AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Gwendar]

12 hours ago, mmimzie said:

The bridge though too can be used to Port units about and isn't as limited. With an LoC you can undispel it with impunity.

Only concern is getting the wizard in range to cast the spell. 

I thought about it a bit more overnight.. and I mean I definitely rate it for certain situations, for sure. For my particular Changehost list.. I'm not sure, but I think combining it with Aura and Fatemaster on 12 Flamers +1 Exalted would be pretty nice.. again though I'm losing out on CP for a bit of damage gain and I don't know how worth it would be as I might need that for a clutch IP.

However I think I can totally see myself bringing it in a caster heavy setup or in a Skyfire\Enlightened heavy setup.. Bridge hasn't seen as much use in my Skaven setup anymore with the Fiend unit size nerf so.. it's just kind of sitting around not being used 😅

[millies1919]

10 hours ago, Hebroseph said:

This is true, you want to run atleast one max unit to maximize the battalion benefit. You can use the other 10 man squads to screen for the big block if you want lol. 

so then maybe do 30, 20, 10 for my 60 acolytes

[Nizrah]

2 minutes ago, millies1919 said:

so then maybe do 30, 20, 10 for my 60 acolytes

It will be wise by math but also easier to your enemy to reduce danger

[BillyOcean]

Question: Because the Lord of Change's Spell-eater ability allows him to dispel an endless spell "during the hero phase",  does this mean he can do it at any point during the phase, and therefore dispel a spell that was cast in the same turn? This would be quite powerful, allowing us to use some of the riskier spells without putting ourselves in danger. Or, does this ability implicitly have to follow the "beginning of the hero phase" timing for dispelling, even though its not explicitly stated in the ability?

Thoughts appreciated. Seems like it might be worth submitting as a FAQ question.

[Gwendar]

12 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

Question: Because the Lord of Change's Spell-eater ability allows him to dispel an endless spell "during the hero phase",  does this mean he can do it at any point during the phase, and therefore dispel a spell that was cast in the same turn? This would be quite powerful, allowing us to use some of the riskier spells without putting ourselves in danger. Or, does this ability implicitly have to follow the "beginning of the hero phase" timing for dispelling, even though its not explicitly stated in the ability?

Thoughts appreciated. Seems like it might be worth submitting as a FAQ question.

I believe it's at any point.. so yeah, something could be cast and immediately dispelled (which Longbeards can also do per their wording, as an example). Because it isn't explicitly written that it happens "at the start" then.. yeah, should be fine. A great example of a spell this works well with is the Daemonfire StD spell as described by others; throw it out for max damage (more per wizard in range) and then dispel it so it doesn't come back on you.

Whether or not this will be FAQ'd and changed is a different story but I feel it's intended as the Longbeards also can do it, like I said.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Gwendar

[GeneralZero]

I have to build my LoC: so, which one kairos or LoC ? (my actual army is most likely tzaangoors heavy : 60 tz, 27 enligh/skyf, 1 shaman, and few other stuff)

Edited January 7, 2020 by GeneralZero

[Grimrock]

23 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

I have to build my LoC: so, which one kairos or LoC ? (my actual army is most likely tzaangoors heavy : 60 tz, 27 enligh/skyf, 1 shaman, and few other stuff)

I think if you're not going to use the LoC's command ability then Kairos is probably the better choice. The extra cast, access to spells from nearby models (like the thamaturge healing spell) and the more consistent spell all make him pretty solid. He's even slightly better in combat if something goes terribly wrong.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Grimrock

[Sinfullyvannila]

41 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

  does this mean he can do it at any point during the phase, and therefore dispel a spell that was cast in the same turn?

I’m pretty sure this is intended. LoC’s got a pretty substantial nerf from Beacon of Sorcery requiring units be “wholly within” without increasing its range.

[The_Dudemeister]

1 hour ago, BillyOcean said:

Question: Because the Lord of Change's Spell-eater ability allows him to dispel an endless spell "during the hero phase",  does this mean he can do it at any point during the phase, and therefore dispel a spell that was cast in the same turn?

Unfortunately not. See the Designer's Commentary for Nighthaunt

Quote

Q: I have a question regarding the Myrmourn Banshees ability ‘Spell-eaters’ and its interaction with endless spells, specifically the part of the rule which reads: “Once in each of your hero phases, if this unit is within 6" of an endless spell, this unit can attempt to dispel the endless spell in the same manner as a Wizard.” Can this ability be used at any time during the hero phase?

A: No, it must be used at the start of the hero phase (as Wizards can only attempt to dispel at the start of the hero phase).

 

[LordPrometheus]

So nobody has really said much about the Tzeentch Endless Spells. They seem pretty decent to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

[AverageBoss]

Just now, LordPrometheus said:

So nobody has really said much about the Tzeentch Endless Spells. They seem pretty decent to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

We have better options through the StD and BoC endless spells sadly.

[BillyOcean]

2 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Unfortunately not. See the Designer's Commentary for Nighthaunt

 

Thanks! Seems like one of those clarifications that needs to be moved to the general FAQ now that there are multiple things with that ability.

[LordPrometheus]

Just now, AverageBoss said:

We have better options through the StD and BoC endless spells sadly.

That's disappointing, because they look really cool. I think the Sigil with its random effects is very thematic.

Also, what are people's thoughts on Demon Princes in Tzeentch? He seems like a good beatstick with a really good save, and he can buff the Gaunt Summoners.

 

[GeneralZero]

21 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

We have better options through the StD and BoC endless spells sadly.

What do we need in the army list to be able to play them (in addition to their cost of course)?

[willange]

1 minute ago, GeneralZero said:

What do we need in the army list to be able to play them (in addition to their cost of course)?

They just have to be cast by wizards of their respective factions.  So for example a Tzaangor Shaman can cast the BoC endless spells (as well as a great-bray shaman if you run the Tzeentch BoC battalion), and a tzeentch marked chaos sorcerer lord can cast StD endless spells.  Remember as well that you don't have to "ally in" the endless spells.  Any faction can take them in a list, but only certain types of wizards can cast them.

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

What do we need in the army list to be able to play them (in addition to their cost of course)?

wizards with the right keywords. Gaut summoner on disc and the sorc lords can cast the StD varients.  Tzaangor shaman on disc can do the BoC varients. 

[GeneralZero]

Wow thx, good to know as I have them already. (StD & tzaangors shaman shaman).

I think that I'll assemble the kairos version of the LoC, more fighter and a bit more efficient in my tzaangor army. And maybe I'll be able to summon the LoC later on. It is not so difficult to get 9 spells in turn 2.  Will the summoned LoC be able to cast (and then move/ fight ) immediatly? 

[BillyOcean]

Just now, GeneralZero said:

Wow thx, good to know as I have them already. (StD & tzaangors shaman shaman).

I think that I'll assemble the kairos version of the LoC, more fighter and a bit more efficient in my tzaangor army. And maybe I'll be able to summon the LoC later on. It is not so difficult to get 9 spells in turn 2.  Will the summoned LoC be able to cast (and then move/ fight ) immediatly? 

Summoning is end of move phase, so he will be waiting to turn 3 to cast and move. Your best chance is that you go second, your opponent gets a couple of spells, and you can push the remainder of the 9 in your turn. If we have to wait for turn 3 for LoC to act, I feel like Guild of Summoners is relatively weak.

[GeneralZero]

10 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

Guild of Summoners

This is indeed not really super powerfull. And for other guilds, 30 spells is really too hight. You have to aim to 20 (or less) for the pinks horrors which is usually around tunr 3 in heavy magic lists and fights... For me it is clear: I'm not counting on those Fate points at all.

[BillyOcean]

Yeah, I'll likely only be summoning screamers or blues to help with objective play. Occasionally an exalted flamer if someone really needs to get shot.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

So nobody has really said much about the Tzeentch Endless Spells. They seem pretty decent to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

I’ll give them a try when they come out. I think we were all expecting better.

Taurus and in certain lists, the Dirghorn(BoC); Darkfire Daemonrift and probably the Rupture are better options than what we get in it, however:

Simulacrum is basically a second Gaunt Summoner warscroll spell that can backfire on you. I dunno. The Purple Sun is really popular in our lists and I see the same problems with it, and it’s only more useful against Elite armies. If we use it we’ll though it should our damage pretty much anything other than a well placed Daemonrift.

The Tome I think is pretty good if you don’t want to deal with Blue Scribes. There are other sources of reroll casts, but reroll casts is REALLY good. At I think that we’re collectively underselling auto cast and unbind immunity on Snakeeyes. I think that now people in the know about Horrors are going to make a point to focus down the Pinks until we lose our Icon Bearer, diminishing the value of 1s on Battleshock for that.

Lots of people are dismissing the Sigil on first look, because its results are unpredictable and possibly can hurt us. But the timing of it is actually really easy to mitigate poor results.

 

Some things to note about the spells with drawbacks.

1) A LoC can just eat it

2) We still can attempt to dispel them with Pinks and Acolytes when they are wizards.

[LordPrometheus]

9 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I’ll give them a try when they come out. I think we were all expecting better.

Taurus and in certain lists, the Dirghorn(BoC); Darkfire Daemonrift and probably the Rupture are better options than what we get in it, however:

Simulacrum is basically a second Gaunt Summoner warscroll spell that can backfire on you. I dunno. The Purple Sun is really popular in our lists and I see the same problems with it, and it’s only more useful against Elite armies. If we use it we’ll though it should our damage pretty much anything other than a well placed Daemonrift.

The Tome I think is pretty good if you don’t want to deal with Blue Scribes. There are other sources of reroll casts, but reroll casts is REALLY good. At I think that we’re collectively underselling auto cast and unbind immunity on Snakeeyes. I think that now people in the know about Horrors are going to make a point to focus down the Pinks until we lose our Icon Bearer, diminishing the value of 1s on Battleshock for that.

Lots of people are dismissing the Sigil on first look, because its results are unpredictable and possibly can hurt us. But the timing of it is actually really easy to mitigate poor results.

 

Some things to note about the spells with drawbacks.

1) A LoC can just eat it

2) We still can attempt to dispel them with Pinks and Acolytes when they are wizards.

I'm pretty high on the Tome, actually. I think it's better and cheaper than Blue Scribes. I will be testing that one for sure.

[mmimzie]

30 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

This is indeed not really super powerfull. And for other guilds, 30 spells is really too hight. You have to aim to 20 (or less) for the pinks horrors which is usually around tunr 3 in heavy magic lists and fights... For me it is clear: I'm not counting on those Fate points at all.

 

27 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

Yeah, I'll likely only be summoning screamers or blues to help with objective play. Occasionally an exalted flamer if someone really needs to get shot.

I think it's strong enough the ignore battleshock artifact is quite nice and the bonus CP artifact is also great. SO it's a 4+ every turn more +1 to cast for daemons within 12, and your pink horrors are less afraid of thier biggest weakness.  Right now just rolled my 9 destiny dice just to see and only got a single 1, and heck no 6s v.v what sad day.   So that battleshock immunity can really matter in saving you cp which is more +1 to cast. 

Outside of that it's the only place to make summoning worth something.  9 spells you get a LoC, he's abit chubby with 14 wounds on a 4+ its about 28 effective vs the blue horrors 24 effective wounds. The damage out put is quite abit higher than the blue horrors as well as the blues won't be in units of 20 and what be casting the +1 to hit buff on themselves they will only do a wound or 2 to a unit with a 4+ save.  The LoC also brings his own -1 to hit aura for melee making him that much tankier. You'll get more out of a lord of change in that department. Where the blues are obviously better is they count as more models if they can get in range of a poorly defended objective. 

So it makes your summoning a little faster as the first is on 9 meaning one less spell than our standard lowest, and more impactful as it gives you a more powerful piece for cheap. 

 

14 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I’ll give them a try when they come out. I think we were all expecting better.

Taurus and in certain lists, the Dirghorn(BoC); Darkfire Daemonrift and probably the Rupture are better options than what we get in it, however:

Simulacrum is basically a second Gaunt Summoner warscroll spell that can backfire on you. I dunno. The Purple Sun is really popular in our lists and I see the same problems with it, and it’s only more useful against Elite armies. If we use it we’ll though it should our damage pretty much anything other than a well placed Daemonrift.

The Tome I think is pretty good if you don’t want to deal with Blue Scribes. There are other sources of reroll casts, but reroll casts is REALLY good. At I think that we’re collectively underselling auto cast and unbind immunity on Snakeeyes. I think that now people in the know about Horrors are going to make a point to focus down the Pinks until we lose our Icon Bearer, diminishing the value of 1s on Battleshock for that.

Lots of people are dismissing the Sigil on first look, because its results are unpredictable and possibly can hurt us. But the timing of it is actually really easy to mitigate poor results.

 

Some things to note about the spells with drawbacks.

1) A LoC can just eat it

2) We still can attempt to dispel them with Pinks and Acolytes when they are wizards.

I think if you are running change host a lot of the endless spell options change abit as stuff like pendulum and purple sun coming out at the top of turn 1 running through large swofts of an opponents army is quite impactful. 

[DarrinTheOccult]

Am I the only one upset about the constant equipment changing in Tzaangors warscroll?  First you had to assemble some with shields and some with pair blades for max efficiency; next you only needed one shield so you had to remove shields; and now you may only use one of the two options for the whole unit. You cannot mix anymore 😵

[mmimzie]

1 minute ago, DarrinTheOccult said:

Am I the only one upset about the constant equipment changing in Tzaangors warscroll?  First you had to assemble some with shields and some with pair blades for max efficiency; next you only needed one shield so you had to remove shields; and now you may only use one of the two options for the whole unit. You cannot mix anymore 😵

it's the cost of progress

but think you get to roll play change every time they come out with a new book and change your models. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by mmimzie