Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Unit1126PLL]

1 hour ago, JackOfBlades said:

But how did you create it?

Lots of spare bits, a second buy of the Endless Spells and the Fane, and one of those battery-powered LED lamps from Amazon that are galaxy themed. They come with remotes to change the color and stuff.

[Poryague]

I am finding the points to be weird for some units.

Painbringers seem to be 10 to 20 points overcost. I would also say the same for twinsouls.

Some the unique heroes seem over costed by 10 to 20 points maybe more in some cases. Looking at the twins especially they maybe more.

LoP, LoH, blissbarb, daemonettes seem about right.

It feels as though we are paying a tax on some units for the revel in depravity and summoning. Even though we don't start with it and have to earn it. The tax seems way high on some units then other armies have to pay for the abilities. 

[Izotzuhure]

Has anybody tried double KoS in Invaders? They seem quite strong if they go together, one as a general with Best of the Best and Icon to maximise Flaming weapon and then having both getting access to Hurler of Obscenities for extra rend. 

Also, would you activate both Speedchaser and the Exalted chariot's impact hits after charging or would you need to choose one effect only? 

[Thor]

2 hours ago, Poryague said:

 

Painbringers seem to be 10 to 20 points overcost. I would also say the same for twinsouls.

 

i dont know about the twinsouls, doing the math on them abit, they seem incredible strong, their ability to reduce attacks on units nearby seem wild af. i do think painbringers could go 10 points down. 

that said, i havent had the opportunity to play them yet, this wedensday i will have a match against new khorne tho. 

what are other peoples experiences?

[Lucentia]

52 minutes ago, Izotzuhure said:

Also, would you activate both Speedchaser and the Exalted chariot's impact hits after charging or would you need to choose one effect only? 

To my understanding you'd get to trigger both effects, the rules say that if a dice roll triggers multiple effects, then you have to pick one, but the impact hits are triggered by the charge move, not the charge roll, which feels like a bit of a grey area loophole to me, but as far as I can tell that's how it works.

[Poryague]

17 minutes ago, Thor said:

i dont know about the twinsouls, doing the math on them abit, they seem incredible strong, their ability to reduce attacks on units nearby seem wild af. i do think painbringers could go 10 points down. 

that said, i havent had the opportunity to play them yet, this wedensday i will have a match against new khorne tho. 

what are other peoples experiences?

Twinsouls are bit tricky far as what you can compare them to because of there abilities. The main issue is delivering them effectively with out them getting exploded. Against melee armies there probably ok. Not so much against shooting and magic. 

Painbringers if compared to chaos warriors which are similar. Are overpriced. A unit of 10 warriors are 220 and a unit of pains are 290. Painbringers are not bringing 70 points of advantage.

[LeonBox]

5 hours ago, pnkdth said:

Ask the TO/judges to keep an eye out. Players who cross the line need to quickly learn that stuff is not acceptable or they'll go on to ruining several player's day (and future events).

Funnily enough, he went 3-0 and got best Chaos player. I have to wonder how many times he pulled fast ones on some of his opponents, though, as I did not find him a skilled player. 

I myself went 1-1-1. The time allotted per game was far too short -- we had 2 hours and 20 minutes to finish a full 2k game. I didn't get further than round 3 in any given game.  

Irongut/Bull-heavy list with 2 tyrants and some other foot character: Major Victory. We only played 2 full rounds, but my debuffs (and the Masque sneaking into a unit of 20 Gnoblars for early DP generation) meant he really struggled with this matchup. 

Teclis/Sentinel LRL: Draw. We only finished 2 rounds (his first hero phase took up about 20% of the match) but I wiped both units of Sentinels and put 8 wounds on Teclis, who walked right into the Crown of Dark Secrets debuff. Had we gone to round 3, I think I'd have tabled him. Also the Masque tanked Sentinel and Teclis shooting for the whole first turn, and it took him 2 turns to remove her, meaning she more than earnt her points back wasting a lot of shooting units' time. 

Droth-only Fyreslayers list: Major Loss. Just so many Droths reflecting mortals back on everything, and not enough shooting to deal with them. Also I was tired by this point and made a lot of stupid decisions (failed a battle tactic and didn't get any objectives at all turn 1), and the battle plan played too well into his strengths (only 3 objectives that he could park 2-3 Droths on; my low model count made it extremely hard to take them off them). Highlight was Glutos tanking 3 Droths for almost a whole double turn from them. 

The Lord of Pain survived every battle, but I was too cautious with him sometimes (he didn't buff at all in the Ogor matchup). Glutos was actually pretty rubbish the first two battles, but almost made it for it by one-shotting a Droth and putting another on 14 wounds. 

MvPs was Slickblades, who were champion EKs. Coupled with the Barbseekers, their rend is killer. Also the Twinsouls were great for dropping attacks and tanking LRL wardens. Our debuffs really hurt LRL, actually making them quite a decent matchup for us. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by LeonBox

[Poryague]

13 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Funnily enough, he went 3-0 and got best Chaos player. I have to wonder how many times he pulled fast ones on some of his opponents, though, as I did not find him a skilled player. 

I myself went 1-1-1. The time allotted per game was far too short -- we had 2 hours and 20 minutes to finish a full 2k game. I didn't get further than round 3 in any given game.  

Irongut/Bull-heavy list with 2 tyrants and some other foot character: Major Victory. We only played 2 full rounds, but my debuffs (and the Masque sneaking into a unit of 20 Gnoblars for early DP generation) meant he really struggled with this matchup. 

Teclis/Sentinel LRL: Draw. We only finished 2 rounds (his first hero phase took up about 20% of the match) but I wiped both units of Sentinels and put 8 wounds on Teclis, who walked right into the Crown of Dark Secrets debuff. Had we gone to round 3, I think I'd have tabled him. Also the Masque tanked Sentinel and Teclis shooting for the whole first turn, and it took him 2 turns to remove her, meaning she more than earnt her points back wasting a lot of shooting units' time. 

Droth-only Fyreslayers list: Major Loss. Just so many Droths reflecting mortals back on everything, and not enough shooting to deal with them. Also I was tired by this point and made a lot of stupid decisions (failed a battle tactic and didn't get any objectives at all turn 1), and the battle plan played too well into his strengths (only 3 objectives that he could park 2-3 Droths on; my low model count made it extremely hard to take them off them). Highlight was Glutos tanking 3 Droths for almost a whole double turn from them. 

The Lord of Pain survived every battle, but I was too cautious with him sometimes (he didn't buff at all in the Ogor matchup). Glutos was actually pretty rubbish the first two battles, but almost made it for it by one-shotting a Droth and putting another on 14 wounds. 

MvPs was Slickblades, who were champion EKs. Coupled with the Barbseekers, their rend is killer. Also the Twinsouls were great for dropping attacks and tanking LRL wardens. Our debuffs really hurt LRL, actually making them quite a decent matchup for us. 

How many mortal wounds was he kicking back? Even if you did the full 14 wounds to it the average kick back is 7 mortal wounds and dies. Or is there another way to kick back mortals I haven't played Fyreslayers.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Poryague

[LeonBox]

1 minute ago, Poryague said:

How many mortal wounds was he kicking back? Even if you did the full 14 wounds to it the average kick back is 7 mortal wounds. Or is there another way to kick back mortals I haven't played Fyreslayers.

The issue was I was quite elite (e.g. Slicks) so he was killing like 2 models and then I was failing to wipe him, so he was hitting back with a lot of attacks. As I said, I was misplaying a lot because it was the last game of the day (and 7 hours of gaming total) so I was a bit overloaded at that point. 

[Poryague]

4 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

The issue was I was quite elite (e.g. Slicks) so he was killing like 2 models and then I was failing to wipe him, so he was hitting back with a lot of attacks. As I said, I was misplaying a lot because it was the last game of the day (and 7 hours of gaming total) so I was a bit overloaded at that 

Do you think running  it to elite may have caused some short falls?

[LeonBox]

2 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Do you think running  it to elite may have caused some short falls?

I think we're pretty much an elite army anyway. I mean I guess we could run daemonette blobs, but they're made of paper and far too expensive. I could have definitely played better to aim for a closer score -- I went for Eye for an Eye turn one and he had some ward save rune up which made his Droths even tankier. It was a bad time all round.

[Poryague]

3 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

I think we're pretty much an elite army anyway. I mean I guess we could run daemonette blobs, but they're made of paper and far too expensive. I could have definitely played better to aim for a closer score -- I went for Eye for an Eye turn one and he had some ward save rune up which made his Droths even tankier. It was a bad time all round.

Demonettes are in a weird spot when you compare them. Gor are 110 can't run and charge no rend. Similar profile 4h 3w vs 3h 4w. Demonettes run and charge but gor have strike last and get the rend on round 2 and rend 2 round 4. They also get a 4+ save with shields. They can asily drop Demonettes points.

We are still suffering pointing issues on some units. There seems to be an assumption on us easily getting the depravity early game which is not true and extremely matchup dependent. While gor in this example gain abilities automatically as the game progresses with little the opponent can do.

[LeonBox]

6 minutes ago, Poryague said:

Demonettes are in a weird spot when you compare them. Gor are 110 can't run and charge no rend. Similar profile 4h 3w vs 3h 4w. Demonettes run and charge but gor have strike last and get the rend on round 2 and rend 2 round 4. They also get a 4+ save with shields. They can asily drop Demonettes points.

We are still suffering pointing issues on some units. There seems to be an assumption on us easily getting the depravity early game which is not true and extremely matchup dependent. While gor in this example gain abilities automatically as the game progresses with little the opponent can do.

Yep we are in a bad spot if we can't get the -1 on our first turn, which is what happened today with Fyredroths. He accepted a few of my temptation dice but I rolled exclusively 1s and 2s for all of them, so I didn't get the -1 until turn 2, which really hurt. 

[MothmanDraws]

To be honest I do think we will run afoul of the issue control builds do in other games like mtg or yugioh, were mid tier players will dislike fighting us as they will be good enough to play their army but not good enough to play against our army. Death star armies taking the bait and going into the lord of hubris deathball/tarpit. Feeling they are taking too much damage vs the dice (when other armies are doing similar just you dont feel its "your fault"), playing standard (chaff out front to eat charges).

But ye to echo other statements I do think playing vs another and whole time bemoaning your opponents "op"ness is very unseemly, maybe he was just RPing as belakor the salt master. I always viewed it as "the controlling player rolls their own resource generation" but would be fine if opponent wanted to, they would just have to ask as I assume its my thing to roll, though unless they were subtly accusing you of rolling funky I dont think it would solve much and he would likely have then complained about bad luck when he rolled to give you the 6. 

He made 3 major mistakes vs you which should be his take away, 1. dont let the masque have a fun spot vs your death star, just because a piece dies t1 without "doing anything" doesnt mean its not a value trade 2. Dont charge a death star into lord of hubris and painbringers (especially when buffed up) unless you have a plan you are stuck there for minimum 2 rounds, there is better value in ripping apart the rest of the slaanesh army, in fact the army is built on the idea that you ignore the real threats to go smack some pretty boys who are just stood midfield doing nothing 3. Dont let salt dictate tactics, my read on the entire "charge knights into mid" was a rash one along with not taking the extra turn of dark master (the entire point of bringing belakor) playing with a defeatist mindset will throw winnable games.

[JackOfBlades]

7 hours ago, Izotzuhure said:

Also, would you activate both Speedchaser and the Exalted chariot's impact hits after charging or would you need to choose one effect only? 

You get both effects, see 1.6.2 simultaneous effects, and it doesnt fall under 1.6.4 since they arent triggered effects. This is why the tuskhelm artefact specifies that it cant be combined with other impact hits, because you are normally able to unless it says otherwise.

Edited April 2, 2023 by JackOfBlades

[Selpharia]

Had my first play with the new book. The Keeper and the Shardspeaker did incredibly, just lifting a reinforced unit of Chaps Knights on my T1, putting me up to 30+ DP almost immediately. The Masque also endured two rounds of dancing with about 600 points of S2D to just crush his ability to control the board

[Grimrock]

I might be wrong but honestly I don't think the army is priced based on the -1 to hit or any of the other depravity bonuses or the summoning, I think it's priced based on the variety of easily accessible buffs and abilities. Just to start +1/+1 is a killer buff, and hedonites have access to it with no spell cast, no command point, nothing other than a little positioning which is generally trivial for an army as fast as this. Add to that access to a couple low cast +1 to wound spells and a sub faction where you're literally drowning in command points and you get an army that will almost always perform dramatically better than they appear on paper. Then you have a dizzying variety of tech where you can decrease numbers of enemy attacks, force them to attack certain models, reduce hit and wound rolls, forcibly dictate early game positioning... There's just so much going on once you hit the table that there's no way you can consider the units in this book just based on stats alone.

[CeleFAZE]

7 hours ago, Grimrock said:

I might be wrong but honestly I don't think the army is priced based on the -1 to hit or any of the other depravity bonuses or the summoning, I think it's priced based on the variety of easily accessible buffs and abilities. Just to start +1/+1 is a killer buff, and hedonites have access to it with no spell cast, no command point, nothing other than a little positioning which is generally trivial for an army as fast as this. Add to that access to a couple low cast +1 to wound spells and a sub faction where you're literally drowning in command points and you get an army that will almost always perform dramatically better than they appear on paper. Then you have a dizzying variety of tech where you can decrease numbers of enemy attacks, force them to attack certain models, reduce hit and wound rolls, forcibly dictate early game positioning... There's just so much going on once you hit the table that there's no way you can consider the units in this book just based on stats alone.

You're pretty close to my thoughts on the matter. However I will contend that we are still just a bit overcosted by 10 points or so on a number of units, with most of our models 270 and above needing to come down between 20-40 points ideally.

Points aside, a lot of the warscrolls do seem worse baseline compared to before (a small handful are way better even at a glance though), but it's the strong synergies that truly make them shine. However, I feel the (de)buffing pieces should bear the cost for their effects themselves, rather than spreading it over the whole army. That was an issue that S2D also suffered with pretty terribly at the release of their 2.0 book.

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, CeleFAZE said:

Points aside, a lot of the warscrolls do seem worse baseline compared to before (a small handful are way better even at a glance though), but it's the strong synergies that truly make them shine. However, I feel the (de)buffing pieces should bear the cost for their effects themselves, rather than spreading it over the whole army. That was an issue that S2D also suffered with pretty terribly at the release of their 2.0 book.

That's definitely true to an extent, but I think the biggest issue slaves faced was their reliance on those buffs (their stats were pretty bad without them) and how frustratingly inconsistent they were. A single failed prayer or an unbound spell and your combo would just fall apart leaving you high and dry on a critical turn. With a lot of the slaanesh buffs/debuffs just happening with no dice roll things are dramatically more consistent. 

From a game perspective I imagine that the pricing is a little tricky for buffing pieces. Sure you could make the lord of pain 250 points or something and decrease the points of all other mortal units by 10-20, but then maybe nobody would take the lord of pain. I think the current method of just assuming everyone has some buffs/debuffs and pointing accordingly works in theory specifically because the buffs are close to automatic. It does have the unfortunate side effect of creating near auto includes because people need to take the buffing pieces in order to justify the cost of their other units, but there are worse problems for an army to have.

[CeleFAZE]

6 hours ago, Grimrock said:

That's definitely true to an extent, but I think the biggest issue slaves faced was their reliance on those buffs (their stats were pretty bad without them) and how frustratingly inconsistent they were. A single failed prayer or an unbound spell and your combo would just fall apart leaving you high and dry on a critical turn. With a lot of the slaanesh buffs/debuffs just happening with no dice roll things are dramatically more consistent. 

From a game perspective I imagine that the pricing is a little tricky for buffing pieces. Sure you could make the lord of pain 250 points or something and decrease the points of all other mortal units by 10-20, but then maybe nobody would take the lord of pain. I think the current method of just assuming everyone has some buffs/debuffs and pointing accordingly works in theory specifically because the buffs are close to automatic. It does have the unfortunate side effect of creating near auto includes because people need to take the buffing pieces in order to justify the cost of their other units, but there are worse problems for an army to have.

I would accept that fully if it were consistently applied, however some armies are priced according to their unbuffed state, especially Gitz, Ironjawz, Seraphon and Lumineth,  off the top of my head. If LRL in particular were priced with their buffs and control pieces in mind the army would be costed much higher than it is.

[Nasrod]

I return to these forums after a long hiatus. The board's rules about negativity while posting made it so that I would legitimately be banned if I had stayed. You can call that petulant childishness, but the disappointment and frustration I felt from our last book was unreal. 

The new book has my brain burning. I was sick all week so no chances to play, but I plan on attempting a game this Thursday. 

 

----

Pretenders - Battle Regiment (2 drops)

The Masque - 140

Glutos - 480 [General, Phantasmagoria]

Shardspeaker - 125 [Tome, Born of Damnation]

 

Daemonettes x 20 - 250 [Reinforced x 1]

Blissbarb Archers x 11 - 150

Blissbarb Archers x 11 - 150

 

Myrmidesh Painbringers x 10 - 290 [Reinforced x 1]

Slickblade Seekers x 5 - 200

Blissbarb Archers x 5 - 200 [Outside of Battle Regiment]

-----

The plan here is the most obvious one in the book. Rush depravity using The Masque, Sharsapeaker with Tome and Born of Damnation; the reduction of attacks spell is really juicy here as we hit 12 depravity along with Gluttos, and making sure we get a spell for the ward+4 is great. And since our Shardspeaker isn't our General, the Claws unlocked on cast make it a great back up option for Euphoric+Gorge on Excess.

Painbringers and Gluttos form your anvil, with Blissbarb Seekers and Archers harassing from behind. Phantasmagoria goes on enemies to give our Euphoric Killers selections of Slickblade Seekers or 20 Daemonettes the freedom to charge the closest thing trying to interfere with our center and fall back with no opportunity to get clapped back. 

The opponent then has to choose between allocating shooting or a charge to the stranded unit to put it down, or ignore it and try to break the Painbringers and Glutos. By turn 2, Glutos unlocks his advance and charge, allowing him to likely dig in against something if the 6 wound heal isn't going to save him. 

This list is sacrificing a lot of our risky but powerful gimmicks and as such, it almost certainly can be improved. But until I have some games under my belt, Glutos will be my Pretender general. 

[Enoby]

I finished a game vs Soulblight with the following list:

 - Army Faction: Hedonites of Slaanesh

  - Army Type: Godseekers

  - Grand Strategy: Glutton for Depravity

LEADERS

Lord of Pain (135)*

Keeper of Secrets (400)*

  - General

  - Command Traits: Master of Magic

  - Shining Aegis

  - Artefacts of Power: Girdle of the Realm-racer

  - Spells: Progeny of Damnation

Contorted Epitome (190)**

  - Spells: Flaming Weapon

Sigvald (205)**

BATTLELINE

Blissbarb Archers (150)*

Blissbarb Archers (150)*

Seekers (140)**

OTHER

Fiends (200)*

Slickblade Seekers (200)**

Myrmidesh Painbringers (145)**

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS

1 x Mesmerising Mirror (60)

TERRAIN

1 x Fane of Slaanesh (0)

CORE BATTALIONS

*Battle Regiment

**Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: 1975/2000

---

The Soulblight player was pretty inexperienced, so tactically there's not loads to gain from this, but I can at least say I learned more of how the army performs at its core

The Keeper with the Girdle was a fantastic tech piece but the Keeper could be very swingy, even at 2s and 2s. I do like them though!

The Mesmerising Mirror is fantastically strong, and something I'd like to take in most lists to be honest - at least with a casting reroll. 

Normal Seekers were just okay - I felt I didn't need their speed - I'd rather have another unit of blissbarbs to be honest, which were very strong again combined with the LoP. That little 'engine' (to coin a YuGiOh term), is a great way to have a very strong shooting core defend a back objective while provide a lot of damage. 

Fiends felt pretty swingy too here, but their -1 to wound hurt the Blood Knight's attempt to do much to them.

Sigvald felt a bit too slow to do all that much with. He did a lot when he got in, but I think another unit of Slickblades would be better.

Depravity racked up quickly, but we called the game the end of turn 2 as they'd lost about 80% of their army, compared to the five models I'd lost. 

[madix]

I have a quick rules question about using Temptetion Dices. Assumed I wound a unit with a Save of 6+ with an attack with Rend -2. Can I offer the opponent a Temptetion Dice since he automatically failed the roll or does he not have to make a saving throw at all?

[azdimy]

21 minutes ago, madix said:

I have a quick rules question about using Temptetion Dices. Assumed I wound a unit with a Save of 6+ with an attack with Rend -2. Can I offer the opponent a Temptetion Dice since he automatically failed the roll or does he not have to make a saving throw at all?

Yes you can

[Jaskier]

The Temptation Dice say they can't be modified, so to my reading they function like Tzeentch Destiny Dice; if you offer them a 6 on a failed save roll even if the roll would normally be impossible, it still counts as a passed save, as Rend (what causes it to fail) is a modifier. I would assume it works that way as otherwise Temptation dice get real silly real quick when you smack units with minus to save stacks to bypass their armor completely.