Mercenary Stormcast?

[eekamouse]

If you take a look at the latest episode of the Stormcast podcast (episode 6), starting at about the eleven minute mark, Phil Kelly talks a bit about the reforging process and how a constantly reforged Stormcast is gradually "diminished". 

The way he describes it in the context of Nagash wanting new souls had me thinking this was another hint towards Deathcast... at first. But, as he went on he talked about how the moral compass of a Stormcast becomes more and more black and white, and rigid. I could definitely see a split of some Stormcast with Sigmar, but not on any kind of large scale swing akin to the Heresy. Rather, I could see pockets of deluded Stormcast throwing their weight behind any of the factions including Destruction, Chaos, and Death. 

I don't think many people would like it, but I'd love to see a massively deluded Stormcast unit start to worship Gork/Mork.

Link to episode: 

 

[Melcavuk]

I can see this becoming less likely with every reforging not more, to my mind the black and white begins to highlight Order not Good as their focus.

Early stages:
Thief steals an apple, gets caught, reprimanded.

Late Stages:
Thief steals an apple, doing so might weaken Azyr (Less rations, public distress, wasted guard time), thief must be executed for treason.

They will be single minded, tunnel visioned in the mission, shades of grey begin to disappear and there is only the will of Sigmar.

[Clan's Cynic]

I think maybe you're looking at it the wrong way about the black and white stuff Eeek. It's not so much black and white in a free-thinking of way, but black and white regarding Sigmar's wishes. 

So if Sigmar says, "go forth and wipe Chaos from this kingdom" a Stormcast who's only been reforged once or twice might go in there, kick out the Chaos armies from the cities, save the innocents who've been enslaved, torch the stuff that's obviously mutated beyond saving (the tree branches turn into tentacles, etc) and leave the rest for the Witch Hunters to figure out.

Now, once they've been through the proverbial mud several dozen times, "go forth and drive Chaos from this kingdom" suddenly gets taken very, very literally to the absolute extreme. Those civilians who were enslaved came into contact with the stuff of Chaos, so they need to be tossed on the pyre  no matter how loyal or healthy they look, those buildings were close to a Warp rift so it's probably best not to take any chances and bring down the entire city. Actually the crop's are looking a bit poor, so let's salt the earth and make sure neither Chaos - nor anything, ever - can touch them, 

Or it's more simply  a sliding scale of freewill and freethinking to mindless robotic drone.

[eekamouse]

Maybe.

But maybe Sigmar isn't doing a good enough job. All this bureaucratic nonsense is getting in the way! All life is pain! Life must be extinguished to remove their suffering! If we remove half the population the other half can live like kings!

Thanoscast.

[Clan's Cynic]

Just now, eekamouse said:

Maybe.

But maybe Sigmar isn't doing a good enough job. All this bureaucratic nonsense is getting in the way! All life is pain! Life must be extinguished to remove their suffering! If we remove half the population the other half can live like kings!

 Thanoscast.

If somebody's moral core becomes more rigid, it means they double down on whatever belief they're holding, which the Reforging ensures is believing that Sigmar is just the swellest, hottest, smartest, wisest dude ever). 

A Stormcast who's only been reforged once might have his doubts about certain things Sigmar orders. One who's been reforged over a dozen times would not. It's kind of the opposite to what you're suggesting, at least that's my take on it. 

[eekamouse]

Definitely appreciate that point of view. Listening to how it's described in the video... maybe "rigid' wasn't the best term to use. 

[robinlvalentine]

In the Malign Portents story about reforging, it seemed like Sigmar was effectively stripping away any trace of personality that might inspire rebellion, rendering the Stormcast more and more inhuman and robotic - which is why they're lose memories, presumably. So it seems like they're getting less wilful and independently-minded, not more, and thus are less likely than ever to rebel or defect. But that loss of humanity leads them to become more and more brutal in carrying out Sigmar's orders. So yeah it seems like the opposite of what you're saying.

[RexHavoc]

I've been sure they are setting up a plot line where stormcast break off from Sigmar and strike out on their own and I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't tie back to something from the old world as well as this would be a good chance to have an old character be revealed to now be a stormcast. I'm doubting it will be anything to do with Felix, as if it's true that he is now a stormcast that will be saved for his own storyline.

I'm not too sure that a full blown Horus Heresy mirror story would be well received, but I wouldn't put it past them now, the HH has been incredible successful and a fantasy equivalent would do wonders for GWs bank balance. A 50+ epic with a story of civil war between the human factions could be fantastic and if done right would give them the next ten years worth of books, models and campaigns to work from.
I do think it might call a lot of nay-saying though, I think a lot of people would complain that AoS is mirroring 40k too much. But as long as it was more than a copy paste:
" 'I WAS THERE,’ he would say afterwards, until afterwards became a time quite devoid of laughter. ‘I was there, the day Horus Vandus slew the Emperor GODKING.’ It was a delicious conceit, and his comrades Stormcast buddies would chuckle at the sheer treason of it." I think it could be fantastic. Would be a good way to introduce new humans not part of the free guild or more mortal chaos tribes.

I'd love mercenary stormcast. They would make for super cool models- like how chaos space marines are marines with tons of bits (character) added on, stormcast mercenaries would be an awesome fantasy version of that and make for some really cool conversions- furs, cloaks, backpacks, eye-patches, custom shields. Would be pretty easy for GW to make an upgrade sprue for them too. 

I'd love to see a greedy stormcast band, not good or evil but greedy. I think the game is prime for some more grey alignment forces (a bit like the overlords). Reforged too many times, they no longer tell right from wrong and are only really interested in treasure, mead and good times! (Cue the introduction of Slaanesh-cast!)

[eekamouse]

Ya it's ripe for that. The modelling would be awesome I think.

Just as an aside, since I went back and re-listened:

He does say in the video that the reforging process is flawed because it was rushed... which I thought was funny given the roll out of the game three years ago.

[Riavan]

I like the idea of stormcast basically just deserting and forming mercenary bands more than horus or deathcast eternals.

[eekamouse]

2 minutes ago, Riavan said:

I like the idea of stormcast basically just deserting and forming mercenary bands more than horus or deathcast eternals.

Seems a bit more plausible if their mental faculties are all garbled up. Organization wouldn't be a strong suit.

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I always hated the idea of the Deathcast. It seems so lazy and unimaginative.

[Requete]

9 hours ago, robinlvalentine said:

In the Malign Portents story about reforging, it seemed like Sigmar was effectively stripping away any trace of personality that might inspire rebellion, rendering the Stormcast more and more inhuman and robotic - which is why they're lose memories, presumably. So it seems like they're getting less wilful and independently-minded, not more, and thus are less likely than ever to rebel or defect. But that loss of humanity leads them to become more and more brutal in carrying out Sigmar's orders. So yeah it seems like the opposite of what you're saying.

In a way, the loss of personality makes them more reflective of the extreme interpretation of Order, in which there is no room for individuality.

[SirPug]

I dont see sigmar taking stormcast's personalities away on purpose. To me it simply seems that part of them is lost when their essence is reformed on sigmars anvil as a unfortunate side effect.

It's not like dying and being but together wouldn't take a toll after a time.

[eekamouse]

Just now, SirPug said:

I dont see sigmar taking stormcast's personalities away on purpose. To me it simply seems that part of them is lost when their essence is reformed on sigmars anvil as a unfortunate side effect.

It's not like dying and being but together wouldn't take a toll after a time.

Ya... just going off of how it's presented in the video, Sigmar rushed the Reforging process, or was forced to. It sounds like he didn't intend to have it work quite the way it does now.

[robinlvalentine]

1 hour ago, SirPug said:

I dont see sigmar taking stormcast's personalities away on purpose. To me it simply seems that part of them is lost when their essence is reformed on sigmars anvil as a unfortunate side effect.

It's not like dying and being but together wouldn't take a toll after a time.

This story implies it's being done deliberately - not because Sigmar's a tyrant who hates individuality, but just because it's the only way to keep rebellious Stormcast in line when they're reforged. Maybe he's not even fully aware it's happening, but the system he's set up is purposely doing it. Presumably if he'd had time to perfect the process, it wouldn't be necessary.  https://malignportents.com/story/the-price-of-apotheosis/

[MacDuff]

So will we get Stormcast Necrons (Mk. I), or Terminator Lone Rangers?

[JReynolds]

Just now, xking said:

No, It's a flaw and he is aware of it. Sigmar specifically chooses heroes and gives them all individually  a new name,  He then puts them into a stormhost  based on person.  The reason Sigmar has sent out  his Sacrosanct Chambers is to find a cure for the reforging flaw.  https://malignportents.com/story/sacrosanct/

Another possibility is that it's part of a disconnect between Sigmar and those who oversee the Reforging process. There's a flaw, and Sigmar wants it fixed, but some among his servants might not see it as an entirely bad thing and so take advantage of it to...prune what they view as undesirable traits from the reforged warriors.  All in the interest of better serving Sigmar, obviously. 

[EccentricCircle]

7 minutes ago, xking said:

No, It's a flaw and he is aware of it. Sigmar specifically chooses heroes and gives them all individually  a new name,  He then puts them into a stormhost  based on person.  The reason Sigmar has sent out  his Sacrosanct Chambers is to find a cure for the reforging flaw.  https://malignportents.com/story/sacrosanct/

In light of the first story I'd interpret the whole "flaw in the reforging process" as Sigmar's propaganda. GW have always loved to present conflicting information based on in universe sources, and let players decide what they believe. I love that most people will know the "official story" while those who read that MP story have delved into forbidden lore, and discovered the dark truth behind the ''flaw".

[JReynolds]

1 minute ago, xking said:

The Six smiths? Would that not  tick Sigmar off if he found out?

Or the Sacrosanct Chamber. Or both.

And that is the question, isn't it? 

Remember, the Six Smiths aren't human demi-gods...they're duardin. Which means they might not have the same perspective on things as Sigmar does. 

[EccentricCircle]

7 minutes ago, xking said:

No. 

Why not?

[EccentricCircle]

Well, I doubt he wants to have to do it. But the ends justify the means. Removing a bit if personality, and gradually having less effective soldiers is preferable to not being able to reforge them at all. 

[robinlvalentine]

27 minutes ago, xking said:

What are you talking about? There is nothing stopping him from reforging them. The flaw is not intentional anyway, This has been mentioned multiple times by phil kelly and in lore. 

That Malign Portents story basically makes it clear that some Stormcast don't *want* to be reforged, and that removing parts of their personality bypasses their resistance.

So the question is, what is the flaw? How did Sigmar want the process to work? How is the reforging *supposed* to deal with Stormcast who've decided they've had enough? Is Stormcast deciding they've had enough itself the flaw, and if it is, is the solution making them less individualistic? It's clearly not as simple as just 'Stormcast are losing memories over time', and I think the ambiguity is deliberate, to introduce shades of grey. 

[EccentricCircle]

1 hour ago, xking said:

What are you talking about? There is nothing stopping him from reforging them. The flaw is not intentional anyway, This has been mentioned multiple times by phil kelly and in lore. 

Looks like we'll have to agree to differ on this one, which is fair enough.
To sum up my argument, it is largely based on this bit from the end of the story.

"After what seemed like an age, the hammering of the Six Smiths fell silent. There had been no more screaming after the first hundred or so blows. That anguished part of the reforged’s soul had been eradicated, discarded as unworkable scrap. Kavastus wondered how much of the warrior’s humanity had been lost, but he cast these thoughts swiftly from his mind. If the reforged could once again fight in the God-King’s wars, then no cost was too great. "

 This story definitely sent a shudder down my spine when reading it, and a cold sense of "so that's whats going on..." so well done to the author!
This seems to suggest that the "flaw" lies in the fact that as Sigmar's endless wars rage on, many of the Stormcast are no longer wishing to be reforged, and the only way to force them into their next reincarnation is to cut away some of their personality, leaving them that bit more robotic. I'm sure no one wants this, and whether Sigmar is actually sanctioning it, or genuinely believes that something is wrong with the process is clearly up for debate. I love the horrific implication that the only fix for the problem would be the end to the war, and that things are just going to get worse. It gives the Stormcast a really nihilistic "warhammery" vibe, which I had been concerned they were lacking before.
Clearly all works of fiction can have multiple interpretations, so not everyone will read the same thing into this story. That's the great thing about this game, we all make our own version of the world when we play our games.
As to what's been said in interviews I always tend to take the creator's statements with a pinch of salt. For many, preserving a good twist necessitates telling fibs in interviews and that's all part and parcel of presenting a work of fiction to your audience in the most compelling way.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject.

[zedatkinszed]

22 hours ago, eekamouse said:

The way he describes it in the context of Nagash wanting new souls had me thinking this was another hint towards Deathcast... at first. But, as he went on he talked about how the moral compass of a Stormcast becomes more and more black and white, and rigid. I could definitely see a split of some Stormcast with Sigmar, but not on any kind of large scale swing akin to the Heresy. Rather, I could see pockets of deluded Stormcast throwing their weight behind any of the factions including Destruction, Chaos, and Death. 

1

I like this idea and thought they might go this way but what Phil Kelly says is crystal clear. With multiple reforgings, the SCE become "more like war machines, [ready] to destroy chaos and nothing much else." They will eventually become automatons for Order - mindless slaves of Sigmar's will. Not corrupted (unfortunately).