Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[J.J]

12 minutes ago, Drofnum said:

It makes for a lot less cheesy stuff though.  Stringing a unit out 35 inches to get buffs to the guys in front was silly(Vanguard wing!) everything is going to start going to wholly within rather than the old method and i think its way better for the game even if it does add a little more measuring.

Completely agreed. This doesn't feel too bad for Idoneth with them (seemingly) being quite an elite army, plus if he's in the middle of an infantry blob he can't be shot or attacked so you can fit quite a lot of guys in a 24" diameter bubble.

[J.J]

[Accidental double post]

[Riddles]

does anyone know what idoneth deepkin thing was accidentally leaked on warhammer tv 

[mmimzie]

6 hours ago, Spiny Norman said:

 

Dude, wrong attitude. New at tournaments, right?  Every slight advantage is worth fighting for!

Now you:

Every slight....

 

Idoneth rules seem nothing but strong af to me. Probably the same procedure like every big release: Get the initial sells done, dominating the scene, after a year or so raising point cost with the new GHB....next release.

This is simply untrue. KO were a big new army, and they didn't start doing okay I'm tournament until after they were nerfed... Which is weird. 

 

Sylvaneth has never done well?? It was surprising and different, but they never did all that well. 

 

Do t was broken on release and will remain so for all time.  Lol. 

 

Just had to point this little comment out, because alot of people seem to be of this opinion when it fails to stand up to even the smallest amount of scrutiny. <. < HE just releases whst they think is balance, and those units either are under powered, over powered, or balance for what ever reason.  

[Soulsmith]

Yeah, that preview was boring. We know absolutely zero about the soulrender still, only that he has some kind of healing for Namarti. So far unimpressed with Lotann, hope he has other cool stuff going on though.

[Hoseman]

Seen yesterdays army the point of having an elite army full of animals is growing a lot on my mind. The one thing I doubt is if maybe Leviadon turtle is worth it... I know that his rule of cover is so more than interesting and to get objectives with his size could be a very good thing to have in our files but I wanna see sharks rules. 

Maybe turtle cost is not good for 1k armys to friendly short battles. And maybe blind guys (sorry I cant get with names) are not good as eels for going quik, all depends on how much they cost but the eels totally crush me... that 4+ of save (3+ with mystic shield) and if spears ones are ranged makes love them. With shark guys near I think they could manage so well.

We will see... waiting for battletome to go and to see what competitive lists could be

[Acid_Nine]

4 minutes ago, Hoseman said:

Seen yesterdays army the point of having an elite army full of animals is growing a lot on my mind. The one thing I doubt is if maybe Leviadon turtle is worth it... I know that his rule of cover is so more than interesting and to get objectives with his size could be a very good thing to have in our files but I wanna see sharks rules. 

Maybe turtle cost is not good for 1k armys to friendly short battles. And maybe blind guys (sorry I cant get with names) are not good as eels for going quik, all depends on how much they cost but the eels totally crush me... that 4+ of save (3+ with mystic shield) and if spears ones are ranged makes love them. With shark guys near I think they could manage so well.

We will see... waiting for battletome to go and to see what competitive lists could be

I'm surprised so many people are not loving the turtle, but to each their own I guess. I think it has a few good attacks it can throw in support of our other guys and can probably stay relatively protected through the fight. Plus, if the King's ability can be used on it, then getting +1 attack to every hard hitting strike is probably going to be awesome.

Also excited to see if the eel's fangs have some rend. That will make me quite the happy elf!

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Hoseman said:

Seen yesterdays army the point of having an elite army full of animals is growing a lot on my mind. The one thing I doubt is if maybe Leviadon turtle is worth it... I know that his rule of cover is so more than interesting and to get objectives with his size could be a very good thing to have in our files but I wanna see sharks rules. 

Maybe turtle cost is not good for 1k armys to friendly short battles. And maybe blind guys (sorry I cant get with names) are not good as eels for going quik, all depends on how much they cost but the eels totally crush me... that 4+ of save (3+ with mystic shield) and if spears ones are ranged makes love them. With shark guys near I think they could manage so well.

We will see... waiting for battletome to go and to see what competitive lists could be

The turtle will gety better the bigger your force. it covers a 24" circle. Which is huge, and multiplies out that +1 save pretty far.  Also he's good based on his company. The army has access to healing. Combo that with the idoneth targeting limitations, and keep it safe in melee, and it'll only really take chip damage if played well, and said chip damage could be healed. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

I'm surprised so many people are not loving the turtle, but to each their own I guess. I think it has a few good attacks it can throw in support of our other guys and can probably stay relatively protected through the fight. Plus, if the King's ability can be used on it, then getting +1 attack to every hard hitting strike is probably going to be awesome.

Also excited to see if the eel's fangs have some rend. That will make me quite the happy elf!

I probably wouldn't use the kings command ability on the turtle. +1 attack would be bigger on something like a full unit of thralls or eels. Heck that ability might be better for him to use on himself. 

[Hoseman]

I thought the shield of turtle was on 8"! Dont know where I saw it... maybe I was reading too fast. 24" circle is huge!! It all depends on how much points it costs.. I wanted to have two eidolons but maybe is too much on points... and I like the seaunicorn too, both of them... too many options but it will look so great that army... lets see if tomorrow they say something more of sharks and maybe we have a surprise? It would be so fantastic to have a kraken

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Hoseman said:

I thought the shield of turtle was on 8"! Dont know where I saw it... maybe I was reading too fast. 24" circle is huge!! It all depends on how much points it costs.. I wanted to have two eidolons but maybe is too much on points... and I like the seaunicorn too, both of them... too many options but it will look so great that army... lets see if tomorrow they say something more of sharks and maybe we have a surprise? It would be so fantastic to have a kraken

Yeah one important thing is that the edolan arnt monsters so they can benefit from the turtles cover aura (or the turn 1 armywide cover).

 

Also the edolans would work better in multiples as I think the ritual effects all edolans if u remember hearing the stream correctly. (Believe they mumble that but).  

[ledha]

6 hours ago, Acid_Nine said:

Can I just say how much I dislike the "Wholly within 12" " thing? It just seems like a whole bunch of busy work per game to worry about a guy's toes  being a centimeter out of the bubble compared to having a few bases in.

i like it. I find ugly and quite overpowered to buff a whole army because the within mean that half of the toe of one guy in range mean 40 guys in the other half of the board will be buffed.

Stormcast and Nurgle can lead to ridiculous results with Staunch Defenders and the Harbringer of Nurgle

Wholly within will prevent buff-wide armies, those ugly conga-line of models and force players to have good (and nice to the eyes) formation while forcing the leaders to be closer to the battle

[Naflem]

You know, thinking about it I'm pretty sure that the Forgotten Nightmares ability would trigger no matter who the close unit was, so if they can ally in some chaff, or summon in some skinks, any ID units would be protected because the ability just says (paraphrasing) "they're not the nearest unit" not "they're not the nearest Deepkin unit" 

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

It's been a while since I looked at the GHB; do allies have to be battleline units?  I think it'd be fun to field my Kharybdiss alongside the Idoneth.

[Soulsmith]

15 minutes ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

It's been a while since I looked at the GHB; do allies have to be battleline units?  I think it'd be fun to field my Kharybdiss alongside the Idoneth.

Nope.

[BillyOcean]

7 minutes ago, Naflem said:

You know, thinking about it I'm pretty sure that the Forgotten Nightmares ability would trigger no matter who the close unit was, so if they can ally in some chaff, or summon in some skinks, any ID units would be protected because the ability just says (paraphrasing) "they're not the nearest unit" not "they're not the nearest Deepkin unit" 

Yes allies can absolutely be used as screens with Forgotten Nightmares. The trick is finding allies that are cheap or tanky enough to fill the role. I doubt that skinks will be an option. We know that stormcast will be, so liberators could fill the roll, altho I wouldn't want to do it from a thematic standpoint. Currently I'm wondering if Corsairs might be a nice compromise, at 80pts for 10 with a 5+ save, rerolling 1s vs shooting. 

[Hoseman]

And if they are next to turtle do they got the +1 to save too? Or they could have mystic shield to go first. Or maybe both? 

Its interesting to find a cheap unit with a good number of minis to go first. As you said liberators could work but for 20 less points that corsairs sounds interesting...

[Acid_Nine]

12 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

Yes allies can absolutely be used as screens with Forgotten Nightmares. The trick is finding allies that are cheap or tanky enough to fill the role. I doubt that skinks will be an option. We know that stormcast will be, so liberators could fill the roll, altho I wouldn't want to do it from a thematic standpoint. Currently I'm wondering if Corsairs might be a nice compromise, at 80pts for 10 with a 5+ save, rerolling 1s vs shooting. 

I'm thinking aetherwings or gryphounds, as they are cheap enough to die and fast enough to keep up, and the aetherwings can provide a counter charging attack due to the inbuilt rules (I think)

[Hoseman]

Eternal guard of wanderers. 80 points 10 minis. Reroll 1 and reroll 1 and 2 in cover, so next to turtle they got 4+ reroll 1 and 2... they dont hurt but could make the line

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

25 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

Yes allies can absolutely be used as screens with Forgotten Nightmares. The trick is finding allies that are cheap or tanky enough to fill the role. I doubt that skinks will be an option. We know that stormcast will be, so liberators could fill the roll, altho I wouldn't want to do it from a thematic standpoint. Currently I'm wondering if Corsairs might be a nice compromise, at 80pts for 10 with a 5+ save, rerolling 1s vs shooting. 

This was what I was thinking, too.  For one thing, I have a pretty big collection of corsairs already (and dreadspears, but I'm not as convinced they may be allies the way I am with Scourge Privateers).

[Soulsmith]

The real question though is who will they get as allies. The only certainty is stormcast.

[Chikout]

7 hours ago, Riddles said:

does anyone know what idoneth deepkin thing was accidentally leaked on warhammer tv 

Nothing really. Jeremy said he had seen a cool map which is not in the Idoneth book, so it is probably from the upcoming magic supplement or the new starter set. 

Someone asked about more monsters and they just said 'no comment'.

[Acid_Nine]

So taking bets on tommorow's warhammer community preview?

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

Just now, Acid_Nine said:

So taking bets on tommorow's warhammer community preview?

Well, they've been focusing on the castes and covered them all so maybe enclaves?

[WoollyMammoth]

7 hours ago, mmimzie said:

This is simply untrue. KO were a big new army, and they didn't start doing okay I'm tournament until after they were nerfed... Which is weird. 

Sylvaneth has never done well?? It was surprising and different, but they never did all that well. 

Do t was broken on release and will remain so for all time.  Lol. 

Just had to point this little comment out, because alot of people seem to be of this opinion when it fails to stand up to even the smallest amount of scrutiny. <. < HE just releases whst they think is balance, and those units either are under powered, over powered, or balance for what ever reason.  

This post shows a lack of understanding of the meta. That's fine, not everyone is a tournament player, but you can't make comments about the evolution of the meta if you weren't in it and watching it closely throughout the Age of Sigmar.

Firstly, I'll address Sylvaneth; Sylvaneth sold like absolute hotcakes after their release. This is not necessarily because of strong rules. It was the first tome that pivoted to the new allegiance stuff including spell lores. Also the treelord kit is gorgeous and the aesthetic really appealed to many people (moreso than naked mohawk dwarves...). It has been so far also the most appealing army to female players - I've seen at least 5, and my wife told me her favorite model was my Treelord.

Not to say that the rules were strong .. but yeah they were. When it came out it had tools nobody else did. It presented one drop armies to exploit deployment. The forests absolutely ruined peoples lives. It was even more elite than Stormcast at a time when the game was still hung up on all spells being some form of D3 mortals. Simply put, the meta just didn't have the mortals to keep up with Sylvaneth armies. Then the "21 Kurnoth hunters" mixed order lists started to show up at the top of every tournament list. Sylvaneth was the hot ticket even up until LVO2017, where  they were the most common army at the tournemnt. Unfortunately a week later the Skyfires were released, Tzeentch took over the meta where it still exists today. Later in the second GH they tried to move the points around, lowering everything while increasing Kurnoth which I expected to make a bigger impact but it just hasn't; Tzeentch continues to keep Sylvaneth down. 

Now let's talk about KO .. they were dropped into the meta as a shooting army while Kunnin Rukk and Skyfires were dominant. Unfortunately their rules were a bit all over the place and it took some time for people to figure them out and get the models ready. When they first launched they were absolutely brutal. Just broken brutality. Just as people figured this out, the GH2017 dropped along with heavy nerfs. Luckily, the whole meta (other than tzeentch) came down hard after GH2017 so people figured out the clown car list which has been breaking the top 10 in many tournaments. That being said its important to note that this list could have been done BETTER before the nerfs, so saying they are doing better after the nerfs is silly. It just takes time for people to figure out how to best play their favorite armies competitively.

To be clear, I'm not trying to argue for @Spiny Norman. I think that GW wants all the armies to be good. If all the armies are good, then one person is likely to buy more than one army. If an army is bad, then it appeals to less people and therefore they sell less of it. But lets say you are like me and just not into Tzeentch; making them good or bad is not going to encourage me to start that army. But say I really like BCR, but the army is really bad in the meta, which deters me from starting it. If they suddenly made BCR very good, then I might start them as a new army, etc. The longer BCR are good, the longer I play them, the more I want, the more I buy more models and test them out. 

I think their goal is to make all armies equally good, with different unique fun and thematic play styles. Sure, they may error on the side of making things more powerful than less powerful at first, but that is because they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot and release an army that is maddeningly bad and watch the sales tank. But at the same time, they are getting really good at play testing before release. DoK for example - they talked about some tweaks they made for them, and they clearly nerfed the face off Blood Stalkers for fear of what might happen if Morathi lets them shoot twice - and at launch they are borderline unplayable at their points.

Its going to be very hard to judge Idoneth because they are a very new and unique army. If it sounds like they have a lot of power, but this is how all elf/aeldar armies operate. Lots of power but very difficult to play correctly. Idoneth appear to be a mixture of several things. They kind of have a high elf look to them and they are likely to have a lot of synergy and power like High Elves. They also appear to have some death themes with some control spells like the new death lore. Their Calvary remind me of dark elf cold ones - insanely hard to kill in combat. They also have a battle round table which is common for dark elves/Drukhari (but different in that it is not cumulative). The ship ties in the 6++ common to dark elves as well, with it being terrain that causes mortals which is like Nurgle, though I think they are just trying to make terrain features a part of more armies. 

Is it going to be crazy strong and break the meta? Probably not. It's not likely going to displace changehost on it's own. Its may damper KO and Kunnin Rukk lists with its new shooting rules, but its impossible to predict. If it's like most elves, it will be a powerhouse as long as everything goes exactly according to plan, but fall apart very quickly if mistakes are made.
 

[BillyOcean]

2 hours ago, Hoseman said:

Eternal guard of wanderers. 80 points 10 minis. Reroll 1 and reroll 1 and 2 in cover, so next to turtle they got 4+ reroll 1 and 2... they dont hurt but could make the line

Yeah that would be great, if Wanderers are allies. I'm currently working under the assumption that it will be Stormcast, DoK and Scourge Privateers, and maybe Darkling Covens. But who knows. Wanderers might actually make sense, with both being mysterious traveler races. I'm hoping the Pitched Battle profile page will leak soon, as it did for DoK the week before.