AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Ravinsild]

3 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

Tyrants of blood is real good.  Only 3 games in but undefeated so far.  I'm going to keep singing the praises of reapers of vengeance over bloodlords until the day I die.  Take the blood hungerer relic and on a 4+ you get that sweet sweet attack first bonus you wanted from bloodlords anyway.

Personally I am a little less sold on the always fight first thing because you can get around that on your turn with good use of the unfettered fury or exalted thirster 6" pile in, and on their turn you only ever have to suffer one unit anyhow.  As a result, I may use the one free CP per turn relic on the exalted thirster since he almost always uses his command ability.

Let me explain the combo.

1) You're too far away to reliably charge, or you're stuck in a combat you don't want to be, or there is a unit like loonsmasha fanatics that always fights first, and you're a scrub who took reapers of vengeance instead of bloodlords.

1a) Cast +1 to hit from your slaughterpriest for extra silliness

2) You decide you might as well fall back, advance, stand on your head, and do anything that would normally forbid a charge move, ending your move more than 3" away but less than 6" away from the fanatics (or whatever other unit of your choosing that thinks its sneaky.  My personal favorite fantasy is that stupid gristlegore general)

3) Don't charge (you can't for like 3 reasons, remember?)

4) At the start of the combat phase, courteously allow your opponent to activate any units he has that are in combat that can attack first (like the fanatics).  This is an unecessary step, but it's good to remember that this is a gentleman's game and you're about to do ungodly things to whatever that unit is, so give it some dignity on its way out

4a) Curse yourself if you forgot not to charge his fanatics with some other unit

5) Otherwise, then use your rejoice in exalted slaughter command ability on the big guy (or rejoice in the normal slaughter command ability on the unfettered fury thirster)

6) Whenever you feel like it in the combat phase, pile in and fight.  You can flexibly go last since you're obviously not going to get attacked from a unit farther than 3" away from you, or you can go first and start the domino there if you need/want to.

6a) Do the thing that bloodlords can't do and fight a second time, piling in a futher 6". (Let me tell you being able to hit something that you're 8" away from before you start your pile is pretty unexpected sometimes.  Let alone if you do it twice and hit something like 16" away after *not* charging.)

6b) Do this with as many other bloodthirsters as you have command points (so usually 2/4/6/8 total activations unless you just don't need to waste the CP up front (but usually you want to ) )

7) Allow your opponent to activate his first unit

 

 

TLDR: Tyrants of blood is amazing.  IMO better than Bloodlords.

 

Fall back and "charge" is borderline OP when 3-4 thirsters can all do it for 1 CP.  Take an exalted thirster or an unfettered fury thirster (or both) in every list.  Full stop.

I will try it out once I get my 3rd Bloodthirster. I have SKARBRAND and an Insensate Rage at the moment I can't wait to field 3 Thirsters though. What about the rest of your army? Just reavers for objective camping? 

[Easytyger]

32 minutes ago, AresX8 said:

The only answer to this is do the following:

- Forget about all of the tactics and interactions the previous book had. They are gone.
- Write lists to try things out and most importantly, PLAY. You can theoryhammer all you want but none of it matters without actual results that only playing can provide. Sitting on the sidelines asking what the "best things are" when the book is only 3 days old contributes nothing to the overall discussion as the rest of us are figuring things out.

I know this is blunt but it has to be said. It's starting to get pretty obvious for those that have played with the new book, and those who have not.

Agreed. You need to play a lot of games to figure things out because there are so many changes.  Saying it’s all going to be the same is unsubstantiated opinion. 

[Easytyger]

17 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

TLDR: Tyrants of blood is amazing.  IMO better than Bloodlords.

*Reapers of Vengeance 😉

[andysonic1]

I played a game Sunday with my Gore Pilgrims + Dark Feast idea. I was against Ogors, which is something like the list below (never played against them before so I'm not sure). I made a number of mistakes that lost me the game very quickly:

1. I did not cast my judgements turn one because they would have been out of range. This was stupid because they can be used to block movement while the axe also causes enemies within 3 inches to have -1 to hit, increasing it's threat range. I should have attempted to cast all my judgements and use them to create a funnel. This would be important because...

2. I have 40 Bloodreavers that I charged headfirst into the enemy line, which was very stupid. He had his "chaff" Ogors in front of his stronger Ironguts (or whatever the much stronger unit is with 2" weapons). It isn't the fact that I charged that was stupid, it was the fact that I spread my Bloodreavers out along his line in an attempt to get as many into combat as possible. Granted, I killed six Ogors, but the backswing from them and the unit behind them killed the entire unit of Bloodreavers. A better strategy would have been to get ONE Bloodreaver in contact (combat) with both lines, then create a conga line through my funnel of Judgements. This would have completely negated his two line strategy while keeping his chaff + hammer units in combat for at least turn one if not turn two, allowing my Priests to boil their blood, launch Judgements, and buff Blood Warriors who would move in to clean up.

3. I needed to keep my Bloodsecrator and one Priest close to the Dark Feast 40 Bloodreavers so they could hit 4 attacks per model. I did this successfully, however when the Bloodreavers died the heroes were completely exposed and quickly died as well. The conga line idea would keep them safe behind a large amount of the unit and I wouldn't need to get too crazy with movement or wholly within during combat.

4. My Mighty Lord with a Gorecleaver whiffed all his attacks. I'll be replacing him with Khul, use him as the general, and free up an artifact slot for someone else.

I've concluded that 40 Bloodreavers buffed with Prayers and Dark Feast are very killy and can clear out a chaff unit quickly, but they aren't Blood Warriors and will die if there is a backswing. The 30 Blood Warriors with 3 Goreglaives idea would have most likely eviscerated the Ogor chaff and survived the backswing, however I have neither 30 Blood Warriors nor 3 Goreglaives so that's not possible for me. My funnel idea using the Bloodreavers seems solid on paper, and I will be trying it out in a few weeks when I'm able to get back out to the game store.

[Easytyger]

Does anyone know what the base size for an Exalted Bloodthirster is? Can’t seem to find it.

[Luke1705]

8 minutes ago, Easytyger said:

Does anyone know what the base size for an Exalted Bloodthirster is? Can’t seem to find it.

160mm

[Luke1705]

53 minutes ago, Easytyger said:

*Reapers of Vengeance 😉

Words are hard. Thanks for the catch

[kahadin]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

Definitely think the wrathmonger battalion has chops, and it highlights what I think is really interesting about the book. In the last edition we usually wrote to try to get an alpha strike just like every other army. Buff bloodletters to the nines, run and charge, and wipe out everything they touch. However, since our speed is so limited now I think we might have to try something that's super weird for AOS: build a list that intentionally wants to receive an alpha strike and then punishes the opponent for it. It manages our limited ranges because everyone just bricks up and waits for the opponent to make a move, and deals with speed issues because the opponent has to come to us as long as we can control some objectives early. We have cheap but effective chaff to bubble wrap everything, and more than enough damage after that. 

This is how I liked to play mortals before. I mainly used skullcrushers to receive charges or control enemy movement. I also used blood warriors to receive the alpha strike and slow it down. 

Much of the book is improved for me in this regard and I'm not complaining about it. The gorefists alone are a big bonus for me. My main worry is that my hammer previously were skullreapers with +1 hit or save. I don't feel like they can do it anymore.

I absolutely think reapers are better unbuffed now then they were previously. Unbuffed they tend to get more mws and damage, but they don't benefit as much from buffs as the old ones. The old ones were pretty over the top imo if you handled them right. 

For me personally I feel like there is not really a bb hammer in the mortals. If anyone finds it let me know. I don't have any bloodthirsters right now and don't relish buying or painting them. 

 

[Luke1705]

1 hour ago, Ravinsild said:

I will try it out once I get my 3rd Bloodthirster. I have SKARBRAND and an Insensate Rage at the moment I can't wait to field 3 Thirsters though. What about the rest of your army? Just reavers for objective camping? 

Yeah I mean it turns out once you have 1440 points invested into 3-4 models and the battalion, plus needing 100-150 more for command points.....you don’t have a whole ton left. I ran:

Exalted Thirster (blood hungerer)

Skarbrand

Wrath Thirster (general)

Tyrants

2x Slaughterpriests

3x10 Reavers

and that was 1850. Love getting the triumph each game since it’s per phase, not for a single wound or save roll. But mostly it’s all about that CP, which is why I will try swapping the relic on the exalted thirster to the crimson crown to get some more CP.

Alternatively considering some serious heresy to perhaps get cogs in the list, but would require losing a slaughterpriest, a CP, and trading the wrath down to a fury thirster.

May be worth it though. I just really like the second priest. Grabbing an extra blood tithe point every hero phase and having a second blood boil is no joke

Edited March 25, 2019 by Luke1705

[kahadin]

Bray shamans are the same points as a priest and have something like bloodbind. He could throw down some cogs with minimal ajustments

[jazman84]

8 hours ago, Kaz said:

Unfortunately, that was actually true for our old battletome my dude. Hopefully this new one brings us more opportunities to build skull mountains for Khorne. 

This book is still pretty young. Let’s give it Time!

on a different note, how do you guys use your Agrax Earthshade for your blood Warriors? I feel like one of my lads look strangely shiny after I applied a load of Agrax.

also am I supposed to spam Agrax or put thin coats?

im trying to get a muddy dirty dulled down effect for my blood hungry Berserkers, and it’s proving difficult

It was aimed towards the transition from fluff to tabletop. We are less of a murderous close combat army and more of a casting/anticasting one now. 

[Bjornas]

1 hour ago, kahadin said:

This is how I liked to play mortals before. I mainly used skullcrushers to receive charges or control enemy movement. I also used blood warriors to receive the alpha strike and slow it down. 

Much of the book is improved for me in this regard and I'm not complaining about it. The gorefists alone are a big bonus for me. My main worry is that my hammer previously were skullreapers with +1 hit or save. I don't feel like they can do it anymore.

I absolutely think reapers are better unbuffed now then they were previously. Unbuffed they tend to get more mws and damage, but they don't benefit as much from buffs as the old ones. The old ones were pretty over the top imo if you handled them right. 

For me personally I feel like there is not really a bb hammer in the mortals. If anyone finds it let me know. I don't have any bloodthirsters right now and don't relish buying or painting them. 

 

I also played them like this with the previous book and will do so now as well. I also feel my army has gotten stronger in general (after one game). While not fast, atleast we can move outside of an 18" bubble now and we have gotten good magic defense. I think the Slaughterborn batallion will be great for this playstyle.

I'll be using the Skullcrushers as a countercharge unit, together with my Juggerlord. I'll also be keeping the Ex. Deathbringer nearby, behind a Battleline unit and poke the enemy with his spear (using the Skullfiend Tribe you can get him up to 10 attacks).

[Battlefury]

1 hour ago, kahadin said:

For me personally I feel like there is not really a bb hammer in the mortals. If anyone finds it let me know. I don't have any bloodthirsters right now and don't relish buying or painting them. 

 

Due to non demonic units I really only see some choices here:

Use the Skullcrushers in minimum group size and minimum 2 groups there. Then charge / return -> charge / return -> repeat over and over again until the enemy is so decimated, when he reaches combat, that you can take him out with the Blood Warriors, Skullreapers and even buffed Blood Reavers ( their rend is golden there ).

The amnner to actualy do that would be: you charge an enemy with the SKullcrushers and deal your MW, then you fight and let him fight back. With their 3+ save, they should be reliable enough to handle it to an extend.
Next movement phase retreat that group and charge in the other one, deal MW again. Repeat as often, as you think it needs to be.

I think the game should be played like, you catch the enemy, before it's troops reach your Infantery.
Your priests could additionally dish out MW to those caught groups.

It would technically be important to use minimum Infantery group size, so you can bubble wrap the enemy always and he has to split his A to your groups. Does have the down point, that units might be obliterated pretty fast. Therefore decimate them as good as psooible before, and the Alpha Strike the enemie's group.

[kahadin]

That's a good poi t about skullcrushers. I better re-evaluate them. On the charge they should be rocking. I already gave some and a Jug Lord so that would be easy to try. 

Also anyone feel like wrathmongers just replaced the bloodsecrator? If I only cared about 1a I feel like Id rather take the mongers now instead of the Totem.

 

[fwlr]

So it seems people are very on the fence about which slaughterhost is better for daemons.

What are people thinking? (In terms of thirster heavy lists)

Reapers of vengeance: worse all round trait in most situations imo (add d3 to models that flee), relic&cmd trait are ok to to decent depending on the list (unbind & ignore spell effects), but there is access to these abilities plenty in the book that isn't mandatorialy taking up the precious artifact and command slots. But, the command ability is just AMAZING- fight twice. Nuff said really. Doubles damage output of multiple units- imagine angry skarbrand with extra attacks fighting twice, that's 20 3 dmg attacks as well as an average of 40(!) Mortal wounds. Depends on CP available which could be a problem, especially in a thirster heavy list.

Bloodlords: I think it's an overall better trait, rerolling wounds is hard to come by in this book, and especially useful against the things it is against, monsters and hero's. Command trait +4 move. Just simply better whatever it gets put on. Personally a secrator with banner sounds like a good choice, keeping up with the fast thirsters. Halo of blood lets you fight first ALWAYS, not just your turn- good, very good, better than the reapers one, but not necessarily paramount. Command trait- heal shenanigans. Decent, but pales in comparison to reapers.

 

Probably depends on the exact list being run. Will need testing.

Thoughts?

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by fwlr

[Xasz]

3 minutes ago, fwlr said:

So it seems people are very on the fence about which battalion is better for daemons

I think you mean Slaughter Hosts.

Considering the Tyrants of Blood setup it's currently one person advocating Reapers and seemingly the rest favouring Blood Lords. Make out of that whatever you want.

Personally, I am certain Blood Lords is better (at least for my play-style) but if Reapers works for you or anyone, more power to them.

On another note, I really like Chaos Lord on Manticore setup posted here. He seems a bit class-cannony but he should be a nice hammer on an ok base-size.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Xasz

[fwlr]

Cheers, edited.

You make a point about how it's one person advocating the reapers, but considering their points they seem just as valid. Seeing what everyone thinks.

[Mikeymajq]

43 minutes ago, Battlefury said:

Due to non demonic units I really only see some choices here:

Use the Skullcrushers in minimum group size and minimum 2 groups there. Then charge / return -> charge / return -> repeat over and over again until the enemy is so decimated, when he reaches combat, that you can take him out with the Blood Warriors, Skullreapers and even buffed Blood Reavers ( their rend is golden there ).

The amnner to actualy do that would be: you charge an enemy with the SKullcrushers and deal your MW, then you fight and let him fight back. With their 3+ save, they should be reliable enough to handle it to an extend.
Next movement phase retreat that group and charge in the other one, deal MW again. Repeat as often, as you think it needs to be.

I think the game should be played like, you catch the enemy, before it's troops reach your Infantery.
Your priests could additionally dish out MW to those caught groups.

It would technically be important to use minimum Infantery group size, so you can bubble wrap the enemy always and he has to split his A to your groups. Does have the down point, that units might be obliterated pretty fast. Therefore decimate them as good as psooible before, and the Alpha Strike the enemie's group.

I love that it makes them function like "realistic" shock cavalry!  

 

On the whole Bloodlords vs Reapers I'd just like to chime in and say I think they're both great. If you're facing lots of deadly wizardry the Reapers have some really nice counters to that and I prefer their command ability, but Lords have a reaaally juicy command trait and artefact that works no matter what. tl;dr I think you pick one based on what you want to do and you can't really go wrong with either.

On the Mortal side however I think I much prefer Goretide and the other is pretty much only meant for running Korgoraths (in plural). 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Mikeymajq

[kahadin]

I'm still on the fence about skullcrushers. If they are in units of three they do very little. Units of 6 are unwealdy. I've had them o. The table before and I feel like they are generally too big to actually get all six into contact most of the time. 

I'll still try it as I have everything on hand.

[Grimrock]

2 hours ago, kahadin said:

For me personally I feel like there is not really a bb hammer in the mortals. If anyone finds it let me know. I don't have any bloodthirsters right now and don't relish buying or painting them. 

 

I think there are a few, but nothing as good as skullreapers were unfortunately. Just some ideas:

1. Wrathmongers on the charge with +1 attack, +1 to hit and reroll wounds puts out about 20 rend 1 wounds. That's not mortals, but it's still pretty good. If you double tap with the battalion most things should die. If you take skarre and the 'mongers die then you get to attack once more before dishing out around 7 mortal wounds. Honestly wrathmongers are just bonkers.

2. 10 blood reavers with buffs under dark feast do about the same as a buffed wrathmonger unit, but just one round of combat. More models would do more damage, but it would make buffs trickier to apply.

3. 3 slaughterpriests, a wrath axe, and icon. On average you should be able to put out something like 10-15 mortal wounds, which should kill or cripple most monsters. Won't kill a big unit, but that's what the wrathmongers are for. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Grimrock

[Battlefury]

Small units give you kind of more map control. And the enemy has to decide where to approach your units. That will make him go crazy, if you have A LOT of small units, as he / she would not know where to start.

That would slit his forces, and you will find gaps to actually push in.

It's like a tactic, that the finnish army used against the russian in the winter war. They called it "Motti". They basically pushed into the enemie's divisions, to split them up. And then they fought against those small parts of the big divisions. That gave them advantage, as they where more in number in realation to the small division parts.
Same could be done here.

Roll in ( Cavalry ), split them up by mancount ( small groups ) and get into the gaps to pick out core models.

[Mikeymajq]

I've yet to build mine, but I own 6 bloodcrushers so I'm looking forward to using them. What weapon option are you running?

Heck you don't need to get all 6 in, even if only half of them connect that's likely 3d3 mortal wounds before combat. 

I've been using Chaos Knights for awhile and they operate in similar fashion except for not doing any damage on the charge, their weapons get pretty crazy instead. But they're totally useless in prolonged combat so retreating them back into safety is always smart if you don't feel like you can finish off the unit, or if you know the knights will get charged if they stay. Buff 'em, send them in and they'll punch a hole. A retreat and charge ability in BoK would be so damn nasty for both Knights and Juggernaut-riders alike. 

EDIT: oh and always always screen units that need to charge to be effective, and unleash them when you've buffed them up and have a target. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Mikeymajq

[Battlefury]

I'd really go with those Bloodglaives. The rend of 1 is gold for melee, although they have only 3A. But better than just hitting better, but no rend is not that good tbh.

I really would not use them as main battle unit. They're sitting ducks once in melee and will just break apart pretty fast.
So you wanna get into melee with them just temporarily. Choose other units to take their place.

I see Skullcrusher absolutely good by just charging units you want to have in place, or to prevent some units from flanking. Of course that potential is limited, as models might be vanished in melee. But until that I really see them as kind of top 3 charge cavalery in the game.

Could also be very funny to play those in combination with Marauder Horsemen, as you technically throw the javelins to the enemy, then charge with the Skullcrushers and let them sit there. Decimate the enemy and let it rain those javelins as long as it pleases you.

Other approach would be:

Rain Javelins
Charge Crushers
Take Skullreapers into melee, once the enemy is in place / or buffed Reavers / or Blood Warriors ( whatever you concider potentialy ).

There is clearly no need for the stampede battalion. Only if you wanna really have that artefact, but I really think it is better to take another unit for the point cost of the battalion.

This approach is pretty grindy and has to be planned well due to positioning and timing. Always keep an eye to your enemies action and adapt, when it is needed to the situation.

[ledha]

I played a 2K game against a stormcast army

anvils of the heldenhammer, 2 castellant, 1 heraldor, 2x20 sequitors, 10 evocators, 5 evocators and 3x5 liberators

i have 2 slaughterpriest, one exalted and aspiring deathbringer, one bloodsecrator, 2x10 bloodwarriors, 2x10 bloodreavers, 3x5 skullreapers, 5 wrathmongers and the axe + skulls judgments. Slaughterborn bataillion, goretide slaughterhost.

Ended up winning 22-20 with both army nearly tabled. My observations :

- Bloodreavers are still 100% ******. Only worth to die and give a blood tithe

- Wrathmongers are hilariously undercosted. Compare them to namarti thralls, which the wrathmongers beat both in defense, offense and support as well as ease of use.

- Skullreapers with reroll hits are very cool. You can fish for the 6 to hit to do mortal wounds against units which tank too well (you can reroll even suceeded rolls, and nothing force you to reroll all of them), and they don't need as many buffs as before (just a +1 to hit is enough). But they won't be as "over the top" as they could before, too. Still, they wrecked the sequitors.

- Bloodwarriors are here to die and maybe do some damages. Meh.

- The axe jugment is insane. I used her as well as the skulls to blocks entire area of the battlefield, and the -1 to hit to units within 3" completely destroyed sequitors's offense. And all those mortal wounds !

- So many wolly within areas make it hard to buff the whole army, except if everyone is near each other.

- Slaughterborn is incredible. Ignore rend-1, along the -1 to hit from the axe, allowed my army to trade blows with 40 sequitors backed up by castellans and actually beat them.

- rerolling 1 to wound while being around an objective is awesome, especially when all the hard-hitting units (skullreapers/wrathmongers) wound on 3+.

- Blood tithe system is still as bad as before. My only way to summon a bloodthirster (in turn 4) was to not use my entire allegiance ability during the whole game. I'm still baffled by that. Meanwhile, nurgle can use its wheel freely and summon without problem, tzeentch can still change dices, seraphon can teleport their units while summoning... very very bad system (plus good luck to have blood tithe points when your opponent units are blocks of 20 sequitors hahaha)

- The rerolls from the altar are precious. I still lost both of my slaughterpriest with auto inflicted mortal wounds, because i'm that bad.

- The bloodsecrator as a general and with banner of wrath is deceptively powerful. with the wrathmongers around, he had 6 attacks 3+ rr1/3+ rr1/-1/2. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by ledha

[Luke1705]

Two qualifiers I’ll add about reapers vs Bloodlords:

1) the d3 battleshock ability is made more situational by the range; however the Bloodlords ability is situational in who it targets. Good when it applies but not worth writing home about.

2) Bloodlords get more stuff because they don’t need to set aside so much CP for extra activations, and they can also take the blood hungerer relic 

Bears more testing but double pile ins are just so good it’s hard to give that up.