How do YOU tweek your lists?

[Ben]

Hi all, 

I was wondering how people generally approach tweeting their lists.

Its something that is second nature to many experienced gamers but newer players might struggle with. 

I hope to get some discussion going and make a list of solid tips for evolving an army list.  

For me, I try to make small changes only a few at a time and see whats working.  Others like to jump from list to list changing everything all at once.  

An example for me is my recent Legion lists.  I have the same list but the option to add 2 characters and a formation.  or use those 2/300 points on another unit.  I have tried this both ways and am still unsure on the better option but I have been trying out bother variants and tweeking each of the lists to they and find the best one.  

Part of this is also down to units that I enjoy using, and trying to fit them into the list.  

How do you approach tweeting your lists? 

[ElectricPaladin]

I just put on some music with a beat and Neferata starts shaking her…

No, wait, you wrote tweak.

[MightyQwan]

I will play my army for 3 or 4 games. At the end of that time.I should have a pretty good idea of my strenghs and weaknesses.

In my case I play Beastclaws. Great army. Strenghs are toughness, mobility and combat damage output. Weaknesses are low numbers, objective capturing and ranged damage output. I have come to realize that I need to go into GA Destruction. I removed a unit of 4 mournfang and added 40 greenskin orruks with bows. This gives me a ranged threat as well as an objective capturing option that will be hard to displace while maintaining the face smashing capabilities of my stonehorns and Thundertusk. 

The point is to improve the balance in the army in order to make it more versatile.

[RuneBrush]

Generally I "review" how my game went and what did and didn't work and what I enjoyed and what I didn't.  As @Ben I'll try to only swap out one or two units at a time as it's easier to pick up the rules for a couple of new units than an entirely different army.

For AoS I find it's also about looking at what synergies/buffs worked and if I could improve them - what can I drop to fit in a Herald of Khorne to but that unit of Bloodletters?  Equally though there is also a case where you want to add a new model or unit that you just fancy having  

[Cookiez]

I try to build my lists around battalions/combos and then tweak only the support after a few games. Then goes the question - can I achieve the same effect with less points. Like, why do I use the 260 Slann Starmaster? For mystic shielded Bastiladon. So why do I have him in the list instead of any other mage? But there goes the Thunderquake Starhost, where behemoths heal d3 wounds instead of 1 when near the Slann. Is he worth his 260 points now? Adding the constellations and 2 more spells, I think yes. So I add him only with Thunderquake Starhost, but tend to replace him with the Skink Starpriest in 1k games. Same goes with every other faction and army.

[Nico]

It's a good topic as it's certainly possible to do it really badly. For example, my Order list has gone through far too many iterations. I've painted and discarded the Vexillor (too expensive), 15 Retributors (too predictable), 10 Protectors, 2 Medusae, 10 Hearthguard Berserkers (all because of list building/tweeking); as well as 9 Waywatchers and a Forest Dragon (because I couldn't bring the army to Warlords because of a conversion and then because I couldn't use these units at Honour & Glory as they are Wood Elves rather than Waywatchers - Compendium units not allowed - which I strongly disagree with).

Definitely write the list or at least 1500 points of it, before you buy any models. I have at least done this with Sylvaneth and Fyreslayers. 

[Nico]

4,690 points of Destruction Warscrolls and I have one Battleline Unit! must be some kind of record.

[Tiger]

12 hours ago, Ben said:

How do you approach tweeting your lists? 

Well, see why I've lost. If it's simply because the opponent brought units that have more value for their points or are simply in the gimmick waters, I'd rather swap opponent.

I don't have that much income, can't afford to constantly swap units or build my list entirely around countering that "value" my opponent put together. Especially, if the play style of the army that I'd be forced to play would turn out to be boring or models that I simply don't like.

Sometimes having a few different pieces of terrain is going to make all the difference on the flow and how you can abuse it, so it's important to keep that variance in mind as well.

Theme and scenarios. Scenarios will determine how the game needs to flow, while theme is usually something I enjoy playing. Multiple fast elements with some control elements has usually been my favourite way. Not sure how this will transfer into AoS but I'm not going to freak, if I'd need to drop a unit of Prosecutors to get more durable elements such as Liberators or maybe another hero.

As a rule I try not to change too much, before digging into the main idea of my force.

[RossMHoward]

Usually I plan around having 40-50 wounds/bodies for objectives and battleline. If these units have a dual purpose then their value goes right up!
 

Then I pepper in units that perform the following functions:

1. Dish out mortal wounds in any phase
2. Can threaten hero's or warmachines in any phase
3. Can buff my combat units
4. Can thin hordes of models to contest objectives later on
5. Can cover distance quickly

Given that I'm currently playing Sylvaneth I struggle with the ability to thin hordes but Gnarlroot wargrove helps me with that. I played a few games with the Silverwood Circlet and The Reaping on my TLA but he died to easily. But I found out that the Branchwych can pull the same shenanigans. 

So most of my tweaking is moving artefacts and spells around. Currently happy with this though:

TLA: Gnarled Warrior and Briarsheath
Branchwych: Silverwood Circlet and Throne of Vines. 

With vines up, she can roll her casting value of 2d6 +d3 dice against every enemy unit within 15". Any 6's are mortal wounds. If you can get her onto some Arcane Terrain you can easily be rolling 10-12 dice against every unit within 15"
 

 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

I have devised a spreadsheet which for each unit combines the average and maximum damage output in to a score, it's resilience, speed and bonuses for abilities. This then has links to other units which directly synergise.

This is then used to create a total army Combat Power score which is modified by bonuses or negatives for each of the six Matched Play scenarios to create a final Strategic Power score.

An algorithm can then be used to calculate a perfectly efficient army for a given faction.

Just kidding(although not really I have actually done this) I just tend to make an army with whatever is painted, within one faction and synergises. Then after a battle I'll probably completely change the list for next time.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I'll play a few games (5-6) so I get a good feel for things and then adjust the list depending on what I have been having trouble dealing, keeping what has been effective so I've got a base to work from.  The whole idea being keep it being good at what it's good at and become better at what it does badly. 

[Double Misfire]

Throw everything out, start again and then realise I don't have enough painted models to start again and use the same list I used last time.

[Lissë-Prime]

Just share my journey. Please note the mix-and-match the starter set to create units with special weapons without buying all of separated boxes. This is pretty aggressive and insane collection but consider the fact that I've been collecting them for more than a year and I played only 1 army, it's not so much monthly expense. I consider both for optimized list for playing and also just want to have the biggest Stormcast army in my country as I mentioned when introduce myself here at the first time.

1. I always want to start from Starter since it's low price. The 2-Faction AOS Starter box is the best value. I found 2 friends who are going to play Khorne things. So at first I already have 2 of 2-faction box (That's 2 Lord-Celestant on Dracoth, 2 Lord-Relictors, 6 Prosecutors with Celestial Hammers, 6 Retributors and 20 Liberators with Warhammer and Shield.)
2. I added "The Skyborne Slayers" (which was sold as a bundle back then) so I also have 1 Lord-Celestant on Foot, 1 Lord-Castellant and Gryph-Hound, 10 Judicators (I modeled them with Bow), 5 Decimators, 5 Protectors and 10 more Liberators (I put Sword and Shield to them). I also bought another box of Judicators so in total I now have 15, all of them equipped with bow since I found no use of crossbow in my play style.
3. Now that I have 6 Prosecutors from starter set, I bought another 2 boxes of Prosecutors and modeled them to be Prosecutors-Prime and 2 Big Weapons. So combined with the starter set, they became completed 4 units of 3 Prosecutors, all with 1 leader and 1 big weapon. What I lag now is those with Stormcall Jevelins, which I can have later if I find some use, but I just use these guys to play nuisance around and charge some glass cannons. I also bought each of the knights and now I can play the legendary battalion "Host Azyric"  
4. I had 20 Liberators from Starter but don't have big weapons, so I later bought 2 boxes of them and modeled to be double-sword units (with 2 Great Sword, of course). I got 2 Liberators from my friends who bought the AOS book that come with free models so I tweaked them with 2 Great Hammers. Now I have 42 Liberators with only 2 units without big weapon. So I'm planning to buy 2 more boxes (to make double hammer units) and modify 2 more models. In total I would have 64 Liberators which every unit can consist of one with a big weapon. I probably will never use them all in action but they do look good on display along with other elites.
5. For Extremis Chamber, I only use 2 Concussors at a time so I don't pay attention much to collect them. But I aim for having 4 of Dracothian Guards for each type of unit (total 16 of them) and a few Stardrakes for the sake of looking great on display only.
6. I planned to buy another 3 boxes of Paladin. This way I will have 2 unit of each type and can field them in a unit of 5 with the option of including either 1 or 2 deadly Starsoul Maces. (My first 2 boxes I made mistake to include only 1 mace each because the rules was not updated back then.)

When you collect the army of this scale, points and playlist will be the secondary questions because you can simply shopping form your collection. But keeping track of this collection with only notepad or excel sheet makes me headache. I found that PowerPoint or Keynote (depending on whether you use PC or Mac) will be pretty handy to visualize what you aim for, what you already have and what is WIP. The attached image is the example of what I aimed for at first. I highlighted my completed colorized units with gold border and what in progress with red. So it's quite easy and motivating as you progress toward your goal. (Note: my goal shifted toward a much smaller army than this because it's too insane to collect and paint them all.)

 

[Darth Alec]

You guys are all serious business. I bring my lists, built around 2-3 must-have elements (Vlad and Isabella, or Skeleton archers, or zombie dragon), then build a cool army from there. I still rock an unbuffed Bone Giant in most of my lists.

[Double Misfire]

8 minutes ago, Darth Alec said:

You guys are all serious business. I bring my lists, built around 2-3 must-have elements (Vlad and Isabella, or Skeleton archers, or zombie dragon), then build a cool army from there. I still rock an unbuffed Bone Giant in most of my lists.

My man! You are basically me, hi5.

I actively try to stay away from too much over the top synergy knowing that there's always a chance that the key piece in whatever broken beatstick build I can theoryhammer up gets sniped on the first turn, leaving the most exciting units in my army feeling redundant. I like to feel that every unit in my army outside of the obvious exceptions (warmachines needing engineers to babysit them) can both operate self sufficiently if they're forced to and can be completely disposable if I need to sacrifice it.

Recently I've started experimenting with not building armies around command traits/artefacts in order to roll for them and see if I can taunt opponents into rolling for theirs too.  

[ElectricPaladin]

Serious answer.

When I play, I tend to focus on Battalions, because I like them and the Flesh Eaters have some great ones. Then I work around to fill in requirements for the game size I'm playing. After that, it's a matter of maximizing synergies and seeing what works and what doesn't.

[SuperHappyTime]

I play some games and toss the models that didn't contribute. Even if said models just had a bunch of unlucky dice rolls.

[Lissë-Prime]

4 hours ago, SuperHappyTime said:

I play some games and toss the models that didn't contribute. Even if said models just had a bunch of unlucky dice rolls.

That's harsh, but I understand your feeling though. 

[Kramer]

I do à complete overhaul every time. But guess what after a couple of plays with a army I sort of get a basis on which I rely. 

But inevitably I get unit to paint because I like the looks, so they become a must have in the next games and the cycle starts again 

 

it keeps it fresh and exciting for me and my opponents 

[Lucio]

I buy new models, and try to fit them into the list by taking out whatever offended me the most in the last game I played. To chose the new models I tend to pick whatever looks coolest or makes the best conversion

[WAAAGHdogg15]

I think I have, at one time or another, done all of the above.

Since this thread is about tweaking, not changing your army wholesale, I'd say that I tweak by looking at what I'm getting out of my periphery/support units. I usually build my armies around a couple of strong combat/high damage units and a big main character or two. The rest of my points go towards units that will help them do their job. If the list isn't working, it's usually those support troops who aren't firing for some reason and that's where I start with my tweaking.

Of course, if that doesn't work - "Hey guys, I've decided to collect a whole new army!"

[Gorsk]

Given the high cost of GW models, the prevalence of "what you see is what you get" and the amount of time it takes to paint the models, it is very difficult to experiment or mix/match in Age of Sigmar (as compared to a Malifaux or collectible card game).  This is dependent on disposable income, time to assemble stuff and storage space.  I just don't see having sets of units with different weapon options available any time soon.  Examples of models that I should but probably will not have multiples of: Gordrakk vs. Megaboss on mawkrusha, units of ardboys with shields vs. great weapons vs. two weapons and bloodthirster variants.  While magnetizing would be a great option, I am just trying to get my first army on the table and am not ready to tackle the engineering.

Fortunately or unfortunately, ironjaws are my first love.  There just aren't that many options as compared to some of the order and chaos armies.  It makes collecting easier, but limits list variability in terms of which units to include in my list.  Selecting options for khorne seems much wider with all the bloodbound leaders, the demons and the slaves to darkness.

Anyway, here is the process I am following:

Step 1.  Come up with a concept based on a mix of 70% aesthetics, 30% synergies.  Keep a list of the army in excel and plan out purchases.

Step 2. Purchase and assemble models to hit the 1000 point mark.  Aim to field one battalion - ironfist.

Step 3. Grow the list to hit the 2000 point mark.  Aim to field ironfist or wierdfist.

Step 3a. Succumb to the temptation to start building a second army - start on step 1 in parallel (khorne bloodbound/demon mixed army)

Step 4.  Build out options for the army, using mix of 45% aesthetics and 55% synergies.  Maybe brutefist, gorefist and or ardfist along side ironfist/wierdfist.