AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[GeneralZero]

3 hours ago, Neffelo said:

Again, the reality is that the first LoC is incredibly powerful, and force multiplier, but you get diminishing returns when you have multiple, and as of right now I don't see that the benefit is worth it over the power that some of the other covens offer. 

 

That is one of the reason I'm trying to build a list not with a LoC first but with Kairos. The idea is to get the LoC first turn and then, use Kairos spawn summoning. 

With a magister getting spans, kairos getting spawns, a Gaunt summoning pink horrors and all of them firing spells, I think this strategy can help the main army. If nothing goes too wrong, I know that a second LoC can EVENTUALLY be summoned around T3/T4 (but I'm not counting on that). I want spawns to slow down my oponent, to annoy him, letting my main force do his thing.

Kairos=3 spells

Gaunt+vortex=3 spells

magister on disc = 1 spell 

changeling = 2 spells

(=>9 spells)

and eventually 1 more (ogroid? love the mini) (1/2 spells)

plus 1/2 * kairic. (1/2 spells)

Is the pink horror unit summoned T1 able to cast immediatly? I think so (1 spell)

 

That means that at T2, I can expect already 1  or 2 spawns (3+ if lucky) , 10 pinks, a LoC (most of them sumoned T1 or T2), this is 100+200+380 bonus and 4 units. Not bad for board control. I think that 2 spawns a turn can really be a pain for the enemy mobility.

 

 

[Grotruk]

I would like to play a build like this too.

Blue scribes seem really tempting  as you play a lot of casters.

I'm thinking to add  some kind of TZAANGORS  to have a bit more staying power/damage and better use with agendas.

 

 

[AverageBoss]

7 hours ago, Neffelo said:

Yes, they all get two spells, but since they only get one lore spell and infernal gateway, means that start hit the diminishing returns on arcane bolt and mystic shield unless you are packing a lot endless spells. 

The dispelling multiple endless spells is the same situation. Besides Tzeentch very few armies run that many endless spells. I'll often see 1-2 max, and that's if you didn't dispell it in the first place. 

Even the two dispels is the same thing. Most armies aren't casting 6 spells a turn. 

Additionally, you are adding all this spell-casting power, to the army that has already been geared to casting a lot of spells to generate the fate points for summoning.  It starts to be less and less optimal because of this. 

Again, the reality is that the first LoC is incredibly powerful, and force multiplier, but you get diminishing returns when you have multiple, and as of right now I don't see that the benefit is worth it over the power that some of the other covens offer. 

 

Between the 6 lore spells they can choose from, Infernal Gateway, Mystic Shield, Arcane Bolt, the Endless spells in your list, and Realm spells, they should have plenty to cast. And yes, while 6 spell on the opponents side will not be that common, 4 is very common. And Mastery of Magic applies to unbinding rolls too, which is pretty huge. And spell casting can be good for spell castings sake. Spells like Curse of Rust of Banishment can swing games, and a LoC is more likely to get those off than anyone else.

[Fredenkvist]

I'm thinking about running this list. Any suggestions on changes?

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Artefact: The Ragged Cloak
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous bond
The Changeling (120)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)

Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Tome of Eyes (40)
Purple Sun of Shyish (50)
Soulsnare Shackles (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 94
 

[Neffelo]

44 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Between the 6 lore spells they can choose from, Infernal Gateway, Mystic Shield, Arcane Bolt, the Endless spells in your list, and Realm spells, they should have plenty to cast. And yes, while 6 spell on the opponents side will not be that common, 4 is very common. And Mastery of Magic applies to unbinding rolls too, which is pretty huge. And spell casting can be good for spell castings sake. Spells like Curse of Rust of Banishment can swing games, and a LoC is more likely to get those off than anyone else.

Again though, to even get the fate points required you already have a very heavy spellcasting army. you are already going to have at least nine casts and unbinds, usually more since you can fail or have them unbinded to even generate the fate points needed to summon them consistently.  When you are adding 2-4 more spellcasts/unbindings (Even if they are higher quality) in a list that is already likely generating 11-12 consistently you are just reaching a point where the LoC are not adding near as much value to the army.

It also seems much more difficult to bring a battalion, which is a bit of a downside. We have so many powerful artifacts locked behind one. 

As for realm spells,  a lot of tournaments and places still don't allow them, for whatever reason. This unfortunately something that varies significantly from area to area, so you can't count on that until it becomes standard. 

 

[Deadkitten]

11 hours ago, Neffelo said:

 I think that's the only reason why this coven exists, is because GW understood that multiple LoC really arn't that scary and fate points are relatively hard to come by.  

That and the Cthulu Cultist vibe was too good to pass up!

[Grotruk]

31 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

That and the Cthulu Cultist vibe was too good to pass up!

Totally agree. I'm  sold

The main issue for me is 2/3 LOC will be unplayable outside this configuration and very "battletome-dependant".

Edited January 19, 2020 by Grotruk
Forgot something

[Sumanye]

I played first 2k guild of summoners game last night and had a blast.  I think guild of summoners actually has the best trio of command trait, artifact, and command ability.  These 3 things are good in basically any list and this coven is a fine choice for any list that isn’t flamer focused, because it doesn’t require you to buy into anything.   You can ignore the fate point generation and you’ll still get a free LoC at some point on accident and still get a trio of powers that are good in any Tzeentch list.

In my game, by turn 3 I had summoned a LoC and 10 pinks (don’t own a second LoC).  I really enjoyed taking Kairos and I really regret not taking the Blue Scribes.  Kairos using spell portal, eating the portal and recasting and then using the portal a second time was great.  Kept a magister near him so he could throw out 2 chaos spawn a turn and let the magister just glimpse the future.  
 

Not saying Guild of Summoners is the best list, but it’s really fun.

[Sumanye]

Guess one more thing I wanted to add.  Most people probably got into Tzeentch because they wanted to obliterate their opponent with magic.  Guild of Summoners rewards you for trying to do that the best!  It’s the Tzeentch army I always wanted!

[Grotruk]

4 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

In my game, by turn 3 I had summoned a LoC and 10 pinks (don’t own a second LoC).  I really enjoyed taking Kairos and I really regret not taking the Blue Scribes.  Kairos using spell portal, eating the portal and recasting and then using the portal a second time was great.  Kept a magister near him so he could throw out 2 chaos spawn a turn and let the magister just glimpse the future.  

Uh ? Maybe i forgot something but you can't summon 10 pinks in Guild of Summoner.

[Sumanye]

1 minute ago, Grotruk said:

Uh ? Maybe i forgot something but you can't summon 10 pinks in Guild of Summoner.

Oh you are right.  Well, I’ve missed a rule every game so far it seems so why stop there.  But, I stand by what I said, really enjoyed it and if I had another LoC I think I would have been happy to summon that instead 

[Grotruk]

1 minute ago, Sumanye said:

Guess one more thing I wanted to add.  Most people probably got into Tzeentch because they wanted to obliterate their opponent with magic.  Guild of Summoners rewards you for trying to do that the best!  It’s the Tzeentch army I always wanted!

Plus, Conflagration and/or changehost will be probably nerfed asap (or not)

[Sumanye]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:29 PM, Gwendar said:

Just to go back to this quickly, I really like that you looked into this.. I never considered Skyfires getting into combat but I've really been thinking of finding 6 of them a home somewhere. I ran the numbers myself and yeah, they really have no need for a Shaman unless you want to counteract Look out, Sir as the +1 to hit only adds 1-2 damage on average.



Obviously buffed Enlightened are definitely doing significantly more, but in practice I find them harder to use and they crumple quite easily.. and the amount of ASF\FL going on in this game... yeah. It worked well in BoC due to sitting behind a cheap Ungor screen, but you still risk being hit by 2" weapons or multicharges ensuring you don't get the buffs by the time you fight.. like I said they can be harder to use.

Skyfires? Throw out some shots, maybe delete a character\bracket a monster and at the very least you have something that can likely handle weakly guarded objectives for 400 points. So yeah.. I'm a fan. The question for me is what Coven do they fit with? I don't plan to run Tzaangors so I've mostly been considering Pyrofane\Summoners.


EDIT: Just out of curiosity, I ran the numbers against 9 Flamers + Exalted (shooting at <10 models, no Aura or RR's) and the combined damage is about 3 less on average for 60 points less. This is assuming you just calculate the Flamer shooting as I don't think you will ever want them in melee unlike Skyfires. Tradeoffs of course being a less versatile unit, less wounds\worse save, lack of mortals and 27" threat range opposed to 40".

What I'm getting at, is that if you want to run a shooting based list, I think the two could actually work quite well together by having the Flamers hit their preferred 10\20+ model targets while the Enlightened plink away at Heroes\Behemoths. But yeah.. could just be for fun. If you plan to do that, you're obviously not running Changehost on top of it unless you fill up your 8 slots with Brims.

Thanks for posting this!  Btw, what is this tool and how do I get it?  I have just been writing matlab scripts for damage analysis, but this looks more useful

Edited January 19, 2020 by Sumanye
Sp

[Xyxel]

@Fredenkvist
Artefact on LoC could maybe be changed (lol) to some MV protection ?

[AverageBoss]

42 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

Oh you are right.  Well, I’ve missed a rule every game so far it seems so why stop there.  But, I stand by what I said, really enjoyed it and if I had another LoC I think I would have been happy to summon that instead 

Take a GS and summon them anyways. XD

[Deadkitten]

1 hour ago, Grotruk said:

Totally agree. I'm  sold

The main issue for me is 2/3 LOC will be unplayable outside this configuration and very "battletome-dependant".

But will look totally cool w Mechanicus converted cultists. 

[Grotruk]

Was thinking about that:

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
Witchfyre Coven (160)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107
 

I wanted to play  with Kairos and an Ogroid and a lot of acolytes (maybe a bad idea since the beginning  but i like these models and the ogroid/kairos combo ;p)

I wanted my acolytes to be anything else than just bodies, so i was tempting by Witchfyre cult and Fatemaster

As my Heroes doesn't really fit with pyrofane Cult artifact, I thought GoS Coven would be better (and Save some Command point with artifact and battleshock immunity)

But, I'm afraid by a lack of bodies and spells, and being too much "30 kairic acolytes dependant"

In fact, I'm also thinking about a "True GoS Coven" without battalion.

What do you think ? (And sorry for my approximative english)

 

 

 

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Grotruk said:

Plus, Conflagration and/or changehost will be probably nerfed asap (or not)

I'd rather see Changehost taken down a bit, that's where the problem lies really. Suggestions range from forced to take minimum units (so you aren't teleporting 9-12 Flamers + Exalted anywhere) or my suggestion which is to give it a roll like the old Seraphon teleport: 4+ you can teleport but less and unit stays put but can still act as normal.. or not move?

44 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

Thanks for posting this!  Btw, what is this tool and how do I get it?  I have just been writing matlab scripts for damage analysis, but this looks more useful

Thanks for making me think about Skyfires 😉 

Here's the tool.. and yeah it's pretty incredible since it can calculate pretty much anything: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/

[Sumanye]

6 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

Was thinking about that:

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
Witchfyre Coven (160)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107
 

I wanted to play  with Kairos and an Ogroid and a lot of acolytes (maybe a bad idea since the beginning  but i like these models and the ogroid/kairos combo ;p)

I wanted my acolytes to be anything else than just bodies, so i was tempting by Witchfyre cult and Fatemaster

As my Heroes doesn't really fit with pyrofane Cult artifact, I thought GoS Coven would be better (and Save some Command point with artifact and battleshock immunity)

But, I'm afraid by a lack of bodies and spells, and being too much "30 kairic acolytes dependant"

In fact, I'm also thinking about a "True GoS Coven" without battalion.

What do you think ? (And sorry for my approximative english)

 

 

 

This looks cool.  I have 4 thoughts.  No Treason of Tzeentch hurts, changeling could be more useful than ogroid, consider aetherquartz broach for 2nd artifact, and see if you can fit spell portal.

[The World Tree]

1 hour ago, Grotruk said:

Was thinking about that:

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
Witchfyre Coven (160)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 107
 

 

 

 

 

Could be wrong but doesn't Witchfyre Coven require Enlightened on foot because it doesn't specify the disc requirement/isn't emboldened? 
 

(I hope I'm wrong - it is an annoying restriction, like most of the arcanite battalions)

[Neffelo]

16 minutes ago, The World Tree said:

Could be wrong but doesn't Witchfyre Coven require Enlightened on foot because it doesn't specify the disc requirement/isn't emboldened? 
 

(I hope I'm wrong - it is an annoying restriction, like most of the arcanite battalions)

Nah, someone earlier in the forum tracked down that you ignore the bottom text for battalions, so you're good. 

[CountryMou3e]

14 minutes ago, The World Tree said:

Could be wrong but doesn't Witchfyre Coven require Enlightened on foot because it doesn't specify the disc requirement/isn't emboldened? 
 

(I hope I'm wrong - it is an annoying restriction, like most of the arcanite battalions)

I thought this initially too but eventually held my hands up on facebook as I was totally wrong. In the core rules it describes warscroll battalions and it states: 

 

[The World Tree]

8 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

I thought this initially too but eventually held my hands up on facebook as I was totally wrong. In the core rules it describes warscroll battalions and it states: 

Thank you, my new favourite poster.

[Grotruk]

2 hours ago, Sumanye said:

This looks cool.  I have 4 thoughts.  No Treason of Tzeentch hurts, changeling could be more useful than ogroid, consider aetherquartz broach for 2nd artifact, and see if you can fit spell portal.

Ty ! I could replace Ogroid with Changeling (But my heart is bleeding a bit), giving him treason of tzeentch.

I would have 100 pts to spend. So i could fit the Spellportal and another (whatever ?) endless spell !

I think the Gaunt needs Wellspring of Arcane might because arcane suggestion is 8+ to succes, or i'll have to change (lol) his spell.

[SoulBlightDryad]

7 hours ago, Neffelo said:

Again though, to even get the fate points required you already have a very heavy spellcasting army. you are already going to have at least nine casts and unbinds, usually more since you can fail or have them unbinded to even generate the fate points needed to summon them consistently.  When you are adding 2-4 more spellcasts/unbindings (Even if they are higher quality) in a list that is already likely generating 11-12 consistently you are just reaching a point where the LoC are not adding near as much value to the army.

It also seems much more difficult to bring a battalion, which is a bit of a downside. We have so many powerful artifacts locked behind one. 

As for realm spells,  a lot of tournaments and places still don't allow them, for whatever reason. This unfortunately something that varies significantly from area to area, so you can't count on that until it becomes standard. 

 

MOST tournaments do include realm spells, including all the largest ones. Maybe just in your local scene they don't include them, but as time goes, it is rare to not have them (or at least some of them).