Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[Pompe]

Anyone thought about the Tidecaster-Fuethán combo? 

Turn 1: Run and charge/shoot
Turn 2: Fight first
Turn 3: Run and charge/shoot
Turn 4: Cover
Turn 5: Run and charge

The tax would be 3x140 Reavers or Thralls and 100 points for the Tidecaster. The enclave/Fuethán goes rather well with reavers getting a longer range.

[muggins]

1 hour ago, corsairjoe said:

Question regarding Thralls. Is it possible to build them with just swords/glaives? Not a huge fan of the axe bits.

If you look at the sprues here: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Namarti-Thralls-2018

I count nine swords, but maybe I mis-counted. There are certain models that it seems like you can only build one way - so I'm not sure you could do this.

[Amradiel]

Would Melusai Blood sisters be good allies?

[whispersofblood]

2 hours ago, Pompe said:

Anyone thought about the Tidecaster-Fuethán combo? 

Turn 1: Run and charge/shoot
Turn 2: Fight first
Turn 3: Run and charge/shoot
Turn 4: Cover
Turn 5: Run and charge

The tax would be 3x140 Reavers or Thralls and 100 points for the Tidecaster. The enclave/Fuethán goes rather well with reavers getting a longer range.

This is what I was describing when I posted about Fuethan.

Reavers are a good battleline, as they provide a ton of utility. They are also buffed with the Fuethan enclave rules. 

I think taking eels as your only unit is asking for trouble in claiming objectives as the turns go on. Enough armies do persistent mortal wounds that you are going to be losing eels every turn, in combat or not. 

14" run and charge

Steed of Tides 

A ton of ways to basically guarantee combats early, often, where and when you decide. Retreat and charge, means you are either charging turn 2, grinding in turn 3 and charging in turn 4. Which I don't think the army has the wounds for. Or Charging turn 3 which means you have been doing almost no significant damage for 2 turns. 

Flipping the chart, with Fuethan gives you 3 turns of effective combat starting on the first turn, and a better grind in turn 2. 
 

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Enough armies do persistent mortal wounds that you are going to be losing eels every turn, in combat or not. 

What???  This is not the first time I've heard this eels have 4 wounds a pop and you get 3 a choice... even at 160pts for 3. That's  still more wound/pts than reevers making them better for mortal wounds.  Not to mention they move 14" to camo on objectives.

 

Not to mention we have access to allies that can put out straight up better shooting for less and also be or that make better objective grabbers like heartrenders. If you really want it to be battle line darkshard have better long range shooting damage output. 

 

I don't think your wrong that we'll be mixing it up early. We have tons of ways to turn 1 charge. Which means flow tide is almost completely useless no matter what turn you have it for. 

 

For long range support I think tide caster and other hero's can baby sit your back field objective about as well as reapers will. 

 

For instance steed of tides only works on characters that can be used to drop your hero's onto objects as need be. They provide the same range with arcane middles and will do about as much average damage to a unit. If you want alittle more range you could take coral maelstrom on one.  They definitly aren't as durable, but they do ignore the first wound coming there way that does decently against mortal wounds, and speaking of those mortal wound they extra unbind can go a long way in protecting you from spell based mortal woulds, while the -1 to hit spell can reduce or negate most none spell based mortal wounds. 

 

That's my thoughts. I was original on the fuathan band wagon if you go back like 5 or 6 pages. However, after my play testing I much prefer ionrach, dhom-hann and Nautilar. Also fuathan can be good and maybe I'm blind to it. It just doesn't feel as impactful as the others can be. 

[Austin]

7 hours ago, corsairjoe said:

Question regarding Thralls. Is it possible to build them with just swords/glaives? Not a huge fan of the axe bits.

 

6 hours ago, muggins said:

If you look at the sprues here: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Namarti-Thralls-2018

I count nine swords, but maybe I mis-counted. There are certain models that it seems like you can only build one way - so I'm not sure you could do this.

Three models are mandatory axers.

[whispersofblood]

Objectives aren't decided on point for wound efficiency. Liberators are more efficient than reavers but you still get your objective scorched from under you. I've seen enough games lost to 10 skinks being dropped and a charge to know you need bodies not necessarily wounds . 

Persistent wound dmg on low model count, high wound models is worse than on low wound models. Yes eels are resistant to losing offence, but its makes them extremely fragile as models to take or hold an objective with. Taking 2s3 mortal wounds on a 10 man unit still leaves them above 5 generally. The same 2d3 drops eels from a not taking that objective 3 to a no chance in hell 2, to watch your objective get scorched by 5 heartrenders/lifetakers.

That is before you consider the strength of 20 reavers and a couple of gryphhounds in the changehost matchup. 

[mmimzie]

30 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Objectives aren't decided on point for wound efficiency. Liberators are more efficient than reavers but you still get your objective scorched from under you. I've seen enough games lost to 10 skinks being dropped and a charge to know you need bodies not necessarily wounds . 

Persistent wound dmg on low model count, high wound models is worse than on low wound models. Yes eels are resistant to losing offence, but its makes them extremely fragile as models to take or hold an objective with. Taking 2s3 mortal wounds on a 10 man unit still leaves them above 5 generally. The same 2d3 drops eels from a not taking that objective 3 to a no chance in hell 2, to watch your objective get scorched by 5 heartrenders/lifetakers.

That is before you consider the strength of 20 reavers and a couple of gryphhounds in the changehost matchup. 

They really aren't all that good with a gryphhound as they actualy reduce the range of thier attack. So the reaver actualy have to be closer than the hound <.<...  or you very lack luster shooting.  Against change host they just set up right out side your bubble, and then walk forward, or if your more than 8" they set up closer and take the subpar shooting. 

The wound efficiency was a specific reply to the specific quote to your post. Which is why i went out of my way to only quote that little bit. In that mortal wounds wouldn't kill eels any faster than it wound reavers?? In fact they are the best mortal wound tanks in the army out the box. IF mortal wounds is part of the reason not to take eels... thats not making a case for the rest of the army <.<.... 

The reavers get pulled off the objective by any change host army.  They die in melee to horrors <.<...  Who will quickly out number said reavers.  As a change host player, i've seen glade guard/darkshards/etc with hounds before... and let me tell you that don't scare me. Some times even i just let them shoot me depending on the unit,  and in that reguard reavers are strickly worse than the other options available to you. 

In your own heart render example. if said heart renders are taking your objective odds are they didn't teleport in so the hound doesn't matter, and they'll kill another few of your reavers and just walk onto the objective.  In fact the heart renders shooting and then charging the reaver could just take the objective all on there own <.< with out mortal wounds, and for almost half the pts.. 

[DantePQ]

You're missing the point of soaking up wounds, low count multi wound models lose a lot of effectiveness with loses. 

Take 30 Thralls vs 6 Morssar - you could lose 16 Thralls and unit is still very effective - in combat, to take objective etc you lose 4 eels and you can't do much , sure there is Bravery issue etc but even over the course of the whole game, also Thralls will be usually near some kind of Bravery buff (Inspiring Presence, Aspect of the Sea),Eeels won't be so bascially losing 2 with their bravery is risky, as they lose whole 4W models to Bravery - and that's huge problem with units o 9 of eels. 

Heartrenders are cool but they don't take objectives unless you roll 4+, Reavers have 8'' move and some cool mechanic and could take objectives as well. 

Also nobody will focus mortal wounds  on Reavers when there are Eeels flying around. 

I have seen many times how ID will charge first turn and it's true they will charge - screens and they they will get counter charged, that's why alpha strike armies doesn't really work (KO works but it's different animal) ID don't have tools to clear screens with limited firepower and offensive magic - that's why it's easy to feed them chaff, it is challenging army to play for sure but it's down to Thralls to produce enough damage output as I'd always take 30 Thralls before 6 Morssar. 

Being very vulnerable to mortal wounds is a huge problem as maybe not every army is Changehost but there are armies who have access to mortal wounds, but what's challenging is that ID are also very vulnerable to multi attacks units, I've run some math and 10 witches with knives are amazing against Deepkin as apart from Ishlean they really do a whole lot of harm to Morssar or Thralls. 

Anyway I am looking forward to play them my army with Volturnos, 60 Thralls and Reavers is taking shape   

[Cookiez]

Played second game yesterday, against KO clown car. My friend is new to the army but has more than 10 years of competitive experience so I think it kind of evens. As I thought, Kharadrons have NO chance at all with the fishes, sorry my bearded friends. He started, because we both thought that the 3+ ignore rend is better than 2+ ignore rend and the possible double turn, landed the ironclad, unpacked, fired the salvos... And took down 2 eels... Ok, that's against the math and I was rolling like god, I know, I know. Grapnels, charges, he took down the Eidolon (here I rolled rather poorly on the other hand, I had 4 up save and still he died) and Tidecaster, but I feel they kind of don't matter with the fragility of KO. In my turn I killed the rest of the balloons with my whole army, Venator sniped the Khemist, Ishlaen blocked the shooting and took off some Arkanauts. Roll off. I won and we shook hands.

The all in strategy of a clown car won't work here, I think KO can put a fight only when they stay at max distance and don't get double turned.

Tomorrow I have a small tournament, really looking forward to it and I will definitely post some thoughts after 3 more games.

[Knight of Ruin]

Cprrect me if i am wrong, but objectives are numbers of models within x range of objectives often enough. Seeminhly make a case for thralls.

If the objective is near a boardedge or deployment zone i can see thralls and or reavers being s good choice. 

However eels have 2 things going for them. Their movement is foremost. They can get to objectives fast. Granted their fly is more important the more terrain you use. I like using terrain thus flying units appeal more to me (also why i would play briomdar if i take namarti).

The second thing is footprint. From the pictures in the battletome the eels have a huge footprint. So rather then getting more models nesr the objective ourselves, we can prevent enemy models getting near. Atleast that is how i always my blight kings, who do less damage, have slightly more wounds and far less movement.

As we saw earlier a 6 man squad of morrsarr can take out horde screens om the charge (depending a bit on the enemy ofcourse). 

Yes i am in favour of eels. Thralls are cool too... But their low bravery, low save, lower movement.. Means they will be reduced in unit size by the time they get to an objective. And then they still gotta fight.

Eels will quite likely arrive at full stenght at an objective..

[DantePQ]

Eels are more supsect to Bravery issue then Thralls - losing two could be fatal, as usually they won't be in range for any kind of bravery buff, also I will be using Briomdar for my Thralls + Reaver army and leave Morrsarr out. 

Also in majority of cases number of models is more important to hold objective - that's why Eeels are horrible at this role.  

Fact that Morrsarr can take out screens on charge is nothing special - they should do that, problem is that after charge and with low bravery they are usually toasted almost against everything. Blight Knights are cool, but there is a difference between eels and Blightknights - Blight Knights are super tanky so they can tank on objective better then eels, Ishalean can do this as well but not Morrsar who are quite bad unless they charge.  

 

[Cookiez]

You are theorycrafting. From my experience Morrsarr are a key unit to do fast surgical strikes at important enemy units and/or objectives and they should not be targeted by shooting and attacked back by enemy with their high movement capabilities. I'll say it once again - Thralls have their role and Morrsarr have their role and both have a different place on the battlefield.

[syph0n]

I'm really looking forward to seeing Idoneth Deepkin armies evolve. I'm hoping that there are multiple, successful competitive ways to play. A lot of people enjoy writing highly competitive lists, but it's already nice to see people questioning the utility of units versus the other - it might mean we get more diverse armies rather than very simple 'all eel' or 'all thrall' lists which I get the impression this game can be like at times. 

I'm planning on a list based on models I really like - Volturnos (though customised - use the rules, alter the model, change the name), AoSea (but use the Storm head, so much "darker"), Soulscryer, proxy something for the Tidecaster (or swap the terrible head), eels, the turtles and gotta use the Namarti in some form or other. Maybe Reavers in a Briomdar enclave? Eventually I'll have some blocks of Thralls to use the Mor'phann rules. It's a really fun looking army. 

[Kugane]

1 hour ago, syph0n said:

I'm really looking forward to seeing Idoneth Deepkin armies evolve. I'm hoping that there are multiple, successful competitive ways to play. A lot of people enjoy writing highly competitive lists, but it's already nice to see people questioning the utility of units versus the other - it might mean we get more diverse armies rather than very simple 'all eel' or 'all thrall' lists which I get the impression this game can be like at times. 

I'm planning on a list based on models I really like - Volturnos (though customised - use the rules, alter the model, change the name), AoSea (but use the Storm head, so much "darker"), Soulscryer, proxy something for the Tidecaster (or swap the terrible head), eels, the turtles and gotta use the Namarti in some form or other. Maybe Reavers in a Briomdar enclave? Eventually I'll have some blocks of Thralls to use the Mor'phann rules. It's a really fun looking army. 

Sounds really fun :), but from what I can tell you are going to run into lack of points if you want to run all of that at 2000 points though. If you want to take aspect of the sea, the turtle, volturnos, a tidecaster, a soulscryer and a battalion, you'll be around 1500 points without even considering the battleline units. So keep that into consideration before you end up spending a high ammount of money on units you may not have the points for to field

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, DantePQ said:

ake 30 Thralls vs 6 Morssar - you could lose 16 Thralls and unit is still very effective - in combat, to take objective etc you lose 4 eels and you can't do much ,

Can we not compare 420 pts to 320 pts <.<.  Lol if i'm gonna get teased for the comparison, i'll tease back for literally the same pts difference comparison <.< Talk about setting a bar high.(I'm dumb)  Also why not just bring sword masters, a little more per block, but they are more durable to shooting, and can get two ranks of attacks in. Swordmasters would love cover from ionrach geting them a 3+ rerollable for the first turn against shooting.  Eternal guard on the discount could also work waiting for a rescue from some kindly eels. 

 

Also on those w6 dead thralls with out being inspired your also gonna drop atleast 10 from battle shock with out extra love. 

2 hours ago, Cookiez said:

You are theorycrafting. From my experience Morrsarr are a key unit to do fast surgical strikes at important enemy units and/or objectives and they should not be targeted by shooting and attacked back by enemy with their high movement capabilities. I'll say it once again - Thralls have their role and Morrsarr have their role and both have a different place on the battlefield.

Sure every unit has a whole, that said how are thralls better objective holders than the units from our pull of allies?? Maybe if we support our thralsl with morrphan and soul renders than we can start to build up a good horde, but now they aren't really just objective grabbers they quickly start to just become our army. Similarly, Morrsarr guard don't want to go shooting up the table alone because as @DantePQ says they'll get chewed up in the resulting counter charge. So, you definitly want some islaen guard to support them, and then maybe someone to give them mystic shield, a cover buff for later would also be really helpful, and again now we have another army making itself. 

Then on holding objectives the thing most likely to get on your objectives are models that teleport behind you, Change host suprizingly can't do this so easily if your already in thier face.  as summoning is hard to do when enemy models are too close to your casters.  So they need to rely on swaping to get to you objectives. Out side of that the best back field objective grabbing enemy unit is the Heartrenders, who teleport behind you and shoot you up and move into range of your objective.  But for anything else the boats help. They are a powerful tool in creating a massive almost 24" wall accross the table that really breaks up enemy movement. That and coupled with the wing clip ritual can really keep your objectives safe for a turn or two, no matter what you bring. 

[syph0n]

31 minutes ago, Kugane said:

Sounds really fun :), but from what I can tell you are going to run into lack of points if you want to run all of that at 2000 points though. If you want to take aspect of the sea, the turtle, volturnos, a tidecaster, a soulscryer and a battalion, you'll be around 1500 points without even considering the battleline units. So keep that into consideration before you end up spending a high ammount of money on units you may not have the points for to field

Yes, that's absolutely true. I'd probably drop the turtle initially for more eels or Namarti, but I'm typically drawn to very small armies because it's about all I'm motivated to paint! However, objectives need to be taken... 

[Cookiez]

2 minutes ago, syph0n said:

Yes, that's absolutely true. I'd probably drop the turtle initially for more eels or Namarti, but I'm typically drawn to very small armies because it's about all I'm motivated to paint! However, objectives need to be taken... 

I yet have to dive more into the least discovered part of the tactics, but I believe you can also take the highly defensive path with Leviadon or cover spell and Nautilar enclave. Now everyone is focusing the highly aggressive playstyle, which is the the most obvious one, but I also think the Nurgle-like army has a place in objective based game. For now I think you have to choose between the Leviadon and Eidolon and the choice in kinda nobrainer, sadly.

[To1v1]

30 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Can we not compare 420 pts to 320 pts

360 for 30 thralls

[mmimzie]

23 minutes ago, To1v1 said:

360 for 30 thralls

Your right they get that max size discount. I buy before your wisdom 

[To1v1]

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach

Leaders
Akhelian King (240)
- General
- Trait: Emissary of the Deep Places 
- Artefact: Bio-shock Shell 
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Tide of Fear
Isharann Tidecaster (100)
- Lore of the Deeps: Steed of Tides

Battleline
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (140)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
3 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (160)
20 x Namarti Thralls (280)

Units
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
- Allies
10 x Namarti Reavers (140)

Behemoths
Akhelian Leviadon (380)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 160 / 400
Wounds: 121
 

Just mucking about with lists.

[Arka29]

Does anyone have any ideas for converting the Ahkelian King to a Queen? I've thought about using parts of Yvraine.

[Knight of Ruin]

3 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Eels are more supsect to Bravery issue then Thralls - losing two could be fatal, as usually they won't be in range for any kind of bravery buff, also I will be using Briomdar for my Thralls + Reaver army and leave Morrsarr out. 

Also in majority of cases number of models is more important to hold objective - that's why Eeels are horrible at this role.  

Fact that Morrsarr can take out screens on charge is nothing special - they should do that, problem is that after charge and with low bravery they are usually toasted almost against everything. Blight Knights are cool, but there is a difference between eels and Blightknights - Blight Knights are super tanky so they can tank on objective better then eels, Ishalean can do this as well but not Morrsar who are quite bad unless they charge.  

 

You are right ofc. But you seem to forget that thralls have to take battleshock faster then eels. Eels have to take 4 wounds before battleshock even factors in. Thralls just 1.

You could say, but my thralls are inspired. So can the eels be. 

You could say the tralls csn regain models.. Sure but that just compensates for their increased vulnerability to pretty much every weapon in the game.

Sure you could say that eels are more vulnerable to mortal wunds than thralls. But lets think about this. Idoneth have a lot of -1 to hit spells and abilities, thereby reducing the majority of potential mortal wounds from not-magic. The rest can be mitigated by forgotton nightmares. 

 

But the same goes for thralls.. However thralls (and reavers) i feel are a lot more dependant on their support. Which can be snipef by magicsl mortal wounds. Eels are far less so. They like the reroll 1s to hit from the king, but an enclave can compensate there. 

 

What i am getting at is that i do not think that morrsarr are an invalid option. They have their place, just like thralls and reavers do. They both have their pro's and con's, and they both make an inpact on your playstyle. And when build aroind both can provide a powerful bonus to your army. 

 

 

[Siegfried VII]

I just wanted to throw it out there that our special dice are unreadable...

[Circus of Paint]

36 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I just wanted to throw it out there that our special dice are unreadable...

To be fair, there’s a difference between “harder to read than standardised dice designs” and “unreadable”.

Doesn’t matter to me anyway, mine will most likely stay on the shelf with the rest of my dice collection.