Cambot1231 Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) Here is the Tzeentch list i'm experimenting with. The core of the models I own are Mortal Chaos so I went and picked up a few pieces of Tzeentch tech to flush it out. I have blue Horrors and a Herald of Tzeentch on foot for summoning. The Gaunt Summoner basically makes a block of of Chaos warriors re-roll all saves with Shield of Fate. Lord of Change sits back with Flamers helping them with +1 to wound and activating their locus if/ when they die. Chaos sorcerer lord buffs either flamers or Chaos warriors with daemonic power spell. Let me know what you think and what i might improve (without going into tzaangor) Edited July 26, 2018 by Cambot1231 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geekbrewer Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 @Cambot1231 I didn't think you could ally in battleline units. Also, I think shield of fate is awesome, but just remember it degrades as you go through your destiny dice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geekbrewer Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 It might just be me, but I find the "free summoning" for Tzeentch to be lackluster. I'm not trying to start a debate, I am just trying to enrich my playstyle and tactics. I'm also hoping someone can point out to me the playstyle that summoning works with. It might be my playstyle, but I don't find myself building lists that focus around the summoning. Having to have 10 fate points to bring in a unit of blue horrors isn't too bad, but they have a zone restriction when you summon them, so positioning for me isn't that exciting. I can use them for a bit of a screen, but that is by turn 2 at the earliest. I'm also not in favor of spending 200 points on pink horrors, and using them to work up the blue horror points. I feel like I am just giving up VPs if it comes down to kill points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord_blackfang Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 27 minutes ago, geekbrewer said: @Cambot1231 I didn't think you could ally in battleline units. Also, I think shield of fate is awesome, but just remember it degrades as you go through your destiny dice. Eh? He's not allying anything. Chaos Warriors can have the TZEENTCH keyword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geekbrewer Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, lord_blackfang said: Eh? He's not allying anything. Chaos Warriors can have the TZEENTCH keyword. Roger that. My understanding is that Chaos Warriors, regardless of mark, come from StD, and are battleline StD. Having the Tzeentch keyword just keeps them in line with getting Destiny Dice. I could be wrong though, and defer to someone who has better understanding of this. Also, if someone could cite the page or faq that clarifies this I would appreciate it. Edit: I know this is very rules lawyer, but here is my logic. Page 311 of the core rulebook states "Allied units are not included when working out the number of Battleline units in the army." On page 66 of the GHB, Chaos Warriors aren't listed as Battleline, under the Disciples of Tzeentch. Then on page 68 they are listed as Battleline under StD. Page 69 shows the allies charts, and Disciples of Tzeentch has StD listed as an ally, excluding mark of Nurgle. So I could take StD as mark of Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch and they would be allies. Based on this, I think they are allies, and can't count towards Battleline requirements. Edited July 26, 2018 by geekbrewer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiyuren Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, geekbrewer said: Roger that. My understanding is that Chaos Warriors, regardless of mark, come from StD, and are battleline StD. Having the Tzeentch keyword just keeps them in line with getting Destiny Dice. I could be wrong though, and defer to someone who has better understanding of this. Also, if someone could cite the page or faq that clarifies this... You build armies based on which keyword you choose, not the faction. A "Disciples of Tzeentch" army only requires units to have the keyword "Tzeentch", no other restrictions, just the keyword. Read pages 12 and 15 of the basic rules (not the "Core Rules", that term is misleading, the actual game rules), and it should all become clear. ? Maybe, i mean it's GW so; ymmv... ? Edited July 27, 2018 by Waiyuren Grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drib Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 Spoiler 12 hours ago, Cambot1231 said: Here is the Tzeentch list i'm experimenting with. The core of the models I own are Mortal Chaos so I went and picked up a few pieces of Tzeentch tech to flush it out. I have blue Horrors and a Herald of Tzeentch on foot for summoning. The Gaunt Summoner basically makes a block of of Chaos warriors re-roll all saves with Shield of Fate. Lord of Change sits back with Flamers helping them with +1 to wound and activating their locus if/ when they die. Chaos sorcerer lord buffs either flamers or Chaos warriors with daemonic power spell. Let me know what you think and what i might improve (without going into tzaangor) You are using one Artefact too much and I would sugguest Cogs with Mark of the Conjurer on the LoC for more summoning. And you might consider switchning the Gaunt Summoner's and the Sorcerer Lord's spell, as you realy want to keep the Gaunt Summoner alive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambot1231 Posted July 27, 2018 Share Posted July 27, 2018 37 minutes ago, Drib said: Reveal hidden contents You are using one Artefact too much and I would sugguest Cogs with Mark of the Conjurer on the LoC for more summoning. And you might consider switchning the Gaunt Summoner's and the Sorcerer Lord's spell, as you realy want to keep the Gaunt Summoner alive. All good points! Cogs looks really great with the LoC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obmik1 Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 Any thoughts on soulsnare shackles and prismatic palisade in a tzeentch list? Useful control spells or trap? Anyone had much look with them. Any interesting uses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilby Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 On 7/27/2018 at 12:39 AM, geekbrewer said: So I could take StD as mark of Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch and they would be allies. No, you can take them, unmarked/Khorne/Slaanesh as allies. When marked with Tzeentch they are no longer allies as they're part of the DoT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilby Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) So, was wondering if I could get some advice on the following list. Lord Of Change (380)- Artefact : Mark of the Conjurer - Lore of Change : Bolt of TzeentchHerald Of Tzeentch (140)- Staff of Change - Lore of Change : Tzeentch's FirestormHerald Of Tzeentch (140)- Staff of Change - Lore of Change : Unchecked MutationThe Blue Scribes (140)- Lore of Change : Bolt of TzeentchCurseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)- General - Command Trait : Magical Supremacy - Artefact : Ignax's Scales - Lore of Fate : Treacherous Bond10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)- Lore of Change : Bolt of Tzeentch10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)- Lore of Change : Treason of Tzeentch10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)- Lore of Change : Fold Reality10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (70) 10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (70)Changehost (180)Chronomantic Cogs (60) Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (40) Soulsnare Shackles (20) Plan had been to take turn one, use the umbral portal and throw all my spells and endless spells into the most important part of my opponent's army. And generate like 12 fate points doing that. With the recent FAQ limiting the portal to one spell I decided to remove it and give LoC another spell with the cogs and the extra fate points as he always rolls a double (so 6 a turn from him). I'd also hoped to use the Curseling to steal/unbind endless spells and get them myself (but that has been quite rightly removed as an option too). I'll still use him to steal and unbind when I can cast the spell myself though. Plan is still to use the geminids and shackles to try and tie down the board a little. Use the brims to deny space/bubble wrap and basically sacrafice pinks for blues->brims whilst generating enough fate points to put down more pinks. So in light of that does anyone have any suggestions of what I could do and any minor tweaks? What is my biggest weakness/oversight? Feels pretty glass cannony to start with and with the portal gone I'm not sure it's even a cannon anymore! Edited July 28, 2018 by Gilby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Gilby said: No, you can take them, unmarked/Khorne/Slaanesh as allies. When marked with Tzeentch they are no longer allies as they're part of the DoT. I swear we always have to clarify this every 3 weeks!? Though I suppose I sort of understand the confusion. I mean... 1. The books' names are not the allegiance names, in fact all references to the Battletome Names are zero (outside of FW erroneously referring the Nurgle allegiance as the Maggotkin of Nurgle Allegiance). So the Allegiance is not DoT, its just Tzeentch. 2. Slaves are not in the Battletome themselves, so people think "Battletome units = entire allegiance. Therefore everything else is not part of the allegiance." (and then you get into the fun fact that the entirety of the Skaven Pestilens Allegiance can also be taken as Nurgle units!) 3. There are a number of units that are Battleline in Slaves armies, but not Battleline in others (Chariots , Knights, Marauder Horsemen). Warriors and Marauders though are Battleline no matter the allegiance. 4. You have "keyword factions" that in the new books really only restrict artifacts, traits, a few abilities, and battalions. In tzeentch's case its Arcanites of Tzeentch (who are also mortal) and Daemons of Tzeentch. However they're all still part of the same allegiance/faction! 5. Theres 3 friggin Forms of the Gaunt Summoner! In different books/online! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) On 7/26/2018 at 4:39 PM, geekbrewer said: My understanding is that Chaos Warriors, regardless of mark, come from StD, and are battleline StD. Having the Tzeentch keyword just keeps them in line with getting Destiny Dice. I could be wrong though, and defer to someone who has better understanding of this. Also, if someone could cite the page or faq that clarifies this I would appreciate it. Edit: I know this is very rules lawyer, but here is my logic. Page 311 of the core rulebook states "Allied units are not included when working out the number of Battleline units in the army." On page 66 of the GHB, Chaos Warriors aren't listed as Battleline, under the Disciples of Tzeentch. Then on page 68 they are listed as Battleline under StD. Page 69 shows the allies charts, and Disciples of Tzeentch has StD listed as an ally, excluding mark of Nurgle. So I could take StD as mark of Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch and they would be allies. Based on this, I think they are allies, and can't count towards Battleline requirements. Okay. To elaborate on the comments by @kenshin620 Units that don’t have a “conditional” statement in their notes field are always Battleline in a Faction or Grand Alliance Army. For example “Chaos Chariots” are ‘Battleline-if’. If they are in an StD army they are battleline. Otherwise, they’re an “other”. Your rule for what units can go into an Allegiance to a Faction is in the Core Book p.242: “An army can have allegiance to a faction instead of a Grand Alliance if all the units in the army have the keyword for that faction, including any units that you assign a keyword to during set-up.” Chaos Warriors don’t have the TZEENTCH keyword natively, but can have it added to them on Setup. Therefore, they can be used as part of the Faction, and for determining the Allegiance of the Army. If you are part of the Faction, you’re not considered an ally. Allies are not part of the Faction, and if included in an army would break the army Allegiance: “Allied units are treated as part of your army, except that they are not included when working out your army’s allegiance, and can therefore be part of a different Grand Alliance or faction. [...]” (P.242) As you can see, you don’t include them when determining your allegiance. As @kenshin620 pointed out there is no “Disciples of Tzeentch” Allegiance, there is a TZEENTCH Allegiance. (This is the same as KHORNE, NURGLE and SLAANESH.) So, you are correct in one part. IF they were unable to be part of the Allegiance, they would follow the rules on p.311. And they would not be able to be qualified as part of that army (except as Allies.) But because they can, that section doesn’t apply due to P.242. Edited July 28, 2018 by TheOtherJosh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satyrical Sophist Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 In 1000 points you can get a LoC with Mark of the Conjurer, a curseling, 20 pinks and cogs for exactly 1k. That's ten fate points a turn. It's fragile as hell, but that's a lot of fate points. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waiyuren Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 35 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said: In 1000 points you can get a LoC with Mark of the Conjurer, a curseling, 20 pinks and cogs for exactly 1k. That's ten fate points a turn. It's fragile as hell, but that's a lot of fate points. I'm running loc, guant, 30 acolytes, a jabberslythe, and a balewind at 1k. That's only 7 fate points, but even with 20 extra wounds I'm still worried I don't have enough bodies!... ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warzin Posted July 29, 2018 Share Posted July 29, 2018 I'm thinking of starting my first army as Tzeentch. With a bit of reading up and a lot of thinking about it I came up with two potential lists. I'm just wondering how good/terrible these would be and which of the two would you guys advice me to aim for? Or would both suck so bad that I shouldn't aim for them? Both are based on Tzaangor Shaman + Alter-kin Coven creating more Tzaangor and using an Ogroid Thaumaturge with Infusion Arcanum, a Chaos Runeblade, and casting Arcane Transformation on him. Leaders Tzaangor Shaman (180) - General - Trait: Blessing of Tzeentch - Artefact: Aura of Mutability - Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond Tzaangor Shaman (180) - Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch - Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation Magister (140) - Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm - Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future Ogroid Thaumaturge (180) - Artefact: Chaos Runeblade - Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum Battleline 30 x Kairic Acolytes (240) 20 x Tzaangors (360) 10 x Kairic Acolytes (80) Units 3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (220) Battalions Alter-kin Coven (130) Arcanite Cabal (180) Cult of the Transient Form (100) Total: 1990 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 3 Wounds: 117 or Leaders Ogroid Thaumaturge (180) - Artefact: Rageblade - Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum Tzaangor Shaman (180) - Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch - Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation Tzaangor Shaman (180) - General - Trait: Blessing of Tzeentch - Artefact: Aura of Mutability - Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future Battleline 10 x Kairic Acolytes (80) 20 x Tzaangors (360) 10 x Tzaangors (180) Units 3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (220) 3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (220) 3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (160) Battalions Alter-kin Coven (130) Tzaangor Coven (110) Total: 2000 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 2 Wounds: 126 Planning on painting them as raven like Tzaangor and Beastman like Ogroid/Magister. Hence the Ghur artifact. Would appreciate any advice. (If I'm posting this in the wrong forum please advice me where to go) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 By the way, has anyone thought of running marauders in Tzeentch as Arcane Sacrifice fodder? Quite a bit cheaper than acolytes but less range power. On 7/29/2018 at 5:48 AM, Warzin said: Ogroid Thaumaturge (180) - Artefact: Chaos Runeblade - Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum I believe that unfortunately you can no longer take GA artifacts when you use a "proper" (ie traits, artifacts, etc) allegiance. At least thats what I've heard. (so another example is if you used the Brayheard allegiance, you can't use the Chaos GA items, but if you used the Warherd allegiance which has no traits, you can use the GA items). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 15 minutes ago, kenshin620 said: I believe that unfortunately you can no longer take GA artifacts when you use a "proper" (ie traits, artifacts, etc) allegiance. At least thats what I've heard. Correct, You can only use GA Traits if you either take the ga, or if your allegiance doesn’t have their own traits... (eg Moonclan Or Tomb Kings) That was clarified in the most recent GHB 2018 Errata: Generals Handbook Errata for P. 62 – Pitched Battle Profile, Introduction Add the following section: ‘ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES If a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, then you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Eshin army you could use the Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance abilities, and if you had an Order Draconis army you could use the Grand Alliance Order allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.’ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenshin620 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 28 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said: Correct, You can only use GA Traits if you either take the ga, or if your allegiance doesn’t have their own traits... (eg Moonclan Or Tomb Kings) That was clarified in the most recent GHB 2018 Errata: Generals Handbook Errata for P. 62 – Pitched Battle Profile, Introduction Add the following section: ‘ARMIES WITHOUT ALLEGIANCE ABILITIES If a faction army does not have a set of allegiance abilities, then you can use its Grand Alliance allegiance abilities instead. For example, if you had an Eshin army you could use the Grand Alliance Chaos allegiance abilities, and if you had an Order Draconis army you could use the Grand Alliance Order allegiance abilities. Note that if allegiance abilities exist for a faction army, you must use them.’ Yea that's it. You'd think the reason for GA items is that anyone can take them, but noooooo. The top brass of the Faction gets jealous or something. Which is a tad silly with I'd say the Death allegiance the most. There is basically no reason at all to take GA Death (and its step child list The Wraith Fleet), so all those artifacts are sadly dead, no pun intended (also pretty funny since they reprinted GA Death within the LoN battletome). Which is a shame since I think their Blade of Dark Summons would have been an interesting item to take (Mmmmm free 12 unit Myrmourn Banshees). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drib Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 hours ago, kenshin620 said: By the way, has anyone thought of running marauders in Tzeentch as Arcane Sacrifice fodder? Quite a bit cheaper than acolytes but less range power. I like Chaos Warrior or Pink Horrors more, the fist can ignore mortal wounds on 5+, the Pinks will be foldable, battleshockable and bring in some blue points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 14 minutes ago, Drib said: 2 hours ago, kenshin620 said: By the way, has anyone thought of running marauders in Tzeentch as Arcane Sacrifice fodder? Quite a bit cheaper than acolytes but less range power. I like Chaos Warrior or Pink Horrors more, the fist can ignore mortal wounds on 5+, the Pinks will be foldable, battleshockable and bring in some blue points. The lowly Acolyte (when equipped with a shield) also ignores wounds and mortal wounds on a 6+ But, I’d like to mention “Treacherous Bond” the Arcanite/Mortal Spell that treats a unit like a “Look out, Sir” as long as they’re within 9” (Ogroid Thaumaturge + Treacherous Bond [Pink Horrors] = Fun!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warzin Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 4 hours ago, kenshin620 said: By the way, has anyone thought of running marauders in Tzeentch as Arcane Sacrifice fodder? Quite a bit cheaper than acolytes but less range power. I believe that unfortunately you can no longer take GA artifacts when you use a "proper" (ie traits, artifacts, etc) allegiance. At least thats what I've heard. (so another example is if you used the Brayheard allegiance, you can't use the Chaos GA items, but if you used the Warherd allegiance which has no traits, you can use the GA items). so going Ghur with Rageblade is actualy pretty good then? as it has the same effect (+1 attack on one melee weapon)? My question still remains if the lists I concocted are terrible, decent or even good? and which one should I aim for? I kinda like both. (Magister would get another artifact as you can only get one realm specific artifact as far as I read) I appreciate the help so far:). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherJosh Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 54 minutes ago, Warzin said: (Magister would get another artifact as you can only get one realm specific artifact as far as I read) If you have battalions, then you can take additional Artefacts... and any of those could be from the one specific realm chosen as the realm of origin for your army. Per Malign Sorcery p.79: “After choosing the allegiance for your army, you can decide that it is from a specific Mortal Realm. If you do so, you can select any of your artefacts of power from either or both of the lists in this section for the realm that you chose. [...]” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurrilino Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 On 7/26/2018 at 5:39 PM, geekbrewer said: Roger that. My understanding is that Chaos Warriors, regardless of mark, come from StD, and are battleline StD. Having the Tzeentch keyword just keeps them in line with getting Destiny Dice. I could be wrong though, and defer to someone who has better understanding of this. Also, if someone could cite the page or faq that clarifies this I would appreciate it. Edit: I know this is very rules lawyer, but here is my logic. Page 311 of the core rulebook states "Allied units are not included when working out the number of Battleline units in the army." On page 66 of the GHB, Chaos Warriors aren't listed as Battleline, under the Disciples of Tzeentch. Then on page 68 they are listed as Battleline under StD. Page 69 shows the allies charts, and Disciples of Tzeentch has StD listed as an ally, excluding mark of Nurgle. So I could take StD as mark of Khorne, Slaanesh, or Tzeentch and they would be allies. Based on this, I think they are allies, and can't count towards Battleline requirements. As soon as Warriors of chaos get the Tzeentch keyword they are Army of Tzeentch. Having the Tzeentch keyword is the only requirement to do so. This is why it's called Army or Forces of Tzeentch. Disciples of Tzeentch is the book title only. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigwarus Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 This is a potential list of mine for a upcoming tournament : Curseling Lord of change Gaunt Summoner Tzangor shaman 30 Tzangors 10 acolytes 10 acolytes 10 blue horrors 6 enlightened Pendulum Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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