What do you think it will take for GW to fix summoning in Matched Play?

[Miller]

I've been thinking a bit about summoning in AoS Matched Play; why it is the way it is and what the downstream effects may have been. Two specific things brought this to mind, first a conversation on the Ring of Immortality and then the discussion on Summoning in Path to Glory. It seems to me that the (in my opinion) poor way that AoS was originally released is responsible for summoning being mostly useless and Death being behind the power curve in Matched Play.

AoS on release was the Wild West - it was a game that required players to find a semblance of balance for themselves. I don't want to get into the discussion on if this is a reasonable expectation or not, I think time has shown that many people want something different. The creation of GHB and matched play was an attempt to placate this, and (again my opinion) did a reasonably good job of it. However GW either couldn't or wouldn't go back to re-write the Warscrolls that were designed without much thought to organized balance. Any Warscroll that had summoning or a similar ability was a huge offender - how do you balance units that can potentially add models or units to the table? If the open or narrative play summon power level was wide open, the rules for it in matched play basically slammed it shut. 

Doing this instead of re-writing the warscrolls to a power level somewhere in between has had some serious negative consequences on Death Alliance. Summoning abilities that are figured into unit point values are mostly without use; there are very few instances where the ability to summon a unit is worth the same points cost as having that unit from the start of the game. Particularly so when you consider the chance that the summon will fail or the summoning unit will be removed from the game before using the ability. Some artifacts, alliance abilities, command traits, and battalions are useless or of very low value as a result. I think this is at least partially responsible for Death being generally the weakest Grand Alliance in competitive play, and has collateral damage on our units in related games such as skirmish and Path to Glory. In the former case summoning is just outright removed from the game, and in the latter it is so potentially overpowered that you go back to situation of having to figure out how much to use your available abilities without being a ******. I also don't really want to restart the topic of if this is reasonable -  personally I find having to decide when it's fair to use my available abilities reduces my enjoyment of the game.

I haven't been playing AoS for too long and I've only recently switched to Death, but I'm not aware of GW ever confessing to there being a problem with summoning in the game system. Which finally brings me around to my actual discussion topic; does GW see a problem here? If not what can we do to get them to see it, and if they do agree there is a problem what can we do to encourage them to fix it?

[BaldoBeardo]

In matched play, summoning is now a toolbox tactic, a risk vs. reward mechanism that allows you to edit your army mid-game. You don't have to use it.
Skirmish & PtG aren't matched play, they are by their nature unbalanced, people shouldn't be playing these expecting a 'fair' game.
Death are behind the curve purely because they are a summoning-based faction that has had no rework since the nature of summoning changed.
Summoning isn't broken or in need of fixing.

The issue here isn't summoning, it's GW's absolute, mystifying and total aversion to configuration control in their products - and that horse bolted a loooong time ago.


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[deynon]

The ring FAQ screwed up a lot of things, but still summoning is one of the best tactics that there are.

 

Personally I'd never play a Death Army without points put aside to summoning something. Sincerely I find the summoning one of the best way to modify and adapt the game. 

Withput point abput summoning you'd have really an instoppabòe mess. Death, Chaos and Seraphons would summon without stopping causing a big unbaòance. It would blow up things. Summoning requirong points it's also a way to calibrate things cause in sich a way the modeòs who can summon has to pay attention to what they do and tye player itself has to pay close attention to its own options since the roosting. 

 

Uf we are talking about skirmish otèr campaign... beh there are like so. A campaign doesn't need to be fair cause it evolves differently each time and has a coordinator. 

[Squirrelmaster]

Summoning is viable as-is, I wouldn't call it "broken", but there are a few places where I think it could be improved:

1. Summoning under-strength/random-sized units - a points-per-model cost would be great, so if I summon 2 dryads I don't pay for 10.
2. Self-resurrection (like the Ring of Immortality) should always be built into the cost of the model (and therefore "free") imo. The ring was a bit OP, but there are other ways to tone it down without making it as unusable as it is now. While we're on the subject, I think a self-resurrected general should retain general status and command abilities/traits.
3. If possible, I'd like to see an end to daisy-chaining. I think you'd have to go through and re-word the existing warscrolls, but if a summoned unit had to be entirely within X inches of the caster, instead of only the first model being within X inches, that would fit the feel of the game better to me. Maybe increase the ranges of these spells to balance that.
4. I'd like to see a way around the whole "if all your wizards die, your reinforcement points are wasted" deal - it's just too harsh imo. I can think of a whole bunch of ways to do this, but none of them are really simple. It seems like something that could be built into the different scenarios maybe.

As for Death being under-powered, I think that's mainly just because they haven't really had any battletomes (Flesheater Courts notwithstanding). It's possible GW over-estimated the power of summoning and over-pointed several Death units as a result, but I wouldn't say that's a problem with the summoning rules per se.

[deynon]

30 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Summoning is viable as-is, I wouldn't call it "broken", but there are a few places where I think it could be improved:

1. Summoning under-strength/random-sized units - a points-per-model cost would be great, so if I summon 2 dryads I don't pay for 10.
2. Self-resurrection (like the Ring of Immortality) should always be built into the cost of the model (and therefore "free") imo. The ring was a bit OP, but there are other ways to tone it down without making it as unusable as it is now. While we're on the subject, I think a self-resurrected general should retain general status and command abilities/traits.
3. If possible, I'd like to see an end to daisy-chaining. I think you'd have to go through and re-word the existing warscrolls, but if a summoned unit had to be entirely within X inches of the caster, instead of only the first model being within X inches, that would fit the feel of the game better to me. Maybe increase the ranges of these spells to balance that.
4. I'd like to see a way around the whole "if all your wizards die, your reinforcement points are wasted" deal - it's just too harsh imo. I can think of a whole bunch of ways to do this, but none of them are really simple. It seems like something that could be built into the different scenarios maybe.

As for Death being under-powered, I think that's mainly just because they haven't really had any battletomes (Flesheater Courts notwithstanding). It's possible GW over-estimated the power of summoning and over-pointed several Death units as a result, but I wouldn't say that's a problem with the summoning rules per se.

1) such thing as it us AoS now it's not possiblecause the unitsarein block
2) I totally agree, but the priblem is that you risked to overorize when you didn't give the ring, and even thinking about giving poits to the ring it would have to be done based on the wounds of the model itself. Anyway about models who come ack by themselves it should really be like you said.

3) I agree even if combined with the forced eing far from the enemy reduce some trick usableabout it. And anyway some summoning say thatyou have the models to bein the range of the spell anyway.

4) here I don't agree, if you use summoning you have to e consciousof the risks itself. Therearenot only mages who can summon so create a rooster thought about using those points in different ways is part of the thoughtsof the player itself

 

I don't find Death underpiwered, but surely I'd like another Attletome at least. Likely TheGk2017 will bring some refreshing wind

 

[someone2040]

Here's my opinion on things:

If you want to fix summoning, and keep it in 'theme' of bolstering your army, here's what I think would need to happen.

Everything that's not a 'spell' that summons, should be pointed appropriately into the warscroll. If a Phoenix can come back, it should be in the warscroll points, not in reinforcement points. That way you cause a true split between things that 'summon' and things that just replace or revive a model.

Now onto magic.

Unbinding needs to be more impactful on the game to allow summoning. In previous editions of Warhammer, you could pool your dice to stop a critical spell, or save your dispel scroll. We don't have those mechanics in AoS. Unbinding is critically underwhelming, as you're generally never in range.

Overall, there needs to be more ways to stop spells. For summoning, it probably means Unbind range needs to be unlimited to stop first turn summons. It also might mean that if you have multiple wizards in unbind range, you can choose to have them help out and get +1 to dispel for each wizard that helps (But then, they sacrifice the ability to unbind a spell separately). This means you can pool your resources to stop a critical spell.

 

Then, you need to make summoning definitely harder. Getting stuff for 'free' should definitely take a pool of your resources that you aren't doing anything else with. If you're summoning Skeletons, you're not putting some buff somewhere else. You probably shouldn't be able to summon anything harder than a Black Knight in Matched Play. Morghasts don't just lie around all over the world, so why can you summon them no matter where you are? So there needs to be less options on what you can summon, and increase the cost of summoning.

 

Then perhaps, you need to restrict who can summon. If you have 3 spellcasters, first turn, you're probably just gonna try to summon 3 units for free stuff. So this needs to be restricted somehow. Perhaps, a Rule of 1 could be useful here. You could perhaps state you can only attempt to cast a spell that summons a unit once per turn.

 

Even after all of that, summoning might still be too powerful. Quite often with spell ranges, especially early on, you've got nothing better to do than try and summon something because your offensive/debuff spells aren't in range. This is definitely a fault of the fact that spellcasting takes place before movement. But basically, if you don't have to weigh up - do I try a risky summon spell or do I just blast a unit with Arcane Bolt, it makes it hard to balance things appropriately.

Also, casters that increase their casting power, can cast multiple spells like Nagash would definitely needs to go up. As Nagash would likely be getting a free unit every turn.

 

Overall, I get the feeling it's a horse that's already bolted though. I don't think GW are gonna change their approach on summoning any time soon. They don't want to see to make large changes to the core rules or warscrolls (Which, all of the above would be making changes to core rules or warscrolls).

[Mohojoe]

On the eve of GHB2 it's a tough discussion to have. The core rules could be changing as could warscrolls.
I think one of the most simple fixes would be to have summoning points costs that fit the unit you have. Purely hypothetically for the debate let's say half the cost of a standard unit in your army and your reinforcement points are capped at 500 points. Effectively giving you 2500 points of units in a 2000 point game.
Another way could be to place things you can summon into tiers. 3 tiers of units and you need the corresponding amount of casters within 18" of one another to summon that unit.

For example. If you were to summon Archai, they would be tier 2, requiring you to have two casters within 18" and the unit must come on the board within that bubble.

My brother has 6000 points of death and plays them exclusively but always bemoans the lacklustre summoning rules. Summoning feels incredibly underwhelming and gimmicky. At this point it feels like it needs to have a strong rework or be removed as it really is a hangover from a previous edition that doesn't add enough to be fun.




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[Oppenheimer]

My opinion has been the units you can summon is too broad. In 8e you could summon a handful of zombies or skeletons using the lore of vampires without needing reinforcement points and no one complained. But, the fact that you can now summon terrorgheists, morghasts etc made too powerful.

If summoning was just restricted to small underpowered units that were just a buffer or scenario holders with no real fighting capability it would be a lot better. Also, magic was unreliable in 8e. Having it able to be dispelled at any range or making the to cast rolls 8 for zombies and something like 9 for deamons would help that out too.

[deynon]

Summoning how canbe overpowered? 

 

You summon till having the same points as the opponents.You play undertill you don't summoning you can adapt the strategy to youroppponent and each GA can do it. You have only to do suche a thing. So there can't be such a problem ad it is now.

[Lord Veshnakar]

A lot of the problem with summoning is the mindset from previous editions of WHF, that as a player that is summoning you somehow deserve more points than your opponent. Maybe reduce the casting values for the summoning spells themselves to mitigate the difficulty of summoning units but I definitely think summoning pool should stay exactly as is though.

Summoning in the past was to account for the fact that undead crumbled and units like Skeletons/Zombies weren't really that great in combat. Undead units aren't subpar anymore. Skeletons, and to a lesser extent zombies, can completely wreck now. And wait until people see the Massive Regiments rules, and how absurd it makes 40 strong Skeleton units. 

[ReynakZhen]

IMO, the only thing that is needed is to make the death allegiance mainstay units, ie: zombies,skeletons,ghouls easier to summon enmass. Make is so a unit of 10 can be summoned on say a 4+, a unit of 20 on a 9+ and a unit of 40 on a 12+

[Jamopower]

3 hours ago, Lord Veshnakar said:

A lot of the problem with summoning is the mindset from previous editions of WHF, that as a player that is summoning you somehow deserve more points than your opponent. Maybe reduce the casting values for the summoning spells themselves to mitigate the difficulty of summoning units but I definitely think summoning pool should stay exactly as is though.

Summoning in the past was to account for the fact that undead crumbled and units like Skeletons/Zombies weren't really that great in combat. Undead units aren't subpar anymore. Skeletons, and to a lesser extent zombies, can completely wreck now. And wait until people see the Massive Regiments rules, and how absurd it makes 40 strong Skeleton units. 

It's also good to remember, that even when the only thing you could summon was those crappy zombies and skeletons. It was still broken mechanism. Anyone remembers the "summon horde" armies from 6th Edition?

[themortalgod]

Personally, I feel a big part of the problem is summoning became a lot less thematic in AoS. Forgetting about summoning by other armies for a moment, Death used to be about, as others have mentioned, bringing corpses back from death. Not about summoning any unit imaginable. The theme was about an endless shambling horde of death. 

In my opinion, the rules for banners bringing models back fill this theme superior to how summoning ever did. It creates this idea of a horde of the dead that keeps coming back to life. It makes more sense that existing units would be bolstered by its own dead than a random unit popping up on the other side of the field of any type.

That said it misses the thematic mark of bringing the ENEMY's units back to life to fight. Which brings me to my idea on how death summoning could work in a more interesting way. Have a system where each time an enemy non-hero infantry or cavalry unit is wiped out put a token down where the last model fell. (sorta like blood tithe but instead of a collection they are markers on the field). The death player can then summon 10 zombies, ghouls, or skeletons or 2 spirit host within 6" of a marker without paying reinforcement points. That ways its nothing too powerful, its more like a few newly risen chafe from the corpses of your enemies. (The token would be consumed in the process thus vastly limiting the amount of summoning possible)

On top of that we could add a rule where any "graveyard" terrain starts the game with 2 counters on it and death players can purchase graveyard terrain for X pts each the same way Sylvaneth can bring wildwoods. 

Other than that leave the rest of summoning as it is now with reinforcement points making it more of a deep strike mechanic than anything else. Because really its not like thematically the necromancer is "raising" a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon that happens to be around. Its more like they are opening a dark portal that brings that hero from another location to join the fight so it fits that that sort of summoning uses reinforcement points. 

On top of that, I think reinforcement pts need to be scrapped for effects that bring stuff into play as a byproduct. For example who is ever going to save reinforcement pts for the off chance that Neferata's dagger happens to make a Vampire Lord mid battle? Those sorts of effects should be taken into account when pointing the models that have the ability rather than as reinforcement pts. (And the points of such abilities should be significantly lower than the reinforcement point cost would have been to represent the significant loss of control and reliability relative to just summoning or fielding said unit as normal)

And finally, for items, (such as the ring), I think GW made a mistake tying those to warscroll battalions and making them free. Instead, they should just assign pts to them and be done with it. The ring, for free, before reinforcement pts was OP, the ring after reinforcement pts is useless. But say the ring at the cost of 50 or 75pts would be reasonable. It would also allow for all items to be more relevant as they would be costed according to their impact on the game. As it stands right now players just run the most powerful items and ignore the rest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aginor]

I agree with a lot what was said here, and yes, while free summoning with only a low casting roll is still my wet dream (I play Seraphon) it is horribly imbalanced and I am glad it is gone for matched play.

And I do believe that some sort of summoning pool is the right approach, but I also think what we have now is meh. It becomes very visible with Nagash and Kroak. Those are overcosted because the points were defined having summoning in mind I think.

Now, if the rule of one didn't apply for summoning it would make those multi-spell models better for summoning because you could actually try more than once. The way it now is (risk of failure AND point costs) is what IMO makes summoning bad. It has its uses, but it isn't a viable tactic in itself.

Perhaps a spell or meditation that creates reinforcement points would be interesting. So you use a spell to create some points and them can use them in a later round for summoning. Nagash, Arkhan, Kemmler, Kroak, or a Slann could use more than one spell each round for that. But they paid for it with their high point cost. Maybe you can add another disadvantage to it, like they cannot move when they do it or some unit may receive a wound, or they lose one point of their save that round, something like that.

And/or perhaps the needed summoning rolls should be increased. If you compare it with other spells:
Foot of Gork is insanely powerful if you are lucky. I would say it easily worth more than 10 Skeletons if it succeeds. But it's high casting roll makes it risky. I think casting should be that way. And very strong units should need very high rolls. A Bastiladon or Zombie Dragon should not be easy to summon, not even for Arkhan. Maybe easier for Kroak and Nagash but that's ok because they are expensive as hell, because one is the most powerful wizard of the universe and the other one is the frikkin' God of the undead!
The only easy summons should be crappy chaff units.

As for other ways of reinforcement: I think the units should pay with their point cost. For example Pink/Blue Horrors. IMO it is bad that they can't split if you don't have points. Make them more expensive and factor that in.

[Sception]

the best way to 'fix' summoning is to replace it with healing.  Less "raise dead" and more "invocation of nehek".

[Aginor]

 

54 minutes ago, Sception said:

the best way to 'fix' summoning is to replace it with healing.  Less "raise dead" and more "invocation of nehek".

Healing is kinda pointless if most of your models have just one wound. Otherwise so would agree.

Also I think it would just not be the same. For Seraphon I wouldn't care that much. But for Death the summoning of undead hordes is just so iconic.

[Oppenheimer]

1 hour ago, Aginor said:

 

Healing is kinda pointless if most of your models have just one wound. Otherwise so would agree.

Also I think it would just not be the same. For Seraphon I wouldn't care that much. But for Death the summoning of undead hordes is just so iconic.

I think he means return slain models to a unit, not heal wounds. Basically reactivating the banners with a spell, or doing what the TK spells usually do rather than summon.

[Sleboda]

On 8/4/2017 at 8:51 PM, Miller said:

how do you balance units that can potentially add models or units to the table?

How do you balance units that can potentially remove models or units from the table?

A wizard has a damage spell. That wizard costs points. For his points he can roll dice and potentially kill your key hero that cost you 200 points. He can do this "for free."

Another wizard has a summon spell. That wizard costs points. For his points he can roll dice and piyentially add a 200 point unit to your army. He can do this "for free."

Either way this wizard, "for free" has shifted the points on the table by 200 points.

Cost the wizard appropriately and have done with it.

Frankly, the same thinking applies in shooting or combat as well.  You pay X points to get a unit that can change the points on the table through its actions.

Summoning just feels different, but it's not. 

[#SteveJames]

GHB 2017 is out very soon and a lot of Death factions will be getting a boost,  so this will go someway to fixing them. 

Summoning as a rule is bad at the moment ifs risk and reward. 

Rewards is assuming you have the models you have massive versatility. Places of power summon a survivable character. need to claim and objectives summon on to it. Facing a combat army summon a cheap screen unit in front of your army. 

Risk is your summoned can get killed before you use all your Summoning pool. 

I played pre GHB and in our club army's that could summon had massive advantage. I played mixed death once and inflicted enough wound to destroy the whole army but didn't kill a single original unit all I could do was kill the summoned stuff. 

[Gotrek]

11 hours ago, Aginor said:

 

 

On 8/6/2017 at 2:10 AM, Lord Veshnakar said:

</snip>

Summoning in the past was to account for the fact that undead crumbled and units like Skeletons/Zombies weren't really that great in combat. Undead units aren't subpar anymore. Skeletons, and to a lesser extent zombies, can completely wreck now. And wait until people see the Massive Regiments rules, and how absurd it makes 40 strong Skeleton units. 

as someone who has run 30 strong skeleton blocks for battleline for the last 2 years i can assure you they are not unstoppable. they bounce off anything with a 3+ save and will die in droves to anything that has any kind of rend. 

23 hours ago, ReynakZhen said:

IMO, the only thing that is needed is to make the death allegiance mainstay units, ie: zombies,skeletons,ghouls easier to summon enmass. Make is so a unit of 10 can be summoned on say a 4+, a unit of 20 on a 9+ and a unit of 40 on a 12+

umm....they already do. if you roll an 8+ for summon zombies you get 20. if you roll 10+ for skeletons you get 20. rolls of 10 also get you bonus grave guard and black knights

11 hours ago, Aginor said:

<snip>

And/or perhaps the needed summoning rolls should be increased. If you compare it with other spells:
Foot of Gork is insanely powerful if you are lucky. I would say it easily worth more than 10 Skeletons if it succeeds. But it's high casting roll makes it risky. I think casting should be that way. And very strong units should need very high rolls. A Bastiladon or Zombie Dragon should not be easy to summon, not even for Arkhan. Maybe easier for Kroak and Nagash but that's ok because they are expensive as hell, because one is the most powerful wizard of the universe and the other one is the frikkin' God of the undead!
The only easy summons should be crappy chaff units.

As for other ways of reinforcement: I think the units should pay with their point cost. For example Pink/Blue Horrors. IMO it is bad that they can't split if you don't have points. Make them more expensive and factor that in.

you cant summon a zombie dragon/terrorgheist anymore (no summon values in the newest warscrolls from Flesh Eater Courts) and when you were able to summon them, it DID require a 10 which is pretty hard without some serious bonuses.

 

1)Less than half of the supported undead roster can be summoned via spell.

2) most of what can be summoned via magic at all is ****** to mediocre given how quickly they will die since you summon in minimum sizes and you cant rely on getting the boosted version unless you are nagash or arkhan.

3) I would like to see a 2 for 1 reinforcement set up like SCGT comp had. run 200 points under and get 400 points to summon on board. gives a reason to summon. As it stands now, i dont see the reason to use summoning. I can make a solid all comers list easily, large blocks of skeletons for battleline to claim objectives and kill light to moderately armored troops, VLoZD w/red fury to kill the heavily armored stuff, another big stompy thing as a backup when VLoZD dies and some heroes to buff the skeletons/give the deathless minion aura.

4) what i would LOVE to see are spells that add models to existing units. Change the summons spells to read "or add d6(or d3 for elite units) models to a unit within 18" this can't allow a unit to exceed its starting size". keeps the theme of shambling hordes and gives us some more staying power.

[lare2]

13 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

4) what i would LOVE to see are spells that add models to existing units. Change the summons spells to read "or add d6(or d3 for elite units) models to a unit within 18" this can't allow a unit to exceed its starting size". keeps the theme of shambling hordes and gives us some more staying power.

This would be great. When you're losing 20+ skellies/zombies a turn, I find the d6 you get back a turn from banners to be pretty inconsequential. 

[Silchas_Ruin]

Main thing for me would be to split up summoning in 2. Keep most as is, but make a new rule, probably a keyword for stuff you want to be free. Give that new keyword to on a case to case basis. Stuff like once a game setup 1 unit abilities should not be costing summoning. Playing Khorne myself, Karanak can once a game setup a unit of Flesh Hounds if within 8" of a specific enemy unit. I should not have to set aside points for that, it should be costed into Karanak. Hell, make a summon free if you get 8 Blood Tithe and choose battleline.

On the more regular summoning. Take Nagash, change his Death Magic Incarnate to on a 10+ casting you don't have to pay for bonus models, only the original summon. But limit it to a list of units. That list could be different for different casters. So 1 guy could get extra zombies and another extra skeletons.

Change warscrolls on a case to case basis where you want something special with summoning and up cost of caster if needed. Should be able to avoid it going insane that way, while making summoning a thing that could be fun.

[Silchas_Ruin]

24 minutes ago, Gotrek said:

4) what i would LOVE to see are spells that add models to existing units. Change the summons spells to read "or add d6(or d3 for elite units) models to a unit within 18" this can't allow a unit to exceed its starting size". keeps the theme of shambling hordes and gives us some more staying power.

More of this would be great too

[Aginor]

Some more nice ideas there!

I just hope that the guys and gals at GW come up with at least as many ideas as we do (or read threads like this one) and add/change rules to something more fun and still balanced.

[Squirrelmaster]

7 hours ago, Sleboda said:

How do you balance units that can potentially remove models or units from the table?

A wizard has a damage spell. That wizard costs points. For his points he can roll dice and potentially kill your key hero that cost you 200 points. He can do this "for free."

Another wizard has a summon spell. That wizard costs points. For his points he can roll dice and piyentially add a 200 point unit to your army. He can do this "for free."

Either way this wizard, "for free" has shifted the points on the table by 200 points.

Cost the wizard appropriately and have done with it.

Frankly, the same thinking applies in shooting or combat as well.  You pay X points to get a unit that can change the points on the table through its actions.

Summoning just feels different, but it's not. 

In principle I kinda agree, in practice I think there are a couple of issues to watch for:

1. In terms of casting difficulty vs reward, the summoning spells are not balanced against each other, nor against the other spells available to Death wizards. You would have to cost Death wizards on the assumption that they would only ever be used to spam the most powerful summoning spells available to them, which means using them for anything else would become non-viable. That restricts competitive players to a very limited style of play. If summoning had been made more balanced from the start it might be viable, as it stands I think you would have to give each summoning spell a points cost, not paid for each casting, but for each wizard who knows it. e.g. A necromancer could cost 100pts, and upgrade to know the "summon skeletons" spell for another 50pts, during army selection.
2. Chain summoning. Right now in open play I could, in theory, take a single Lord of Change and then fill the entire board (bar a 9" bubble around my opponents' models) with various types of Tzeentch herald, in a single Hero phase. The Rules of One would help with that, but doesn't stop me running through a list of each summonable unit who can, in turn, summon other units, and summoning all of them each hero phase. Accounting for that in the cost of each model who can summon is not impossible, but again forces players into a very specific style of play if they want to get their points' worth.