army you could use the Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance abilities, and if you had an Order Draconis army you could use the Grand Alliance Order allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.’

[kenshin620]

28 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Correct, You can only use GA Traits if you either take the ga, or if your allegiance doesn’t have their own traits... (eg Moonclan Or Tomb Kings)

That was clarified in the most recent GHB 2018 Errata:

Generals Handbook Errata for P. 62 – Pitched Battle Profile, Introduction
Add the following section:
‘ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES
If a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, then you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Eshin army you could use the Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance abilities, and if you had an Order Draconis army you could use the Grand Alliance Order allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.’

Yea that's it. You'd think the reason for GA items is that anyone can take them, but noooooo. The top brass of the Faction gets jealous or something.

 

Which is a tad silly with I'd say the Death allegiance the most. There is basically no reason at all to take GA Death (and its step child list The Wraith Fleet), so all those artifacts are sadly dead, no pun intended (also pretty funny since they reprinted GA Death within the LoN battletome). Which is a shame since I think their Blade of Dark Summons would have been an interesting item to take (Mmmmm free 12 unit Myrmourn Banshees).

[Drib]

2 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

By the way, has anyone thought of running marauders in Tzeentch as Arcane Sacrifice fodder? Quite a bit cheaper than acolytes but less range power.

I like Chaos Warrior or Pink Horrors more, the fist can ignore mortal wounds on 5+, the Pinks will be foldable, battleshockable  and bring in some blue points.

[TheOtherJosh]

14 minutes ago, Drib said:

 

2 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

By the way, has anyone thought of running marauders in Tzeentch as Arcane Sacrifice fodder? Quite a bit cheaper than acolytes but less range power.

I like Chaos Warrior or Pink Horrors more, the fist can ignore mortal wounds on 5+, the Pinks will be foldable, battleshockable  and bring in some blue points.

The lowly Acolyte (when equipped with a shield) also ignores wounds and mortal wounds on a 6+

But, I’d like to mention “Treacherous Bond” the Arcanite/Mortal Spell that treats a unit like a “Look out, Sir” as long as they’re within 9” (Ogroid Thaumaturge + Treacherous Bond [Pink Horrors] = Fun!)

[Warzin]

4 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

By the way, has anyone thought of running marauders in Tzeentch as Arcane Sacrifice fodder? Quite a bit cheaper than acolytes but less range power.

 

I believe that unfortunately you can no longer take GA artifacts when you use a "proper" (ie traits, artifacts, etc) allegiance. At least thats what I've heard.

 

(so another example is if you used the Brayheard allegiance, you can't use the Chaos GA items, but if you used the Warherd allegiance which has no traits, you can use the GA items).

so going Ghur with Rageblade is actualy pretty good then? as it has the same effect (+1 attack on one melee weapon)?

My question still remains if the lists I concocted are terrible, decent or even good? and which one should I aim for? I kinda like both.

(Magister would get another artifact as you can only get one realm specific artifact as far as I read)

I appreciate the help so far:).

[TheOtherJosh]

54 minutes ago, Warzin said:

(Magister would get another artifact as you can only get one realm specific artifact as far as I read)

If you have battalions, then you can take additional Artefacts... and any of those could be from the one specific realm chosen as the realm of origin for your army.

Per Malign Sorcery p.79:

“After choosing the allegiance for your army, you can decide that it is from a specific Mortal Realm. If you do so, you can select any of your artefacts of power from either or both of the lists in this section for the realm that you chose. [...]”

[Kurrilino]

On 7/26/2018 at 5:39 PM, geekbrewer said:

Roger that. My understanding is that Chaos Warriors, regardless of mark, come from StD, and are battleline StD. Having the Tzeentch keyword just keeps them in line with getting Destiny Dice. I could be wrong though, and defer to someone who has better understanding of this. Also, if someone could cite the page or faq that clarifies this I would appreciate it.

 

Edit: I know this is very rules lawyer, but here is my logic. Page 311 of the core rulebook states "Allied units are not included when working out the number of Battleline units in the army." On page 66 of the GHB, Chaos Warriors aren't listed as Battleline, under the Disciples of Tzeentch. Then on page 68 they are listed as Battleline under StD. Page 69 shows the allies charts, and Disciples of Tzeentch has StD listed as an ally, excluding mark of Nurgle. So I could take StD as mark of Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch and they would be allies. Based on this, I think they are allies, and can't count towards Battleline requirements.

As soon as Warriors of chaos get the Tzeentch keyword they are Army of Tzeentch.

Having the Tzeentch keyword is the only requirement to do so. This is why it's called Army or Forces of Tzeentch.

Disciples of Tzeentch is the book title only.

[Sigwarus]

This is a potential list of mine for a upcoming tournament :

 

Curseling

Lord of change

Gaunt Summoner 

Tzangor shaman 

30 Tzangors 

10 acolytes 

10 acolytes 

10 blue horrors 

6 enlightened 

Pendulum 

 

Thoughts?