I now realize what AoS is lacking in my eyes

[HorticulusTGA]

1 hour ago, Chikout said:

Le blog De Kouzes really is the best hobby blog out there. Amazing work.

That's why GW recruits directly from them  Notably Maxime Pastourel who created the Death Guard in Dark Imperium after his Plague Bone army got - rightly - noticed. 

Rumor has it some Kouzes (which BTW means "cousin" in Orkish French) are working for GW on Slaanesh since a 1-2 years... There was an awesomely converted Emperor's Children army from them in WD a few years ago. 

For @Immersturm here is the whole Warband, for conversion purpose : Defenders of Sunheim, by Wolidor

http://leskouzes.blogspot.ch/2017/12/ (just scroll down  )

[Immersturm]

@HorticulusTGA Hm, between those Blanche sketches and those conversions I am almost inclinded to say SCE. I suppose I still have a mental blockade when it comes to SCE. Them and SM were my primary armies back before I took my major break and did some soul searching. During that time I was obsessed with winning and competitive play. Guess that is why they still leave a sour taste in my mouth. Having returned to Imperial Guard in 40k, I am hence considering Free People. But damn, a War Altar of Sigmar with Flagellants and various priests with a small contingent of SCE would sure look awesome. More so than with Free People, although Franz with Demigryphs is a sight to behold.

[TheOtherJosh]

Regarding Faith in AoS and in the universe as a whole, I would say that the storylines surrounding Nagash have it in spades.

I highly recommend the newest Nagash novel:

“Nagash, the Undying King” by Josh Reynolds.

https://www.blacklibrary.com/new-titles/featured/nagash-the-undying-king-ebook.html

Those and the Realmgate Wars Nagash novels (book 9 and 10): They were slightly clunky at points, but the interaction between the Shyish faithful and the Stormcast was interesting. But I definitely enjoyed the most recent one most of all. ... almost makes me want to start a death Army ....

Mortarch Of Night (Realmgate Wars Book 9)

Lord Of Undeath (Realmgate Wars Book 10)

 

[Barkanaut]

2 hours ago, Immersturm said:

Okay then, to steer the conversation away from theological subjects, I would want to discuss how it would be best to represent such a theme on the table. I've gotten plenty of satisfactory answers and plenty of reading to do. Suffice it to say, that I may need to reevaluate my stance towards AoS. Clearly, I am not as well versed in how the fluff has developed since I last poked my head it

Anyway, bringing this to the table. I am now less of a player, so it does not need to be a highly efficient concept. I would want it to bring across said idea though, but also limited in size a I have limited space on my shelves

I still have plenty of Devotes of Sigmar from WHFB times. I guess those are a good starting point? Mst of the minis I own are Empire, with a few SCE swimming around somewhere. However, taking it all together will result in waaaaay too much. I like it nice and compact

I’m going to be brutally honest with you here. Your not going to like AoS. Your simply not it’s going to bring up too much painful memories of the past. AoS is like you said divorcing itself from many of the old themes of fantasy and 40k which is great as those have been so done to death at this point. AoS setting is high mystical where litteral giant beasts roam the world and each realm is a massive universe sized chunk of land. It’s not uncommon to see planets and fiery planets and all sorts of strange celestial  objects around because iof the high concentration of magic. I would say it’s closest to Norse mythology now in that way. They are toning down the gods directly fighting aspect though. 

As for your old fantasy army it probably wont be supported. Heck most legacy armies are being moved into the print on demand (last chance to buy) status that usually means its being totally phased out. So in competitive events they won’t be legal despite getting rules for legacy play. 

Now I can’t see the future but GW knows there is a high demand for ordinary humans, but I don’t know how faithful they will be or when they might return. 

[Twitch of Izalith]

I think one of the best things about the AoS setting is that its big enough and diverse enough that you can create whatever background and motivations you like for your army. Additionally the fact that we know there are survivors from the warhammer fantasy world (well - their descendants by now!) present in the Mortal Realms means that bringing aspects of that world you find inspiring into your AoS army is perfectly logical and reasonable - Indeed GW are doing it themselves recently!

There are probably many people in the Realms who have never even seen a Stormcast - let alone witnessed Sigmar himself. These societies and settlements may view Sigmar and his Stormhosts much in the same way as medieval Christians would have viewed their god and his angels. 

If you are inspired by the idea of faith and by Christian iconography take something from that world and apply it to the game. When I started my SCE army my original concept was to mimic an army from the crusades with a steel, white and red colour scheme - white shields with the cross of St George in red. In the end I backed off at the thought of sanding off all the sigmar iconography... 

I don't think you should feel limited by the published material and I don't think it has ever been GW's intention that people should feel constrained by it.

And if the warhammer background is what you love you can always play warhammer - or play games of AoS in the warhammer world. I never stopped playing Fantasy and I live in the middle of nowhere. If I can find people who want to play then anyone can!

[Skabnoze]

4 hours ago, KHHaunts said:

I understand what you mean. This will seem like an odd comparison but vare with me. Its like Nagash. I love Nagash his model and his back story. But nothing for me will compare to when he was a myth. When he was just a name from a time long gone that made people tremble when they heard it. When he finally came into the current lore i loved seeing the legend come alive but then the thrill was gone. I love seeing all the god models and their stories but i miss there being these unseen figures behind the scenes who presence is always felt but never seen. 

When was he a myth?

I mean, he took a sabbatical from having rules, and his original model was out of production for a while before they made a new one for the End Times, but he was never a myth.  He was an actual giant Necromancer Wight Lord, that was just sitting in his house very very very deep in thought for a long time.  But go back to 4th/5th edition of the game, when all Undead were in a single book - and he had rules and a model.

[sandlemad]

2 hours ago, Immersturm said:

@HorticulusTGA Hm, between those Blanche sketches and those conversions I am almost inclinded to say SCE. I suppose I still have a mental blockade when it comes to SCE. Them and SM were my primary armies back before I took my major break and did some soul searching. During that time I was obsessed with winning and competitive play. Guess that is why they still leave a sour taste in my mouth. Having returned to Imperial Guard in 40k, I am hence considering Free People. But damn, a War Altar of Sigmar with Flagellants and various priests with a small contingent of SCE would sure look awesome. More so than with Free People, although Franz with Demigryphs is a sight to behold.

Sounds great, go for it. SCE could look very good with the WHFB/Empire aspects ramped up: candles, pennants, feathers, chequers, heraldic suns, all that Mordheim goodness. I haven't seen any specifically Blanchian approaches to them beyond a handful of individual models but it should work. Have them as silent, unspeaking, dreadful dudes in masks who barely seem to notice the surrounding flagellants and hardbitten freeguilders.  What do faith, belief and duty mean to a career soldier when they are fighting alongside a grim avatar of their deity in the trenches? What do they question or reappraise? What is bolstered?

I strongly disagree with folks saying AoS isn't for you, it 100% can be. There's room to make it your own, in theory even more than in WHFB, you just need to stray a little from the brightly-lit path of big events and big names.  40k can be more than Guillman and Abaddon and though it's early days AoS has that potential too. The epic style will always be there but that doesn't mean it has to occupy your attention.

If you haven't already, I'd recommend you check out the AoS28 project. There's a lengthy thread on these forums about it with some insanely good modelling going on, lots of Blanchitsu and WHFB-inspired stuff but also some grimier Dark Souls, weird fiction, gothic fantasy and folk horror-inspired work. There's also a pretty active facebook group and I'm sure it's an instagram hashtag. Lot of the folks drawn to it felt like you and few seem overly interested in competitive play or having the latest army. For SCE, how about Ana Polanscak's take?

[Lucio]

Interesting thoughts from a theological viewpoint, definitely seeing a much more Nordic / Greco-Roman style of diety within the AoS world, what with their direct interactions, human failings and general demeanor.

If you're someone used to a typical Jeudo-Christian belief system I can see how that becomes more difficult to associate with.

 

Daft as it sounds, Skaven might be your answer, the Great Horned Rat is much more a figure that had behaviours and attitudes associated with a Christian belief system. Father figure of the race, distant and uninvolved on a day to day level, but does grant worshipers a measure of power.

[AthlorianStoners]

I agree, ignore people saying the games not for you, it’s very malleable and can definitely fit any player. 

Theres something so chilling and epic about the Hallowed Knights and I think you should read more on them. 

Picturing a Stormcast facing off against A Great Unclean one, knowing he’s going to die and his last words are, “Only the faithful”, there’s just something so cool about it. 

[Immersturm]

7 minutes ago, Lucio said:

Interesting thoughts from a theological viewpoint, definitely seeing a much more Nordic / Greco-Roman style of diety within the AoS world, what with their direct interactions, human failings and general demeanor.

If you're someone used to a typical Jeudo-Christian belief system I can see how that becomes more difficult to associate with.

 

Daft as it sounds, Skaven might be your answer, the Great Horned Rat is much more a figure that had behaviours and attitudes associated with a Christian belief system. Father figure of the race, distant and uninvolved on a day to day level, but does grant worshipers a measure of power.

That is obviously the talk of Chaos, trying to lure me into the dark side Oo MY FACE IS MY SHIELD! MY FURY IS MY SWORD!

[Skabnoze]

Age of Sigmar is most definitely heavily influenced on the older Eurasian pagan mythos than the more modern Abrahamic ones, but that is not the biggest separation from the underlying themes of the Warhammer Old World or that of 40k.

Now, I am not fully versed in all of the fluff for Age of Sigmar, having come back to it recently.  I understand most of the broad strokes, but there are a lot of little details I don't know.  That said, if you look at the major broad themes that 40k and the Old World were built on - they are extremely heavily steeped in the European Dark and Middle Ages.  Most of the thematic items of those worlds can be directly traced back to that concept. 

Remember that the Dark and Middle Ages in europe was effectively close to an apocalypse.  You had a period of "Enlightenment" in the Roman expansion - where a highly advanced civilization conquered much of europe and brought with it huge advanced in science, medicine, philosophy, warfare, engineering, etc.   Some of these advances were so great compared to what was existing that it did not appear too different from magic.  And then the Empire began to collapse and rapidly shrank - abandoning much of the conquered territory.  There was a huge loss of knowledge and skills, and people lived in the literal shadow of the "great ancients" as the roman buildings crumbled (or were broken down for raw materials).  This is a huge theme in Tolkien as well - which is where the Warhammer Old World got a lot of it's original ideas.  And then you had a large embrace of religion, a turning away from science, and very heavy mysticism. 

40k is almost a direct parallel to this.  In the Warhammer Old World most of the civilizations ran with that theme as well.  The Elf civilizations were a shadow of their original Splendor.  So were the Dwarfs, Lizardmen, and Humans.

The place where Age of Sigmar seems to really depart from previous GW worlds lore is that they have set it in a classical period - rather than a medieval one.  And they have fully embraced this from the metaphysical to the political.  This is a universe that is still young, is still being created, developed, and fought over by the deities, races, and factions.  It is a stark difference from a world which has suffered a massive back-slide of knowledge and filled much of that void with a heavy embrace of mysticism.

[Shenordak]

I understand your thoughts, but on the other hand I kind of like the direction they took it. Sure, it's much more high fantasy than the low fantasy of the Old World, with actual gods running around, but on the other hand they have kind of kept the darkness, evn if it's not quite as grim.

And there is the gist of: 40k is gothic grimdark codified. Fanatic humans worshipping a godlike hero in golden armour is its stick. It already runs on all of those tropes. To throw in something like the ecclesiarchy to Age of Sigmar will just bring it too close to for 40k, what with its almost-but-not-quite space marines and whatnot. 

I see AoS and the mortal realms parallelling old DnD Planescape, with its myriad wierd planes of existence and gods that you can actually interact with, but need prayers to survive. Faith in such a world is not the same as in ours, it is more an exchange of services. Actually, I wouldn't mind a real, bickering human pantheon like the Greek olympians or the norse asir.

[Ollie Grimwood]

Hang on Sigmar wasn’t a monotheistic style god in WFB he was the youngest god in a Norse/Greek/ Egyptian pantheon along with many other such as Morr, Ulric, Verena, Shallaya or Mannan (and more) or course there were also the Elf gods as well (with some cross over Khaine was Morr’s brother).   In fact I’d suggest there were a whole lot more gods in WFB than there are in AoS 

[Shenordak]

7 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Hang on Sigmar wasn’t a monotheistic style god in WFB he was the youngest god in a Norse/Greek/ Egyptian pantheon along with many other such as Morr, Ulric, Verena, Shallaya or Mannan (and more) or course there were also the Elf gods as well (with some cross over Khaine was Morr’s brother).   In fact I’d suggest there were a whole lot more gods in WFB than there are in AoS 

Sure, but they were a lot more distant, like in they didn't really walk the world so to speak. They felt like they could just as well not exist, interacting only very indirectly with mortals, i.e. like real religions.

[Skabnoze]

19 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

Hang on Sigmar wasn’t a monotheistic style god in WFB he was the youngest god in a Norse/Greek/ Egyptian pantheon along with many other such as Morr, Ulric, Verena, Shallaya or Mannan (and more) or course there were also the Elf gods as well (with some cross over Khaine was Morr’s brother).   In fact I’d suggest there were a whole lot more gods in WFB than there are in AoS 

This is true, but I don't think that was really the issue for the original poster. 

Take a look at my earlier post.  I think what he is lamenting is the move away from Gothic middle/dark age influences for the setting to primarily a classical setting.  

In regards to the Empire, those other gods are closer in parallel to Saints in middle-aged europe than they are to the Norse/Greek/Egyptian pantheon.  But, you can also make the argument that dark/middle age catholicism was fairly paganish in practice.

[Aelfric]

Although the new Aelves have an ancient Greek influence, I have always considered Sigmar in the new lore more akin to Odin than Zeus ( with a bit of Thor thrown in ), and the setting with its many realms are very similar to Norse mythology.  TheStormcast are the Einjahr in Valhalla, who fight each other every day and are made whole again, and were chosen for their heroic deeds to fight for the Gods against the various types of giant ( Chaos ).  All the realms were connected via Yggdrasil the world tree ( realmgates ), while Sigmar is able to send the Stormcast anywhere ( Bifrost bridge  ).  There are many other similarities.  Especially as we have already been through Ragnarok with new Gods forming to replace the old that did not survive. 

Perhaps looking at the game from this perspective may help.

[Ollie Grimwood]

9 minutes ago, Shenordak said:

Sure, but they were a lot more distant, like in they didn't really walk the world so to speak. They felt like they could just as well not exist, interacting only very indirectly with mortals, i.e. like real religions.

It varied a bit over the various edition/ games and we had a few personal appearances in the End Times. 

[Skabnoze]

4 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Although the new Aelves have an ancient Greek influence, I have always considered Sigmar in the new lore more akin to Odin than Zeus ( with a bit of Thor thrown in ), and the setting with its many realms are very similar to Norse mythology.  TheStormcast are the Einjahr in Valhalla, who fight each other every day and are made whole again, and were chosen for their heroic deeds to fight for the Gods against the various types of giant ( Chaos ).  All the realms were connected via Yggdrasil the world tree ( realmgates ), while Sigmar is able to send the Stormcast anywhere ( Bifrost bridge  ).  There are many other similarities.  Especially as we have already been through Ragnarok with new Gods forming to replace the old that did not survive. 

Perhaps looking at the game from this perspective may help.

It is pretty much a mish-mash of ideas from various mythos.  They took some norse elements, some greek elements, I have not looked deep but I would not be surprised to see some Egyptian, Mayan, or Sumerian influences in there also.  And to be fair, a number of the European pagan religions influenced and borrowed elements from each other. 

But GW grabbed those, tossed them in a pot, added some elements of "the world that was", and then topped it with a bit of their own creative sauce to create Age of Sigmar.

[Shenordak]

4 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

It varied a bit over the various edition/ games and we had a few personal appearances in the End Times. 

Maybe, but there was always the element of doubt. That's kind of the most important prerequisite for faith 

[Immersturm]

8 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

It is pretty much a mish-mash of ideas from various mythos.  They took some norse elements, some greek elements, I have not looked deep but I would not be surprised to see some Egyptian, Mayan, or Sumerian influences in there also.  And to be fair, a number of the European pagan religions influenced and borrowed elements from each other. 

But GW grabbed those, tossed them in a pot, added some elements of "the world that was", and then topped it with a bit of their own creative sauce to create Age of Sigmar.

So it basically comes down to picking whatever I personally want out of the pot and building on that. That is what I getting from it

[Ollie Grimwood]

7 minutes ago, Shenordak said:

Maybe, but there was always the element of doubt. That's kind of the most important prerequisite for faith 

True but the doubt was whether or not they’d help rather than if they existed, but the more devoted a follower the more likely they receive assistance so there is that aspect of faith. 

[Melcavuk]

I think the issues surrounding the lack of "faith" in Sigmar may stem from the playable model gods, barring Sigmar himself so far obviously. The empires as a whole dont neccessarily need to have faith in something that is fact. Sigmar is there and exists and is powerful, its a matter of fact rather than a leap of faith or something that is "believed" rather than known.

 

But looking at it from a wider point of view, especially from the mortal souls saved by their gods they were quite literally "created" by these beings, divine or corrupt they literally have seen the faces of their gods. The fact that a faction doesnt currently exist that fits your theme of faith within the game doesnt prevent you from designing one and fluffing itg out to meet your ends. Infact it would be a fantastic project and one you could really go the distance with.

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, Immersturm said:

So it basically comes down to picking whatever I personally want out of the pot and building on that. That is what I getting from it

It is not quite the point I was making, but I think you have nailed it.

It sounds to me that you do not currently like that GW has purposefully so far decided to wholly embrace a Classical period style of myth for their world-building and ignore elements that they heavily used in the past (mostly the gothic elements wholly steeped in medieval catholicism).  If that is the case, and you want to continue to play and enjoy the game, then I think you will need to decide what parts you do like and then build that into something that does appeal to you.  One of the nice things about GW games is that they have always been fairly embracing on imaginative conversion projects and have made their system in a way that allows fan creativity.  It sounds like that may be your best avenue at the moment to enjoy this particular game.  But it is also not a mortal sin to no longer like a particular game or product and select some other alternative - there may be another game out there that appeals more towards what you are looking for.  There is nothing wrong with that.

This is your free time we are talking about - so in the end just do what appeals to you.

[KHHaunts]

3 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

When was he a myth?

I mean, he took a sabbatical from having rules, and his original model was out of production for a while before they made a new one for the End Times, but he was never a myth.  He was an actual giant Necromancer Wight Lord, that was just sitting in his house very very very deep in thought for a long time.  But go back to 4th/5th edition of the game, when all Undead were in a single book - and he had rules and a model.

Obviously not a myth from OUR point of view but of course he was as far as the setting went.

Most of the people in the setting of WHFB had only ever heard of him in stories he wasent this active being that was definatly around.

His background left alot to the imagination which in many ways to me was far better than his actual self. Dont get me wrong i was SO excited when he appeared in the end times because a legend was coming to life.

But that legend cant come to life again any time soon.

As for his model i think saying he went out of production for a "while" is something of an understatement.

So yeah he was a myth and legend at one point. Its not like everyone in the old world new for a fact that he existed just like how in 40k many of the genral populous dont know that Chaos exists.

[KHHaunts]

7 hours ago, Morglum StormBasha said:

Thanks for starting this discussion!

i agree that when AoS first came out the active presence of gods leading the narrative was a turn off for me.

in fantasy battle you were never sure if khaine or Mathlann had real power and even less so sigmar as a human ascended to godhood rather than an old gold. The emphasis of the fantasy battle books is set at a human participant level perspective where even if the old gods were influencing things you wouldn’t know it and the books themselves didn’t treat it as relevant.it was Karl franz actions or teclis actions that mattered and not their gods.

sigmar especially early sigmar in its core concept has a Zeus like god throwing his new men at the realms to fight, and the opening narrative has a focus on bringing the goddess of life back to power. Even the chaos gods are treated as directly interacting with the world and ignax the god beast functions very much like Apollo with his chariot of fire  - it is stated that he is the sun! I also struggle with this as what does one man or indeed one 200 man army on the tabletop matter in a span setting so vast.

But I think the answer is you could imagine that the history of the old world was  all told from lileaths perspective She always would have seen the old world as a battle of the gods.

equally you could now set your stories in a part of the realm many leagues from the realm gates 100s of years since your free guild or sylvaneth last left azure or ghyran for them the gods are myths and something their ancestors believed in. Of the billions of inhabitants of the mortal realms only a few thousand would ever actually see the gods in action

This guy gets it.