Dealing with new release disappointment and model loss

[zilberfrid]

22 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I think geographical location is really important to remember when having discussions like this. Price and population density can massively impact the perception of the hobby and those vary wildly depending on where you are in the world. I've been in the hobby for nearly 25 years now and I struggle to understand how it's possible anybody could buy these models from a pure hobby perspective with no care for the rules whatsoever. In my part of the world they're just too expensive to consider for me if I'm not going to get the full enjoyment of modelling, painting, and gaming. If I lived in the UK with their prices then maybe I could imagine a world where I didn't care that my models were suddenly unusable, but as is it's just mind blowing to hear. 

Even the concept of playing purely with friends in a basement is a little bizarre to me. I first got into the game with a friend, but I've never been able to convince any other friends to get into the game and stick with it. Models are too expensive and there's too much time commitment. After high school my friend couldn't afford the game anymore and I was left with playing at a LGS exclusively. That hasn't changed in the last 18 or so years. Nobody I know has even the slightest interest in dropping thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours. Again maybe in a part of the world where the game has more general popularity and is more affordable I could see basement gaming being more prevalent, but here it just seems impossible. 

Alternate gaming systems are also almost laughable for me. I've seen a few come and go, and played a number of them myself, but the only one that's sticks is Warhammer plain and simple. There just aren't enough people where I live for there to be any type of regular gaming on a variety of systems. Just for an example, the population density of the UK is about 280 people per square kilometer. The density in my province is about 6.7. I live in one of the biggest cities in my country with a little over a million people. The next closest city around that size is a little over 3 hours away by car. The next is about 12 hours away.

I guess to bring this on topic, people experience the hobby if vastly different ways around the world. If you bought some models with some pocket change and got dozens of games in with your mates then yeah you'll probably feel like you got your money's worth and won't mind too much when they get rotated out. If you had to save for a month to buy a single infantry kit and you can only play at a gaming store that's a 40 minute drive away once a month then your perception of value will be wildly different. 

I buy models to paint them, and sometime use them for non-warhammer games. I never play GW games.

Edited July 23, 2023 by zilberfrid

[Hollow]

Oh, there is no doubt that the vast majority of people who buy GW models do so to collect, paint and model rather than to play games of Warhammer. 

[Skreech Verminking]

 Considering the new models for city of sigmar.

they look cool….

but I’d prefer having the old models.

thankfully they will be staying or better said coming back thx to old world.

considering that, I have no problems starting an empire swiss Reichsläufer  army

with the different heraldry.

they’ll be this army that kinda started to understand how useless armor is against blackpowder weapon and opted for lighter armor, as well as stylish clothes, to show what it means to be a proud man/ or woman of the swiss city of new…… lets go with Bremgarten

[Freemeta]

to deal with disappointment i 'm looking at other range. my only concern is playing them at my LGS. at local tournament in my city it can be hard to play no-GW model.

[Skreech Verminking]

22 minutes ago, Freemeta said:

to deal with disappointment i 'm looking at other range. my only concern is playing them at my LGS. at local tournament in my city it can be hard to play no-GW model.

Same here.

lot of the models I’ll be taking from highlander miniature.

they make amazing 3d printable models.

i’m not certain that I will be able to play them at any of the tournaments in my area, but I don’t mind it either.

[EntMan]

On 7/24/2023 at 11:48 AM, Freemeta said:

to deal with disappointment i 'm looking at other range. my only concern is playing them at my LGS. at local tournament in my city it can be hard to play no-GW model.

Do GW have a current stance on kitbashed/modified models? I seem to remember they used to have rules on what percentage of a model had to be bits from GW models?

[Freemeta]

idk, my local LGS is doing a crusade against 3D print and model they don't sell, i guess some people abused counterfeit and "free" models.

so yeah i will triy to kitbash a lot to make what i want. i'm a fan of Malifaux'puppet miniature and Grymkin from Privateer Press and want to try to play them in Ao.

[Marcvs]

9 minutes ago, Freemeta said:

idk, my local LGS is doing a crusade against 3D print and model they don't sell, i guess some people abused counterfeit and "free" models.

The sad thing is that this generally means banning proper alternative ranges and 3d printed minis*, whereas actual recast models are still perfectly fine because it's very hard to spot them.

 

*Which in itself is perfectly within the legitimate choices of a LGS

[BigNStinky]

I still will never forgive GW for not updating the rules for my immense Khorne Dragon. I still run him at any and every opportunity even though he's legends and his rules are complete trash.

I've also been burnt and rage sold my Swifthawk agents force (I regret this immensely as the models were beautiful) and most of my Eldritch council force (I kept my Forgeworld dragon rider everything else is gone).

Although AoS is entering and pushing boundaries with new stuff (ex: lumineth, OBR,  etc.) I find a lot of the wackier higher fantasy themes are just not my thing. A big example is Kharadron - they're SO CLOSE to being something I love but its just... off? Missing something. I couldn't even say exactly what but its just not quite there for me and the same is true of a lot of armies coming out but that's probably just nostalgia and preference talking.

 

As others have stated they should have ripped the band aid completely. I sold armies to fund "new" stuff to make said forces above with the idea that GW had culled what it wanted and what was left would be safe (at least in the sense that they may get new models at some point) and then they were over time removed. I know from a business standpoint the churn of armies and purchases is good for GW but I find myself looking at 3rd party and 2nd hand miniatures exclusively now.

Edited July 30, 2023 by BigNStinky

[Gitzdee]

13 hours ago, Marcvs said:

The sad thing is that this generally means banning proper alternative ranges and 3d printed minis*, whereas actual recast models are still perfectly fine because it's very hard to spot them.

 

*Which in itself is perfectly within the legitimate choices of a LGS

I dont think LGS should ban anything for just casual play if they put in the effort to print 3d models and paint them. I do think when u talk about tournaments they should ban other models. I think its normal to use AoS minis in a AoS tournament or match. I dont see people at a MTG tournament using their own printed cards. I really dont understand why people would think otherwise. I hated playing people at a lgs with proxy cards that were just sleeves with a piece of paper and text inside. Didnt even bother to print the actual card. I also like seeing other AoS armies and see other people put in the effort. It breaks my immersion of the mortal realms if the other army looks like its from a different game. I think playing older models should be encouraged not banned.

[Marcvs]

28 minutes ago, Gitzdee said:

It breaks my immersion of the mortal realms if the other army looks like its from a different game.

It's a matter of feelings so I can only respect your different point of view. Personally I think the mortal realms are (on purpose) so vast and varied that it's difficult to say clearly this fits / this doesn't. The "breaking of immersion" is also a very difficult thing to handle objectively. I might find immersion breaking that miniatures have bases that do not match the battle map and similar things.

[Gitzdee]

13 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Personally I think the mortal realms are (on purpose) so vast and varied that it's difficult to say clearly this fits / this doesn't.

I agree with this. People should go nuts with their imagination. But printing insect creatures and calling them orcs would not do it for me. Same for having minis in a totally different scale. To me AoS has a certain style to their minis. Wouldnt like to play an army of anime chibi looking minis. I exaggerate a bit here to make my point come across. The minis should represent something from the mortal realms.

[JackStreicher]

39 minutes ago, Gitzdee said:

I agree with this. People should go nuts with their imagination. But printing insect creatures and calling them orcs would not do it for me. Same for having minis in a totally different scale. To me AoS has a certain style to their minis. Wouldnt like to play an army of anime chibi looking minis. I exaggerate a bit here to make my point come across. The minis should represent something from the mortal realms.

However: If they play insects (silent ones) and they explain lorewise that they pretty much play the same as Kruleboys, then I would not mind

[pnkdth]

2 hours ago, Gitzdee said:

I agree with this. People should go nuts with their imagination. But printing insect creatures and calling them orcs would not do it for me. Same for having minis in a totally different scale. To me AoS has a certain style to their minis. Wouldnt like to play an army of anime chibi looking minis. I exaggerate a bit here to make my point come across. The minis should represent something from the mortal realms.

That said, if someone were to paint up an entire army of insectoid beings I would gladly create a personal space in my head-canon for them. Even a Chibi army cause that would be adorable. Sometimes you gotta take a step back and simply acknowledge the hobby is bigger than our perceived notion of what is and isn't setting appropriate.

I mean, sure, if you play a narrative game a Chibi army might be... distracting. 😆

[Freemeta]

so how do we deal with the loss of coalition unit in the new CoS book ? it was a big part of City identity and now they are tasteless.

[dekay]

7 minutes ago, Freemeta said:

so how do we deal with the loss of coalition unit in the new CoS book ? it was a big part of City identity and now they are tasteless.

Use allies and play cities that have extra rules for using those allies. Yes, CoS are now limited as to how many allied units they can use at the same time, but all those units are still available. It's more of a forced change to army composition than actually losing something.

[Beliman]

35 minutes ago, Freemeta said:

so how do we deal with the loss of coalition unit in the new CoS book ? it was a big part of City identity and now they are tasteless.

I'm not a fan of this but I think it's part of the new AoS design. Kharadrons lost their Duardin Coalition in Barak-Thryng, that was the first sign that the coalition-allies design shifted from the old battletomes, and Cities of Sigmar confirmed that.

I suppose we are going to see the same trend in all new battletomes and maybe even in 4.0.

Time will tell

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I'm not a fan of this but I think it's part of the new AoS design. Kharadrons lost their Duardin Coalition in Barak-Thryng, that was the first sign that the coalition-allies design shifted from the old battletomes, and Cities of Sigmar confirmed that.

I suppose we are going to see the same trend in all new battletomes and maybe even in 4.0.

Time will tell

I guess it's part of the push for a stronger faction identity for Cities. In 2nd edition, CoS was kinda just a succesor to the Grand Alliance: Order armies from before. It makes sense that GW wants to avoid Cities lists running mostly Stormcast again (although I think Stormcast will probably be looking really closely at some Cities auxiliaries for their Stormkeep lists right now). We don't have to like it, but it makes sense as part of the process of turning CoS into a real army.

[Beliman]

27 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I guess it's part of the push for a stronger faction identity for Cities.

I hope so, but KO didn't have any identity problem and still they were cut from Coalition Duardins. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I hope so, but KO didn't have any identity problem and still they were cut from Coalition Duardins. 

This development is happening all over 3rd edition, as you know. Since the earliest FAQs, in fact, where all the Chaos factions lost a lot of interplayability. My view is that GW just really does not like it when units of one faction are made obsolete by those from another in their own book. For KO, that probably means not wanting to risk having Arkanauts and Thunderers replaced wholesale by sturdier melee oriented dwarves from Cities or Fyreslayers. Although, of course allies are still an option.

This design trend is also the reason why I am very skeptical of the Regiments of Renown, by the way.

[bethebee]

I will say it was very cathartic reading the Cities book.  Even though I've known about Wanderers being squatted for a while now there was still some residing anxiety over the matter, like I couldn't wait for GW to just go ahead and pull the band-aid off.  While I'm not very happy with the direction this book is taking I can still find a lot of things to appreciate even if the army is no longer for me.

[Baron Klatz]

Indeed. The slow replacement of old armies to pure AoS ones is sure to be a painful process but for every bandage removed it’ll be a healthier system and setting as a whole with the “leftovers” feelings gone and AoS making new fresh chapters for itself.

On that note I do appreciate both Soulbound and the new book are addressing these things.

Era of the Beast already continued the Nullstone Brotherhood as a reason why Phoenicians & Wanderers left the main cities and set out on distant crusades to avoid the persecutions and now the tome gives even explanations why the Phoenicium is less active.

 

(also has a nod to why Hammerhal Aqshy changed it’s colors from Azyrite blue & gold to red and grey as the new generals like Tahlia pushing for natives to represent their city and country. Though stubborn holdouts still try to keep the old colors)

On 8/5/2023 at 12:33 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

This development is happening all over 3rd edition, as you know. Since the earliest FAQs, in fact, where all the Chaos factions lost a lot of interplayability. My view is that GW just really does not like it when units of one faction are made obsolete by those from another in their own book. For KO, that probably means not wanting to risk having Arkanauts and Thunderers replaced wholesale by sturdier melee oriented dwarves from Cities or Fyreslayers. Although, of course allies are still an option.

This design trend is also the reason why I am very skeptical of the Regiments of Renown, by the way.

Yeah that was a Big problem with CoS that it was barely CoS at all. Even the Sports Station made fun about that:

 

And while it completely side-blinded me they pulled them all out(especially since I kept saying they’d be the big new Coalition army for every faction 😂) I do understand this method of both wanting factions to stand on their own legs and make it easier to balance so they don’t run into obsolete units.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 8/5/2023 at 9:24 PM, Beliman said:

I hope so, but KO didn't have any identity problem and still they were cut from Coalition Duardins. 

Well I mean so do the fyreslayers.

and they jave never been a coalition unit for the army.

also whats the talk about tournaments banning older models, that’s the first time I’ve heard of that, or I wouldn’t have been playing the last 5 tournaments against a lumineth army comprised of old high elves😂

[Beliman]

On 8/5/2023 at 9:33 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Since the earliest FAQs, in fact, where all the Chaos factions lost a lot of interplayability.

Yes but they still have coalition units.

A lot of synergies were lost but to be fair,  KOs already had keywords incompatibility since 2d edition (Skyfarer and Marine).

40 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well I mean so do the fyreslayers.

Ooos, I didn't know that Fyreslayers had coalition units.

[Skreech Verminking]

34 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Yes but they still have coalition units.

A lot of synergies were lost but to be fair,  KOs already had keywords incompatibility since 2d edition (Skyfarer and Marine).

Ooos, I didn't know that Fyreslayers had coalition units.

Sorry I meant they never had coaltition. That was lazy writing on my side😅, sorry mate.

personally I would still love to see a city that only allows dwarfs.