Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Disclaimer: This is a personal opinion, that may or may not apply to you. After all, I can only speak for myself. This is me seeking advice on how to handle the issue and not an attempt to bash the game or you. Hello, folks. I've been away for a while and that gave me plenty of time to think, primaily on why AoS was not grabbing me as much as Fantasy did. It was quite the question. For example, it wasn't the system, because I disliked the regiment bases. I thought it was artstyle, but then again I really love the ancient Greek style the new Aelfs have, as well as the steampunk Dorfs. Sure, the SCE could've been better if they actually tried to recreate the Blanche sketches, but it ain't that bad. Sure, it lacks the gothic style the Empire had, but that can be recreated. Then I realized that it was something far simpler and yet far more fundamental. Faith. Before we go on, I will have to admit that I am extremely bias in that regard, but do not let that turn you off the discussion Anyway, something that always drove me to play as the Empire or Imperial Guard in 40k was the faith aspect. It was a story of regular men in a dark world, looking up to their respective deity for salvation. Things that always stuck most with me are DOW phrases from the Guardmen, such as "Faith is all that matters." "From the Emperor's mouth to my ear, sir!" "A true servant never yields to doubt." or the lore of Sigmar and the resulting Cult of Sigmar in WHFB. I love how Chaos is a physical manifestation of the evils a human has to fight within himself and how men were powerless against it, but are still able to stand against it by divine providence. I may or may not enjoy some aspects in either of those settings, but my heart was always firmly rooted in the aforementioned aspect. This would explain why, despite me actually liking the game and setting, my heart remains cold and empty. It has abandoned the faith aspect for the most part. Sigmar has now been quantified as a godlike human, but has lost the divine feel of a god he had in WHFB. The perspective shifted from a human looking up to a godlike being looking down. For me, this shift in perspective made it less about the struggle of the individual and more about watching a said godlike being enacting its plans. It has shifted away from a Christianity-inspired setting (am I allowed to say this on this board?) to more of a ancient Greek mythology style. Hm, it is rather difficult to put it into words, especially for someone like me, who isn't very eloquent. But I hope I could bring my point across. Even though we still have factions like Devoted of Sigmar, the shift away from faith and putting the focus away from the believer and onto the one they believe in (If that is even still the case in AoS. I mean, do they stil pray or so forth? Or do they just know Sigmar is there?). Thanks for reading. Take care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stato Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I dont have the background in WHFB but to me faith is foremost in the lore of AoS. Every short story or book mentions gods or has people praying to gods (read Spear of Shadows if you are interested in the human interaction with gods). The difference seems to be gods are real in AoS while they were distant in WHFB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKennyThing Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Can't say this particularly bothers me, but each to their own. In the case of this game this God(s) they all had faith in actually exist (I don't mean this in an offensive way, I mean they're actually there in the story), which I would have thought would be a good thing. All the subjects of Sigmar don't know for sure he exists, practically none will have ever seen him. Soldiers of the Free Peoples will have battles intervened by the Stormcast Eternals, for sure, but there's still a bit of mysticism about it. You could, perhaps, take the opportunity to create your own faction. Most of the realms aren't fully explored and not a huge amount of stories written, there is nothing to suggest that somewhere there is a civilisation in one of the realms that is built entirely on faith. Use Free Peoples or Elves or something to represent your Order faction, come up with their own story, and their own motivations. Maybe they don't believe at all that the Stormcast Eternals are anything to do with Sigmar, maybe they're wholly resentful of such a notion, fervently believing that he's still yet to come, giving even the Black Templars a run for being overly zealous. In fact I've almost just inspired myself to make such a faction.... Immersturm, get on it! Hell, give them a faction house rule to use in narrative games, where a priest of some kind can make the army immune to battleshock for one turn or something. Something that represents a leader/hero calling for the army to literally call on their faith to give them strength. I think it'd be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 @stato Okay, let me try and put it more directly. WHFB, just as 40k, are more reminiscent of Christianity, where as AOS seems to mirror the Greek pantheon. To me, the latter has nothing to do with faith and holds no place in my heart. The reason is that Greek mythology is worldly at its core. It is how the various gods influence the earth, argue amongt each other and other crazy stories. There is nothing spiritual about. Imagine a Soldier or Warrior Priest praying to Sigmar when fighting chaos Daemons, and now compare it to a Stormcast asking Sigmar to throw down some lightning. I see a day and night difference there.This is as plainly as I want to it, as it would be entering a slippery slope that we ought not discuss on this forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorticulusTGA Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, Immersturm said: (...) This would explain why, despite me actually liking the game and setting, my heart remains cold and empty. It has abandoned the faith aspect for the most part. Sigmar has now been quantified as a godlike human, but has lost the divine feel of a god he had in WHFB. The perspective shifted from a human looking up to a godlike being looking down. For me, this shift in perspective made it less about the struggle of the individual and more about watching a said godlike being enacting its plans. It has shifted away from a Christianity-inspired setting (am I allowed to say this on this board?) to more of a ancient Greek mythology style. (...) Hello ! Very interesting read. I think I understand what you mean here, even if I'm not sure that's entirely "correct". The Greek mythology aspect was indeed already hugely present in WFB (and in 40k - Horus heresy), but their was maybe more room for the commoner's perspective. It's very true that the Astra Militarum (and Adeptas Sororitas, etc,) and the Empire have a very "catholic" aspect and perspective on their respective worlds. The fact that the Old world was Europe-inspired (notably France, Holy German Empire, Italy, Espagna --> Bretonnia, the Empire, Tilea, Estalia - all catholic states) made this Christian element more prominent. That said, it's interesting to note that almost every army are more "faithful" now than before : because almost everybody fight for their gods like the Bretonnain fought for the Lady (Fyreslayers -> Grimnir, Daughter of Khaine -> Morathi Khaine, Sylvaneth -> Alarielle, Stromcast -> Sigmar, the Chaos armies -> Tzeentch, Slaanesh, Khorne, Nurgle, etc.). Also, recently (notably in the BL books Spear of Shadows and City of Secret), the focus has once again (partially) switched on the common man / duardin / aelve. And wouldn't be a full charge of a Hallowed Knights' chamber Extremis be very crusade-y ? Only the faithful ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 Ah, the Hallowed Knights. Interesting idea. To be fair though, I have sort of gravitated away from SCE, much like Marines. It is somehow not the same as Free People/Imperial Guard. SCE see themselves as a weapon of Sigmar. I do not see a Hallowed Knight kneeing and crying out to Sigmar when outmatched by Chaos. It is something about a human, who alone is powerless, being strengthened through faith, that sets it apart from a 'super soldier' created by said god. I do agree that the presence of various deities is definitely more profound in AoS though Hah, reading through it, I notice that there are so many ways to see issue at hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorticulusTGA Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, Immersturm said: I do not see a Hallowed Knight kneeing and crying out to Sigmar when outmatched by Chaos. Well ! And yet that's what some of them did - if this perspective on this most pious of Stormhost interests you, I recommend reading "Hammerhal & Other stories" and "Plague garden". (But yeah, not all Stormcast behave this way). You could also create a mixed order army composed of Hallowed Knights and Devoted of Sigmar or Freeguild, based on one the Free City allegiances in the Firestorm campaign supplement. Or use Empire celestial bitz to convert your Stormcast to more lookl like the JB sketches (which are absolutely amazing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 @Immersturm - I appreciate what you are doing here in trying to not make this into a real world religious debate or anything, so the topic is fine as it is. Just a friendly reminder for everyone to keep it this way going forwards please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 I like the idea of doing a homebrew. Ever since I decided to drop the toxic mess that I tried to sell as my competitive attitude, I have been more open to these sort of things. I do have 40 odd Flagellants, an Altar of Sigmar and various Warrior Priests around, so I guess that is a start. @HorticulusTGA I lime the image, though I wonder what faction(s) I would like to add to make a faithful Sigmarite army fitting of the new world. Definitely Devotes of Sigmar, but what else? SCE or Free People? I do not want to go overboard and make 5000pts of everything. I do not have the ability to play very often and thus I like to keep my projects manageable and within the 2000-ish points scope. Edit: And yes, the Blanche SCE look fantastic. The old Empire iconography on ther with the twin-tailed comets and the grim-looking sun is just perfect Oo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHHaunts Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I understand what you mean. This will seem like an odd comparison but vare with me. Its like Nagash. I love Nagash his model and his back story. But nothing for me will compare to when he was a myth. When he was just a name from a time long gone that made people tremble when they heard it. When he finally came into the current lore i loved seeing the legend come alive but then the thrill was gone. I love seeing all the god models and their stories but i miss there being these unseen figures behind the scenes who presence is always felt but never seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Interesting. For me aos has a much stronger focus on faith than Warhammer Fantasy. Even the playtesters are called the faithful. You should read the story Path to Glory. It is very directly about faith. Many of Josh Reynolds books, especially those featuring the Hallowed Knights deal with spiritual faith directly and the idea of sacrifice to a greater cause. The setting deals with themes of resurrection, temptation, and devotion, all rather Christian. So long as the chaos gods are there as representations of the seven deadly sins there will always be strong elements of Christianity in the setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinoTitanedition Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 43 minutes ago, Immersturm said: @stato Okay, let me try and put it more directly. WHFB, just as 40k, are more reminiscent of Christianity, where as AOS seems to mirror the Greek pantheon. To me, the latter has nothing to do with faith and holds no place in my heart. The reason is that Greek mythology is worldly at its core. It is how the various gods influence the earth, argue amongt each other and other crazy stories. There is nothing spiritual about. Imagine a Soldier or Warrior Priest praying to Sigmar when fighting chaos Daemons, and now compare it to a Stormcast asking Sigmar to throw down some lightning. I see a day and night difference there.This is as plainly as I want to it, as it would be entering a slippery slope that we ought not discuss on this forum AoS lore is rather based on norse mythology. Nine realms of existence, the gods being creators of their own kind and still walking among the mortals, yet being able to die themselves. Azyr is pretty much Asgards Walhalla, where all the mighty warriors go, while Ghur represents very much Nifflheim, the land of trolls and beasts, and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandlemad Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Interesting stuff and well put! It's less obviously christian-inspired in a sense but one of the things I really liked about the Daughters of Khaine is that the background recognises them as an actual cult with actual belief. Sort of like the Maenads or Bacchae in greek literature but without a god actively joining them in their revels or granting them power. They're a fantasy cult but not one where their deity actively does stuff like a super-powered being, if you get me. In theory at least (almost nothing published on them yet) there should be room for exploring the believers and the 'human looking up', as you say. Might be a bit of a fine distinction but while followers of Khorne are pushed into a bloodrage by his warping influence (whether at once or by degrees), they have to work themselves up to a violent religious ecstacy in a fashion more analogous to real or at any rate non-magical examples. It's more mundane than the specific answered prayers or god-given mutations you get with the Stormcast or the hordes of chaos. These are earnest relgious fanatics with a structured religion, they're in it out of belief, not just trying to rise in their gods favour until they ascend to daemonhood. There is no one organised cult of Khorne or Nurgle, but many ways an individual relates to their patron eldritch being on the champion's path. The cult of Khaine is more grounded and in fiction has more room for exploring belief without the believer logically being turned into a chaos spawn. That said... given that their genuine faith is less 'doing our duty for the father god!' and more an earnest and somewhat philosophical 'murder is a positive thing and I am right to kill for my god', it may not quite be what you're after. Your concern for divine/semi-divine beings being the 'actors' would probably also run into Morathi manipulating the whole cult for her own ends in the 'main' AoS plot thread... and she's probably who future stories will emphasise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandlemad Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Actually, you might want to look at the Josh Reynolds novel Spear of Shadows. There's a brief literal god's eye view but there are also multiple faithful or warrior-priest characters who talk about their beliefs. There's even differing views of Sigmar; some characters view him as a storm-god, others as a grand high sandworm god. Sigmar doesn't burst through the clouds to specifiy his exact attributes. Or possible Nagash: The Undying King. It gets away from what KHHaunts rightly identifies about Nagash, that he suffers somewhat for appearing as an onscreen presence when so much of his dread is built around being a dark lord of myth. When we see things from his perspective though it's genuinely alien and fractured, barely comprehensible as a former human, experiencing time and space in a completely different way. More importantly, a good half of the book is from the perspective of a necromancer who was raised in the beliefs of her Nagash-worshipping tribe and whose belief is sincere. She never met her god or experienced his power-ups, so to speak. Can't remember what specific aspect of Nagash she worshipped but it comes up and is portrayed as more of a Jupiter/Zeus or Odin/Woden/Votan type of situation - culturally specific forms of belief - than something more magical. Needless to say when she starts engaging with him and his closer servants she experiences some culture shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 @xking Ah, see, there is the one point I feared would come up. I am well aware of what faith means. the whole issue is the moving away from Christianity-inspired themes to nordic/Greek ones. When I talk about faith in the posts above, I always mean the Judeo-Christian idea of it. I do not mean faith as it is writen in the dictionary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stato Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, Immersturm said: @xking Ah, see, there is the one point I feared would come up. I am well aware of what faith means. the whole issue is the moving away from Christianity-inspired themes to nordic/Greek ones. When I talk about faith in the posts above, I always mean the Judeo-Christian idea of it. I do not mean faith as it is writen in the dictionary. 1 hour ago, Immersturm said: For me, this shift in perspective made it less about the struggle of the individual and more about watching a said godlike being enacting its plans. It has shifted away from a Christianity-inspired setting (am I allowed to say this on this board?) to more of a ancient Greek mythology style. Taking these 2 points together, you seems to be against the idea of Gods being 'real' and acting in the world? But in all the stories i have read its nothing like 'watching a said godlike being enacting its plans'. Have you read any recent novels or stories set in AoS? The view you express certainly seems to be in line with the complaints people expressed early in AoS, which is not where AoS is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morglum StormBasha Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Thanks for starting this discussion! i agree that when AoS first came out the active presence of gods leading the narrative was a turn off for me. in fantasy battle you were never sure if khaine or Mathlann had real power and even less so sigmar as a human ascended to godhood rather than an old gold. The emphasis of the fantasy battle books is set at a human participant level perspective where even if the old gods were influencing things you wouldn’t know it and the books themselves didn’t treat it as relevant.it was Karl franz actions or teclis actions that mattered and not their gods. sigmar especially early sigmar in its core concept has a Zeus like god throwing his new men at the realms to fight, and the opening narrative has a focus on bringing the goddess of life back to power. Even the chaos gods are treated as directly interacting with the world and ignax the god beast functions very much like Apollo with his chariot of fire - it is stated that he is the sun! I also struggle with this as what does one man or indeed one 200 man army on the tabletop matter in a span setting so vast. But I think the answer is you could imagine that the history of the old world was all told from lileaths perspective She always would have seen the old world as a battle of the gods. equally you could now set your stories in a part of the realm many leagues from the realm gates 100s of years since your free guild or sylvaneth last left azure or ghyran for them the gods are myths and something their ancestors believed in. Of the billions of inhabitants of the mortal realms only a few thousand would ever actually see the gods in action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, stato said: Taking these 2 points together, you seems to be against the idea of Gods being 'real' and acting in the world? But in all the stories i have read its nothing like 'watching a said godlike being enacting its plans'. Have you read any recent novels or stories set in AoS? The view you express certainly seems to be in line with the complaints people expressed early in AoS, which is not where AoS is now. First up, I am talking about my perception. I admit, that I did not know a lot of what has been told in this thread. I will definiely have to reevaluate my position on the matter, no denying that. As for the AoS gods acting in reality, no I am not opposed to that. As I said, it is difficult to describe without having to go into territory that are not part of the TGA mission statement. It is not the fact that they act in the material world, even Sigmar in WHFB did. It is a question of how they act. It is more reminiscent of ancient mythology, where Gods build rivalries, choose mortal champions and take note of their activity in order to further selfish goals and one-up the other gods. Those are not the actions of a father-like deity as, whose actions are acts of compassion and aid against the fight against evil nature, as represented by Chaos in the Warhammer lore. Such was the theme, for the most part, in WHFB and Sigmar as well as the Emperor in 40k. I agree, to some degree Sigmar is still in that territory in AoS, but him ambitions turned rather 'human'. I do not wish to deepen this, as it will escalate quickly and lead to closure of this thread. If you are still confused about what I mean, please PM me and I will talk plainly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I would equate Sigmar to the God of the old testament who was rather more of an interventionist God. I don't think we are going to see him transforming into a bull and running of with a mortal woman any time soon. In Hammerhal there is conversation between Azyrites and the natives of the Realm of life about having faith in an absent God. I really do recommend reading some of these books. They are pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Chikout said: I would equate Sigmar to the God of the old testament who was rather more of an interventionist God. I don't think we are going to see him transforming into a bull and running of with a mortal woman any time soon. In Hammerhal there is conversation between Azyrites and the natives of the Realm of life about having faith in an absent God. I really do recommend reading some of these books. They are pretty good. Hm, interesting perspective. I like it. Kudos Okay, my reading list is filling up. Consider that I am a rather slow reader, this may take a while. Maybe I'll even finish by the time GW decides to bomb AoS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 Okay then, to steer the conversation away from theological subjects, I would want to discuss how it would be best to represent such a theme on the table. I've gotten plenty of satisfactory answers and plenty of reading to do. Suffice it to say, that I may need to reevaluate my stance towards AoS. Clearly, I am not as well versed in how the fluff has developed since I last poked my head it Anyway, bringing this to the table. I am now less of a player, so it does not need to be a highly efficient concept. I would want it to bring across said idea though, but also limited in size a I have limited space on my shelves I still have plenty of Devotes of Sigmar from WHFB times. I guess those are a good starting point? Mst of the minis I own are Empire, with a few SCE swimming around somewhere. However, taking it all together will result in waaaaay too much. I like it nice and compact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Immersturm Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, xking said: Sigmar does act out of compassion and aid against the fight against evil nature. That is why he is trying so hard. And what do you mean by his ambitions turned rather 'human'? Nevermind. This is now leaving the realm of acceptable topics. I know, I can be rather inept when it comes to explaining something, but at least some understood me, so I guess it wasn't that bad As I said, if you want to discuss it in-depth, PM me. Otherwise, I'd like to direct the topic in another direction (see above). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I find this picture very striking. You could build a human army around a group of Stormcast who venerated as angels by the humans. You could give them halos like in that art and do something like that colour scheme to contrast the humans with the stormcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorticulusTGA Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I would use the Flaggelants and celestial hurricanum bitz on Stormcast / Devoted / Freeguild. Just like this awesomest warband from Le Blog Dè Kouzes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 1 minute ago, HorticulusTGA said: I would use the Flaggelants and celestial hurricanum bitz on Stormcast / Devoted / Freeguild. Just like this awesomest warband from Le Blog Dè Kouzes Le blog De Kouzes really is the best hobby blog out there. Amazing work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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