Thoughts on 4.0's New Rules

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:

I find myself wondering if generic terrain will be attackable in the same way as Faction Terrain.

Would be an interesting replacement for that one rampage. A lot of terrain pieces already have warscrolls from Dawnbringers... 5?

Even though endless spells are now free, I wonder if they will be worth it for the average army. I previously never took them because I always thought that spending points on a spell I might not even cast was worse than going for a triumph or upgrading a unit. That part is no longer an issue, but if I look at what we know of the game so far, I am not sure I would want to cast endless spells, anyway.

Every army already gets a spell lore that all wizards know, so that's some competition for endless spells. If you only bring one small wizard, it probably has a warscroll spell you want. Even armies with multiple small wizards probably don't have a lot of free casts. My most recent list had 4 One-Cast Andys, and between warscroll spells and Mystic Shield, I basically never had a cast to waste on a 7 CV endless spell. I think only lists that effortlessly get more casts than they can use will really want an endless spell package. So Lumineth, Tzeentch, Seraphon, maybe Soulblight if Lore of Vampires is still bad.

But even then, endless spells now seem very easy to deal with, give you can unbind, dispell and fight them. Seems hard to keep them on the field.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

But even then, endless spells now seem very easy to deal with, give you can unbind, dispell and fight them. Seems hard to keep them on the field.

That's what I was thinking. I have been using my faction's Endless Spells on a semi-regular basis (because I often seem to have the points spare... and because I like the models!) but it's not often that they're entirely worth it. It seems like now they'll be able to be just clobbered if all else fails. 

 

[Greyshadow]

4 hours ago, Big Kim Woof-Woof said:

I find myself wondering if generic terrain will be attackable in the same way as Faction Terrain.

I wouldn’t think so but who knows?

[OkayestDM]

The size of spell lores is going to influence how often endless spells see the table. If thete's only 3 spells a lore, endless spells may become more frequent.

The Weirdknob Shaman doesn't have a native spell, and I wouldn't be surprised if unique spells become more of a rarity.

I also wonder how many wizards will be promoted to level 2+. That, custom spells, and a bonus to cast are 3 different values that can be used to differentiate and role-define various wizards. 

[PraetorDragoon]

2 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Would be an interesting replacement for that one rampage. A lot of terrain pieces already have warscrolls from Dawnbringers... 5?

Even though endless spells are now free, I wonder if they will be worth it for the average army. I previously never took them because I always thought that spending points on a spell I might not even cast was worse than going for a triumph or upgrading a unit. That part is no longer an issue, but if I look at what we know of the game so far, I am not sure I would want to cast endless spells, anyway.

Every army already gets a spell lore that all wizards know, so that's some competition for endless spells. If you only bring one small wizard, it probably has a warscroll spell you want. Even armies with multiple small wizards probably don't have a lot of free casts. My most recent list had 4 One-Cast Andys, and between warscroll spells and Mystic Shield, I basically never had a cast to waste on a 7 CV endless spell. I think only lists that effortlessly get more casts than they can use will really want an endless spell package. So Lumineth, Tzeentch, Seraphon, maybe Soulblight if Lore of Vampires is still bad.

But even then, endless spells now seem very easy to deal with, give you can unbind, dispell and fight them. Seems hard to keep them on the field.

According to the articles, Manifestation Lores are in addition to your spell lore. So there is no competition on listbuilding with other non-manifestation spells. You pick the ones you might potentially benefit from. 

Will you cast them in many games? Maybe, maybe not. There might be a point where casting them is beneficial instead of other spells, and you can do so at no points or listbuilding costs.

Another point is that the Weirdnob does not have a warscroll spell. There is also the question if spells like Mystic Shield are going to be a CORE spell for everyone, or if those are going to be in a generic lore. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 minutes ago, PraetorDragoon said:

According to the articles, Manifestation Lores are in addition to your spell lore. So there is no competition on listbuilding with other non-manifestation spells. You pick the ones you might potentially benefit from. 

Will you cast them in many games? Maybe, maybe not. There might be a point where casting them is beneficial instead of other spells, and you can do so at no points or listbuilding costs.

Another point is that the Weirdnob does not have a warscroll spell. There is also the question if spells like Mystic Shield are going to be a CORE spell for everyone, or if those are going to be in a generic lore. 

Even though endless spells don't cost points anymore, there is still some opportunity cost to them. There is no disadvantage to bringing them, that is true. But I am not convinced yet that not bringing them is a big disadvantage.

Take the Quicksilver Blades, for example:

Assuming that the banishment value is close to the cast value, is it really that good to use a cast on a CV 6 or 7 endless spell that probably does nothing for a round and does, like, 4-6 rend 1 damage and 2 mortals per activation? You have to set it up outside of 9" and get through the possibility of banishment and getting the spell shot off the table before it can fight a lot of the time, aftwr all. I feel like if I have a 1d3 mortals + some other effect on a regular spell, the two are in pretty tight competition.

I am more likely now than I was before to pick up the malign sorcery box after the rules change, but I don't yet think that I need to buy it in order to not handicap myself.

[Marcvs]

58 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Even though endless spells don't cost points anymore, there is still some opportunity cost to them. There is no disadvantage to bringing them, that is true. But I am not convinced yet that not bringing them is a big disadvantage.

Take the Quicksilver Blades, for example:

Assuming that the banishment value is close to the cast value, is it really that good to use a cast on a CV 6 or 7 endless spell that probably does nothing for a round and does, like, 4-6 rend 1 damage and 2 mortals per activation? You have to set it up outside of 9" and get through the possibility of banishment and getting the spell shot off the table before it can fight a lot of the time, aftwr all. I feel like if I have a 1d3 mortals + some other effect on a regular spell, the two are in pretty tight competition.

I am more likely now than I was before to pick up the malign sorcery box after the rules change, but I don't yet think that I need to buy it in order to not handicap myself.

I feel the point is that banishing them or killing them cost resources. In particular, one shouldn't underestimate what doing 6 damages means (i.e. more than what a chaff units with 10 attacks on 3+/3+/-1/1 will do on average). Are you using a mid-sized hammer or multiple units to kill a spell which can be recast next turn (whether it's your turn or you opponent)? What about 2 or 3 of them?

As for not having them not being a big disadvantage: maybe. The point remains that if you don't buy a box of these you're playing with less rules. It is as if you needed to have spell cards in order to access your faction lore. It's not the end of the world (proxying, kitbashing, 3d printing etc) but playing a "standard" game just became (a bit) more expensive for new players

[TechnoVampire]

42 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

I feel the point is that banishing them or killing them cost resources. In particular, one shouldn't underestimate what doing 6 damages means (i.e. more than what a chaff units with 10 attacks on 3+/3+/-1/1 will do on average). Are you using a mid-sized hammer or multiple units to kill a spell which can be recast next turn (whether it's your turn or you opponent)? What about 2 or 3 of them?

As for not having them not being a big disadvantage: maybe. The point remains that if you don't buy a box of these you're playing with less rules. It is as if you needed to have spell cards in order to access your faction lore. It's not the end of the world (proxying, kitbashing, 3d printing etc) but playing a "standard" game just became (a bit) more expensive for new players

I feel the same. No one will not take a lore if they a free, and I think most lists will have some opportunity for casting them. T1 being out of range of a damage spell or not having any significant buffs, attempting to bring an additional unit that can fight, move block, do mortals or any number of other things could be a big advantage. I think there’s potentially much more incentive to play with them now than before when there was a cost attached. As a result I think there will be much more pressure on players to buy them, even out of FOMO. 

[Ferban]

Today's preview is Spearhead. 

High level: it's combat patrol for AoS.  However, a couple of good points. The units all have re-balanced warscrolls and armies even have different abilities.  They note that something with a lot of small units might have the ability to revive.  And armies with power hitters (like the Annihilators) have restrictions on when they can come into the battle.  That's a touch heavier than in combat patrol and probably for the better. 

Also, they show off spellcasting.  Since the Magic Module won't be used, spells are basically just warscroll spells.  Roll 2d6 and get an effect if you pass the target number.  There doesn't appear to be any unbinding.  That seems fine for the condensed Spearhead game. 

More interesting, they say that the launch box will include Spearhead cards (not explained in the article, sadly) and terrain.  As well as the Core Rulebook.  We already know that the launch box will also include the first season GHB.  And with the number of models anticipated, that's a beefy box.  Of course, I'm sure it will come with an even beefier price, but getting so much of the game in one place is really enticing.  

[PraetorDragoon]

22 minutes ago, Ferban said:

Today's preview is Spearhead. 

High level: it's combat patrol for AoS.  However, a couple of good points. The units all have re-balanced warscrolls and armies even have different abilities.  They note that something with a lot of small units might have the ability to revive.  And armies with power hitters (like the Annihilators) have restrictions on when they can come into the battle.  That's a touch heavier than in combat patrol and probably for the better. 

Also, they show off spellcasting.  Since the Magic Module won't be used, spells are basically just warscroll spells.  Roll 2d6 and get an effect if you pass the target number.  There doesn't appear to be any unbinding.  That seems fine for the condensed Spearhead game. 

More interesting, they say that the launch box will include Spearhead cards (not explained in the article, sadly) and terrain.  As well as the Core Rulebook.  We already know that the launch box will also include the first season GHB.  And with the number of models anticipated, that's a beefy box.  Of course, I'm sure it will come with an even beefier price, but getting so much of the game in one place is really enticing.  

One thing to note is that the leviathan launch box did also contain combat patrols, but not all units could go in those patrols

I would expect the same for the aos launch box.

[OkayestDM]

Man, I wasn't expecting to get excited about Spearhead, but I really like what they've shown! 

Smaller-scale games curated from a set list of models that are - supposedly - tightly balanced against one another. 

The Yndrasta rule is flavorful (tanky hero and dudes coming in to turn the tide) and seems like an excellent way to balance out more powerful units. 

Redeploy is a nice addition too, which genuinely sounds like good fun. 

Edited May 1 by OkayestDM
Spelling

[Skreech Verminking]

52 minutes ago, OkayestDM said:

Man, I wasn't expecting to get excited about Spearhead, but I really like what they've shown! 

Smaller-scale games curated from a set list of models that are - supposedly - tightly balanced against one another. 

The Yndrasta rule is flavorful (tanky hero and dudes coming in to turn the tide) and seems like an excellent way to balance out more powerful units. 

Redeploy is a nice addition too, which genuinely sounds like good fun. 

Funnily enough I’m not really that excited.

spearhead even after reading the article, reminds me heavily of the combat patrol system.

it’s fun to learn the game with it, but its a system you funnily enough din’t want to play to often.

As of what we currently know what spearhead is, I fear it might end up the same 

[Bosskelot]

They also stated that Combat Patrol was exquisitely balanced and it most certainly isn't.

[Cambyses]

30" x 22" is a really, really tiny board even for a game of this size. Makes wonder if there's any maneuvering to be done at all or if most games will just boil down to mosh pits in the middle.

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Funnily enough I’m not really that excited.

spearhead even after reading the article, reminds me heavily of the combat patrol system.

it’s fun to learn the game with it, but its a system you funnily enough din’t want to play to often.

As of what we currently know what spearhead is, I fear it might end up the same 

Exactly. I was really excited for combat patrol when they announced it and all the news they put out made it look great, but the release was a total flop. They said everything was balanced with custom rules and the weaker patrols would have tweaks to bring them up to speed, but none of that panned out at all.

Now granted AoS should be easier to balance because they don't have the toughness value so vehicles aren't really a problem and the teams are completely different so who knows, but I'm not super hopeful this time around. For example their comment about weapon profiles being the same as the full game is ringing alarm bells because a lot of the basic battle line infantry are really going to struggle against armored targets like S2D. We'll have to wait and see but, you know, fool me once and all that. I'm not getting my hopes up. 

[Tonhel]

40 minutes ago, Bosskelot said:

They also stated that Combat Patrol was exquisitely balanced and it most certainly isn't.

The marketing power is strong within GW. 🙂 I fear Spearhead is a gimmick and that it will be boring very quickly.

 

[TechnoVampire]

Spearhead won’t be for me. The joy of a table top war-game (for me), is playing my list that I’ve put (too many) hours of thought and craft into, against someone else’s. I’m not interested in playing a pre-made list, but I hope there’s something for other people to get excited about. 

[Skreech Verminking]

18 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

Spearhead won’t be for me. The joy of a table top war-game (for me), is playing my list that I’ve put (too many) hours of thought and craft into, against someone else’s. I’m not interested in playing a pre-made list, but I hope there’s something for other people to get excited about. 

Mmh, I’d suggest having a look at old world.

i have a feeling you might like the list building there specifically

[Greyshadow]

Yes, yes and yes! I am so excited for Spearhead! For me, this is THE part of 4th edition I am most excited about. Why? I am hopelessly time poor and most of my gaming group have moved on as they don’t have the time anymore. I can play about at most about three or four games of Age of Sigmar a year. No way most of my buddies will even prepare an up to date army list before they arrive. This will be perfect.

I can’t justify starting full Kharadron or Idoneth armies but I could do a Spearheads 😃! Also, retail staff have been crying out for something like this for years. I think it will do a lot of good bringing new people into the hobby.

If Spearhead isn’t for you that’s fine. Top players will probably look elsewhere. But I am supra-excited for it! (That’s a whole other level beyond super).😃

Edited May 1 by Greyshadow

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, Tonhel said:

The marketing power is strong within GW. 🙂 I fear Spearhead is a gimmick and that it will be boring very quickly.

 

I think a preconstructed game mode like Spearhead is valuable for beginners. I hope it is fun and succeed at lowering the barrier to entry for AoS. If it does, then I don't think it needs to have long-term appeal for enfranchised players with large collections.

[TechnoVampire]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Mmh, I’d suggest having a look at old world.

i have a feeling you might like the list building there specifically

I like the idea of unit upgrades. I used to play WFB way back when, but I’ve very little desire to return to rank and file. AOS strikes a good balance for me. 

[Bosskelot]

Spearhead will at the very least not be telling beginners to build their units in specific ways which then become useless/bad in the "main" game because AOS has very simplistic loadouts for the most part.

However it looks like it's still going to have the same issue where a beginner is basically learning different rules from what eventually is the actual game.

[Big Kim Woof-Woof]

I'm rather liking the cut of Spearhead's jib. Especially because I've nearly got enough models in my collection to play either Hedonites or Slaves or Beasts! Having a pre-set army list is a little bit stiff... but I think I can live with it. 

[Tonhel]

20 hours ago, Tonhel said:

The marketing power is strong within GW. 🙂 I fear Spearhead is a gimmick and that it will be boring very quickly.

 

I was wrong. Todays article looks fantastic. Now I am more excited with Spearhead than for AoS main.

Spearhead + TOW could be the perfect combo for me. Spearhead so I still have an excuse to buy those beautiful AoS mini's (if included in the spearhead boxes) and TOW for big battles with a lot of customization.

 

Edited May 2 by Tonhel

[Ferban]

More Spearhead today.  Now we get a look at the cards. 

Love. Love this.  So much.  I really like splitting the choice between commands and tactics.  For a short game, that will likely provide a real choice in how you play.  Also, love the twists.  Twists work great in Warcry and I see Spearhead as filling a different, but similar space.  I'm not sure I'd love a changing twist based on luck of the draw in a full 2k point game.  But for a Spearhead?  Seems really fun.  

I'm sure this system will work better in the smaller format, but it's a bit of a bummer that battle tactics (the only real miss of 4th edition so far) were improved - or at least changed - only for Spearhead.