Dealing with new release disappointment and model loss

[EntMan]

To be honest I'm not really dealing with the disappointment. Loss of models, loss of coalition rules, lots of people thinking the writings on the wall for multiracial Cities.

It's making Cities seem all a bit boring for me ☹️

I guess I'll just buy and paint the models I like and not worry if they are usable as an army on the tabletop. Or maybe I'll spend my limited money on other hobbies...

[Skreech Verminking]

12 minutes ago, EntMan said:

To be honest I'm not really dealing with the disappointment. Loss of models, loss of coalition rules, lots of people thinking the writings on the wall for multiracial Cities.

It's making Cities seem all a bit boring for me ☹️

I guess I'll just buy and paint the models I like and not worry if they are usable as an army on the tabletop. Or maybe I'll spend my limited money on other hobbies...

Well… i’ve seen the rule, and as a dispossessed player I am quite disappointed.

currently it seems like city of sigmar is a book written for humans.

Well at least Phoenix guard have reawakened as darkling coven black guard.

now black guard have a 4+ ward😂

[Hollow]

Well, I for one am very happy to see the removal of many ToW miniatures from the CoS range. I think GW has done a great job at providing support for older miniatures (8 years of direct support for Old World ranges in AoS! and at least another couple of years for Dark Elf models and likely even more for Dwarfs! Just how long do people want ranges to sit stagnant?) and even then it is likely we will see many of them return for ToW. (Where they belong!) 

Seeing the Dark Elves being primed for exile from the Cities is good news, as it shows that Malerion and the realms of Ulgu are on the horizon. Whether they are combined with DoK to create one large "Children Of Khaine" Faction or come as their own book, we will have to wait and see (I'd personally like to see a large combined Children of Khaine Faction) The Dark Elf range in Cities has never sat that well with me. Aesthetically, practically and in regard to lore they have never been a good fit IMO.

I do hope we will see some actual proper Elven Cities kits once the Dark Elf kits are removed. With the human aspect of the Cities beautifully fleshed out and supported with this release, there are some really exciting creative avenues available to explore with Elves (and Dwarfs although I fear it will be some time before City Stunties are explored) 

I just cannot relate to some of the comments on the site regarding the removal of these kits. "Oh, I really wanted them! I haven't bothered to buy any of them over the last 15 years! but now there is likely a further 2 MORE years of support I'm sad." huh?  

Edited August 7, 2023 by Hollow

[Freemeta]

i'm a new aos player so yeah i can't aford to buy something obsolete in 2 years that are legal in a new book. btw i'm ok if they removed old whb models to refresh dwarf and elf range (maybe half-aelf and half duardin that dont want to leave their city).

[Hollow]

13 minutes ago, Freemeta said:

i'm a new aos player so yeah i can't aford to buy something obsolete in 2 years.

Models don't turn to dust and disappear when rules change or are removed. Rules and game relevance come and go, models are for life. 

[Pick]

40 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Models don't turn to dust and disappear when rules change or are removed. Rules and game relevance come and go, models are for life. 

yeah but if the models arent supported by gw anymore then theyre as good as useless to someone who mainly enjoys playing the game.

[Hollow]

How are they useless? Unless you are in a tiny percentage of tournaments you can use GW models in the game forever. Conversions and proxies are fine. I use 20+ year old models "no longer supported by GW" in games of 10th edition 40k no problem. So how are they useless? Also. who says you only have to play the current version of any game? There is a thriving 2nd edition community and others that play every edition of 40k. I just don't understand how a model not having an exact current stat sheet of conceptual rules makes a physical model "useless" it just does not compute with me. Nor my lived experience. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Hollow

[Wraith]

@Hollow is right. Models are a physical asset. They have intrinsic value.
 

The solution, as already stated on this thread, is to look at other rule systems. Go to clubs rather than shops to join a community who will play with notGW rules or old rules.

Anyone familiar with GW* will know that they need to future proof their investment. Associating with people who let you proxy and are prepared to try alternative rules or play old rules, is how you manage GW risk.

The LGS and the tournament scene, and range refreshes that obsolete part of your collection, along with the excitement of new releases, are the mechanisms of a games industry. If one is sick of being caught up in the machine, and one wants to be involved in a hobby rather than an industry, then leave the places that  impose the rules that restrict what models you are allowed to use. Or at least attend those places that do more regularly.

*WotC is much the same. The big boys like to create and exploit monopoly power.

[Sleboda]

On 7/19/2023 at 1:08 PM, Noserenda said:

I was always put off One page rules because the rules are more than one page, and if they are lying in the title...

I agree.

 

Plus, any company whose business model is "Someone else spent decades and millions of dollars creating and developing something ... let's swoop in and ride their coat tails with a derivative product that could not have existed without the investment of the companies we're bottom feeding off of" is not one worthy of support.

[dekay]

21 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Plus, any company whose business model is "Someone else spent decades and millions of dollars creating and developing something ... let's swoop in and ride their coat tails with a derivative product that could not have existed without the investment of the companies we're bottom feeding off of" is not one worthy of support.

Yeah, it would be clearly unethical to begin with publishing minis and materials for Dungeons and Dragons and then, after getting some market recognition, turn it into your own fantasy game of wait that's early GW.

Ideas can be improved upon, and original isn't always the best. OPR is a fun game, with a growing model line of its own in addition to being open to any other manufacturers. Brand loyalty gets you nothing, usually.

[Hollow]

4 hours ago, dekay said:

Brand loyalty gets you nothing, usually.

Huh? Brand loyalty is responsible for the rise of some of the biggest corps on the planet. With those resources, companies are able to invest in R+D which results in products significantly better than if they were a fraction of the size. Brand Loyalty is incredibly important for both companies and their customers. (It should never be taken for granted though) Do you even capitalisim? 

[dekay]

16 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Huh? Brand loyalty is responsible for the rise of some of the biggest corps on the planet. With those resources, companies are able to invest in R+D which results in products significantly better than if they were a fraction of the size. Brand Loyalty is incredibly important for both companies and their customers. (It should never be taken for granted though) Do you even capitalisim? 

Let me rephrase: Brand loyalty gets *you* nothing. Of course it's good for the company, that's the point. You're better off buying things that suit you, and defending GW against their competition certainly doesn't help anyone but GW. The market needs competition, unless we're happy with a single monopoly gouging prices, not caring to proofread their rulebooks and publishing supplements that immediately get overwritten by an errata.

Yes, GW makes nice minis. And it's also better for everyone if we don't treat it as a sole source of the hobby and rid ourselves of the notion of 'official' models and rules.

Edited August 11, 2023 by dekay

[Marcvs]

35 minutes ago, Hollow said:

Huh? Brand loyalty is responsible for the rise of some of the biggest corps on the planet. With those resources, companies are able to invest in R+D which results in products significantly better than if they were a fraction of the size. Brand Loyalty is incredibly important for both companies and their customers. (It should never be taken for granted though) Do you even capitalisim? 

Err in you vision of "capitalism" what is that makes these companies invest in R+D instead of remunerating their shareholders?

[pnkdth]

On 8/7/2023 at 9:18 PM, Wraith said:

@Hollow is right. Models are a physical asset. They have intrinsic value.
 

The solution, as already stated on this thread, is to look at other rule systems. Go to clubs rather than shops to join a community who will play with notGW rules or old rules.

Anyone familiar with GW* will know that they need to future proof their investment. Associating with people who let you proxy and are prepared to try alternative rules or play old rules, is how you manage GW risk.

The LGS and the tournament scene, and range refreshes that obsolete part of your collection, along with the excitement of new releases, are the mechanisms of a games industry. If one is sick of being caught up in the machine, and one wants to be involved in a hobby rather than an industry, then leave the places that  impose the rules that restrict what models you are allowed to use. Or at least attend those places that do more regularly.

*WotC is much the same. The big boys like to create and exploit monopoly power.

Yeah, the way GW has gone about things have finally pushed me to the point where I decided to put my money where my mouth is and move on. Granted it is not a huge step given I've dabbled in other systems for awhile now. If you still want that army versus army battle fix OPR (especially the paid version) will scratch that itch. GW's skirmish games are not bad but they're basic and if you want a deep dive I recommend other games (my faves being Infinity and Malifaux).

If you like how GW does things, have fun, I'm not telling anyone what you can and cannot enjoy. The hobby is bigger than any game system and you do not owe GW (or any company) anything. All I can say is my collection of minis have been perfect for adding immersion to all kinds of tabletop games (from the most basic tabletop game to advanced skirmish games).

Another positive is my pile of "shame" has become a gold mine.

In short, are you sticking to X hobby out of habit or because you're enjoying yourself?

Finally, have you asked your friends about games they've been dying to play? I can almost guarantee there's at least one they've pining for someone to try it with.

[JackStreicher]

7 hours ago, Hollow said:

Do you even capitalisim? 

You mean needlessly destroying the planet, your wealth, jobs and the future so a few hundred people can build their version of a Dagobert Duck Tower?

To get this right off the bat: Brand loyalty is the strongest in the U.S.A. It’s mostly irrelevant in Germany (and apparently in the EU in general?) except for some circles of people that fell for the status symbol nonsense (mostly people that couldn’t afford those in the first place)

Brand loyalty is a myth companies want you to believe in in order for them to take advantage. Ideally you should always keep an eye open for the best price performance and buy the corresponding product. (Try to be as much of a Homo economicus as possible)

The moment a company gets too much market power their product doesn’t get better anymore since there’s no competition, it degrades to money gauging and decreasing innovation and quality.

 

So to get money for R+D they have to produce a good product wich sells well due to its innovativeness and quality. To produce and develop such a product they need pressure caused by competition etc.

Brand loyalty is a simple way if gauging money without putting work into it. It’s basically a cheap trick. If a company can only keep afloat due to some weird and false one-sided relationship of customers then by all means let the company sink and disappear.

And there‘s so much more
enough of this, back to topic

Edited August 11, 2023 by JackStreicher

[novakai]

That being said no one really question GW quality when it comes to models, they are some of the best miniatures in the industry for being mass produced.

there pricing is more because they decided to tied themselves to the UK first and foremost and do internal manufacturing instead of outsourcing. Which has benefits and downsides of course.

rather I often feel their competition is rather week or just viving their own niche space in a niche market. Privateer press basically crash down and Star War legions and MCP are basically licensed merchandise from Disney. Everyone else has their own quality problems or only cater to a small market (cough kingdom death) 

[dekay]

10 minutes ago, novakai said:

That being said no one really question GW quality when it comes to models, they are some of the best miniatures in the industry for being mass produced.

Mostly agreed. That's why despite completely abandoning 40k rules, I still buy, paint and play 40k minis. Just not with GW's rules. AoS is still playable, but I certainly wouldn't say no to an offer of playing something else with my AoS models.

[Hollow]

13 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

You mean needlessly destroying the planet, your wealth, jobs and the future so a few hundred people can build their version of a Dagobert Duck Tower?

I mean the creation of wealth that brings health, education and quality of life to Billions of people, the capitalism that brings millions out of poverty every year. The device you used to type that, the game this very forum is about, and the luxury of living a life that allows you to turn around to the hundreds of millions of people still unfortunately in dire poverty and say they should stay there to make you feel better about "saving the planet" (whilst benefitting from the very things you are advocating depriving others of) Do your arms hurt from pulling up the ladder behind you? Anyways... enough of that. 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Hollow

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Hollow said:

I mean the creation of wealth that brings health, education and quality of life to Billions of people, the capitalism that brings millions out of poverty every year

You are joking, right? I‘d advice you to research your claim since in reality almost every point is the exact opposite. 

Capitalism brings no one out of poverty it creates poverty. Since your comment cements that you are definitely U.S.-American I‘d ask you to continue this debate via pm with me, TGA is not the place for politcal/systemical talk

 

cheers

Jack

[Freemeta]

Christopher Lasch: The Revolt of the Elites: And the Betrayal of Democracy.

A satire: The Rise of the Meritocracy from Michael Young. (price is too high sadly).

on my wish list: the Tyranny of Merit: What's Become of the Common Good? (Michael J. Sandel).

just my 2 cent. i suppose capitalist fans play karhadron "Overlords" 😁

Edited August 12, 2023 by Freemeta

[Beliman]

42 minutes ago, Freemeta said:

just my 2 cent. i suppose capitalist fans play karhadron "Overlords" 😁

Nope

[Hollow]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Since your comment cements that you are definitely U.S.-American

I am not American and I wasn't talking about America. Anyways... 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Hollow

[Freemeta]

so...

 

[zilberfrid]

3 hours ago, Freemeta said:

Christopher Lasch: The Revolt of the Elites: And the Betrayal of Democracy.

A satire: The Rise of the Meritocracy from Michael Young. (price is too high sadly).

on my wish list: the Tyranny of Merit: What's Become of the Common Good? (Michael J. Sandel).

just my 2 cent. i suppose capitalist fans play karhadron "Overlords" 😁

Hey! One can enjoy fantasy capitalists while disliking real capitalists!

[Freemeta]

yeah me, i love chaos dwarf dark industrialism (and usualy i love steampunk army).