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100 Celestant-Prime

About Unit1126PLL

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  1. I am secretly praying for a Steam Tank army, but I am waiting with apprehension. We'll see what the dawn brings, but for now, let's ride out the darkness.
  2. Here's a question: When considering abstractions, what Toughness does is "how tough is this model to kill?", right? So, given that save value is exactly the same abstraction, why do we need a pair of different abstractions to answer the same question? GW's Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game has no saves - only a "Defense" value against which the opponent must roll. Things like shields and armor modify the rules (for example, a man might be Defense 3, representing the durability of the human body, a man in armor would be Defense 4 because now he's in leathers, a man in Heavy Armor might be Defense 5 because he's harder to kill still in metal... etc). This is an abstraction of "how tough the model is to kill". Age of Sigmar has saves, but no Toughness or Defense value. Things like shields and armor modify the rules (for example, a man with a metal breastplate might be 5+, a man with full plate might be 4+, and a man with a shield might be 4+ re-rolling 1s to improve his toughness still....). This is also an abstraction of "how tough the model is to kill." Why combine both systems? A 3+ (steam tank) is tougher than a 5+ (handgunner in breastplate). A Defense (or toughness) of 6 (Man in heavy armor with a shield in LOTR) is tougher than a Defense (Toughness) of 3 (Man in normal clothes).
  3. I didn't play at Adepticon, but I do routinely play at local narrative events (e.g. Prime Dominion, Animosity, and NOVA) and the presence of "tournament lists" is significantly depressed... heck, even the tournament factions are absent. Last year at NOVA 2018 in the AOS Narrative we had: Nurgle x2 (pretty competitive but not tournament winning) Myself as Slaanesh (before the battletome obviously) Norsca (Slaves to Darkness) Stormcast Eternals Spiderkin (or whatever the grots on spiders are called) Seraphon ... balls, I can't even remember the rest. The point is that we had a ton of fun. The lists were 500 points for the prologue, 1000 points for the main battles, and 1500 points for the final battles before the last scenario, if I recall correctly. You got a custom hero you could spend in-universe currency to improve, and a custom "airship" that you could also spend the currency on upgrades for. The final mission was an airship race that culminated in the confrontation of a Godbeast descending from the heavens above... *ahem* sorry. I really enjoyed it. I guess the point is that the Adepticon stuff you cite is contrary to my own experience with narrative games, and if true, means I likely would not have enjoyed the event.
  4. Oh, I see. I think this is contextual, which is why I didn't identify the difference. For example, a player might find competitive players tolerable at Club Pick-Up-Game Night or the like, but sneer and be snide if a competitive player shows up at an Organized Narrative Event that spans a weekend. In my case, for example, I'm typically fine with competitive players. But if a player shows up with Gristlegore Terrorgheist spam and 5 models (or whatever) at an Animosity narrative event or at AOS Narrative NOVA 2019, I'll probably be salty, especially if I ask "what's the name of that guy" and they say "Royal Terrorgheist" instead of something like "Ancalagon" or whatever, lol. That's just effortless, and you signed up in advance (taking someone else's spot) for a narrative event....
  5. Against my Ironweld Arsenal list, which is different from @Double Misfire's in a few significant ways: 1) Ignore the cannons. Seriously, unlike @Double Misfire, the cannons in my army are a red herring and rarely do much of the heavy lifting. Instead: 2) Kill the Steam Tanks or their support elements. Eliminating the Lord Ordinator and/or the Celestial Hurricanum will shut down the Steam Tank Deathstar in a hurry. The tanks themselves do most of the heavy lifting.
  6. You only need Battleline for Matched Play, not Narrative Play. And it's not impossible to field an Ironweld Arsenal army, even in Matched Play. The Allegiance is "Mixed Order" technically, but if someone asks me what faction I play, I say the Arsenal. Again, it's a case of GW holding back the narrative players, at least the ones that use Matched Play rules. The first one are not really narrative players. They're competitive players, who happen to like a narrative sideboard. The second one are narrative players who like a competitve sideboard. This is probably the most common class, but I don't think they chase the optimal armies to the degree that you claim they do. They don't want blowouts, but they also don't plan around the S-tier armies exclusively, and so don't feel the need to pursue the army wagon with the same vigor as the first category. I am not sure what the difference between the third category and second category is. Is there some reason the person in the second category would not be making an army that is representative of the books? If they are creating an army that is deliberately designed to compete, they're competitive, if they're creating an army that's deliberately designed to tell stories, they're narrative. If they're somewhere in between, then it's a matter of degree. I would also consider myself a member of the third category. The fourth category is hardcore narrative and is admirable.
  7. Right but we're back to the mindset thing. If someone cares about blowout games, then perhaps semi-competitive is a better fit than fully narrative. Narrative players should want to win, and even win hard, but that should only start at the table during scenario setup. When selecting forces ('listbuilding'), your primary concern should be the narrative of the force and not the ability of the force, I would argue, because that's what a narrative mindset means. That is to say: 1) When selecting armies, choose for lore reasons first and 'winningness' second. If you like the lore of (as in my case) the Ironweld Arsenal the most, then build an Ironweld Arsenal force, even if it isn't as 'winning' as, say, Flesh Eater Courts. 2) When selecting units, choose for lore reasons first and 'winningness' second. If, while building your Ironweld Arsenal list (as in my case), you realize that Celestar Ballistae far far outperform cannons, you still bring cannons, because they're Ironweld Arsenal and you're playing them, not Stormcast. I had a huge debate with myself under GHB2018 if I wanted my mixed-order-but-actually-IA list to have Celestar Ballistae or Cannons as its artillery element. I ended up choosing cannons, because they're narratively more sensible to me than Celestar Ballistae were.
  8. Fair enough. I mean it got its points changed in GHB2019 with an asterisk and everything, so I assumed it was deliberate. I'm still not sure it's any good even if it is deliberate, but I wanted to see what whackyness people could come up with even though it may not be good without the Hedonites keyword.
  9. Has anyone else noticed that the old Exalted Keeper of Secrets warscroll from Monstrous Arcanum is still legal for matched play? What are people's thoughts on this? She's missing the Hedonite keyword, which kinda sucks, but she preserves the ridiculously good Command Ability (which can compensate for not-striking-last if you fail the Locus of Diversion roll or the like) and still has a boatload of attacks...
  10. TBF, I don't chase around what is strong, because I don't care so much about non-blowout games. That is also a mindset thing. If I play against the above list with my Ironweld Arsenal and get creamed, that's fine. Unless the narrative for the game is "I destroy the city you are defending" or something equally harmful to my fluff (in which case we'd have to negotiate before the game, perhaps giving me some city walls or something to aid in the defense), then it doesn't really matter if the Glimmerforge loses yet another army. Part of the whole narrative of the city is that it's unique placement gives it a surprisingly strong industrial base, and so the loss of one army is only meaningful because of the loss of the people. Of course, there are certain character's I'd like to preserve the lives of, so we might negotiate that, but in general outside the characters, using the army as slaughter-fodder is kinda the Glimmerforge's way of doing things.
  11. I don't actually play that list, actually, FYI. But it came up in a discussion yesterday locally, so I used it as an example here. What it sounds like you are truly mad about though isn't the list I've proposed, but rather the imbalances caused by Games Workshop. Here is a reply, with myself taking on the role of this hypothetical player: I'm not writing the backstory to feel better about myself. I don't need to justify myself to other people. I wrote the backstory because I truly and earnestly love the lore of the game, including the idea of a deluded cult of half-naked woman shedding blood on behalf of their God, Morathi Khaine. It's WAAC now, sure, but it won't always be and wasn't always before. Unfortunately, the game is imbalanced enough that even myself, who loves the lore and their army and have no competitive goal (you don't win Best General at narrative events), still makes it unfun for my opponent. But, crucially, that is Games Workshop's fault, not my own. There's nothing unfluffy about the list I proposed above (save perhaps the idea that Wytch Elves will travel around in EXACTLY 30 PERSON GROUPS but that's hardly a critcism exclusive to this army list). Yet it will crush a narrative list built out of components of, say, the Ironweld Arsenal (which is actually what I as a poster play, by the way. I also play Slaanesh narratively, but that's a story for another time). The difference is in mindset, not lists.
  12. I generally agree with the decoupling of the competitive mindset. Let me give you an example of 2 lists: 3x30 Wytch Elves, 3 Hag Queens, 1 Caultron of Blood. All the heroes are named with little half-page backstories, and is located in Chamon, where it was established due to the temple fervently believing the metallic blood of the local creatures was more satisfying to Khaine than regular blood. They typically hunt in large groups of wytches to bring down such beastly foes, and the metallic blood gives them increased durability when they drink from their goblets (reflected in-game by the Hagg-Nar rules). 3x30 Wytch Elves, 3 Hag Queens, 1 Cauldron of Blood using Hagg-Nar. Built for a local tournament. One of these is competitive, and one if them is narrative, despite the actual on-paper lists being literally identical.
  13. Oh my God you are right. At least it gets cover now if it is in terrain though, so whee 3+ save.
  14. So I have an interesting 2000-point list I'd like to run past you guys. I may have posted it earlier but I have a few games under my belt now, and it might contribute to some Ironweld Arsenal tactica or whatnot discussion. It'll have unit entries and then the description of their function. I will also organize it by unit importance / list cores, rather than the traditional way. List Core: 3 Steam Tanks Use: These machines are basically the reason the list exists, both theme-wise (love my tanks) but also function wise. The vehicles offer hard-hitting combat power, anti-horde and anti-monster shooting on a single platform, and have great durability. The manner of use in games depends on my opponent's deployment of course, but if my opponent obliges the best-case scenario is deployment of all 3 tanks on one flank, supported by their support elements (to follow). I don't place them entirely on the flank - typically they straddle the central and flank thirds of the board - because I need their armored bulk to cover the rest of my squishy army from bad things. But concentrating them in a single off-center point allows me to avoid the worst enemy anti-behemoth units, while still offering the fairly long-ranged cannons the ability to engage the highest threat first. Threats: Typically, these tanks do not go down easily, even to traditional "threats." Of course, letting truly anti-behemoth things into combat is nasty (e.g. the 6-mw-doing Terrorgheist), but once that style of threat is identified, the tanks themselves are often their own best defense. They have a very powerful (if unreliable unbuffed) long-ranged attack in the Steam-Overpressured cannon. Indeed, I prefer to fire it at monsters rather than hordes; it is the only cannon in the game that can get a damage re-roll against single-model units due to its overpressure rule. Typically, if my opponent is running multiple behemoths, I will use the tanks to focus them down one at a time, with the rest of the list providing covering fire and charge intercepts/blocking from the others. The power of the tank cannons can mitigate threats very well if they are given buffs - between the high Wound, high Rend, and re-rollable d6 damage, they're devastating against single-model targets. Offense: The unbuffed Steam Tank is not reliable. It's got big numbers for the Wound and Rend values for its cannon, and a big number for the Wound value for its steam gun, but the parts of the statlines that are unreliable are the To-Hit for both weapons, the Damage for the cannon, and the Shots for the steam gun. The commander's long rifle is the only reliable shooting on the vehicle. Its close-combat is also unreliable, with its Wound value being alright, its Rend value being alright, and its Damage value being alright, but none really are ace. So what buffs would make the steam tank good, and how do we get them? Support: The Steam Tank goes from unreliable (and mediocre) to amazing if properly supported. In all of my games, my opponents have been completely flabbergasted at just how effective the steam-tanks are. Under their belt they have two Engines of the Gods, a Slaan, and a Bastilodon, Arkhan the Black and loads of undead (e.g. skeletons, chainrasps), a Great Unclean One and Nurgle Daemon Prince (as well as the plaguebearers on gigantic flies - the names of the unit escapes me), a Celestar Ballista and loads of Stormcast, and others besides. The needed buffs are To-Hit and Random Value Rerolls. Fortunately, the second buff is available on the steam-tank itself from the beginning of the game. Steam Overpressure makes the cannon re-roll its damage always (putting its damage in the Reliable category), makes its Steam Gun re-roll number of shots (putting it in the reliable category as well), and makes the Crushing Wheels and Ironclad Bulk re-roll its number of attacks. Automatically, the steam tank is slightly more reliable. However, as mentioned in the Offense discussion, the To-Hit is lacking. So? Lord Ordinator and Celestial Hurricanum are your friends. Celestial Hurricanum is a war-machine, meaning it benefits from Greywater Fastness (which you were taking anyways right?) and puts out tons of mortal wounds with its shooting attack (especially if you get the 6 to shoot again in the Hero Phase). If my opponent obliges and allows me to deploy the 3 Steam Tanks together, I can stuff the Celestial Hurricanum and the Lord Ordinator behind them to get them to hit on a 2+ with all their weapons. That's the death-star that has surprised people before. Defense: The Steam Tank is one of the toughest behemoths in the game. Why? Two reasons: War Machine keyword and 3+ armour. There are, of course, tougher behemoths out there depending on buffs, but the unbuffed Steam Tank is a terror on the battlefield with it's 12 wounds (higher than most of the durability-focused behemoths like the Bastilodon). Why does the War Machine keyword help? Because so much stuff works on Monsters and Heroes but not on machines! Just to offer a few examples: the Slaanesh Hunter of Godbeasts command trait gives +1 damage against Monsters to all the Keeper of Secret's melee weapons. So useless against a Steam Tank. The Slayer of Kings on Archaon? Only kills Monsters and Heroes instantly. Your double-sixes against the Steam Tank mean nothing. There are plenty of examples of things that work on Monsters and Heroes which are utterly useless against the steam-tank and people typically take things in their anti-behemoth role that do this. I've surprised many opponents whose "anti-behemoth" mechanism was really just anti-monster. There are many more things that only work against Monsters than things that work only against War Machines. Furthermore, with the 3+ save on the tank, the things that do hit you are not reliable. Remember the Slayer of Kings that rolled 2 6s to wound from before? Not only does it not slay you instantly like it would almost every other behemoth, but you get an easy 4+ against them! Fail one and who cares? You've got 12 wounds. 3 damage is scary, but not nearly as bad as the re-rollable d6 you're doing back every turn, hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s with -2 rend! Gotta love putting that cannonball right through Archaon's chest. List Vital Support: Celestial Hurricanum with Battlemage Lord Ordinator Use: These two are the support elements. However, they offer some utility of their own in addition to making the Steam Tanks amazing. The Lord Ordinator offers considerable combat power to the tanks - 6 extra attacks with the ability to drop d3 Mortal Wounds isn't anything to sneeze at, and he can fit in the same combat as at least a couple of tanks, giving them the buff and contributing to their power. The Celestial Hurricanum is another beast entirely, considerably more useful than the Lord Ordinator (but with a price tag to match!). Beyond the obvious +1-to-hit aura, the uses I have for the Celestial Hurricanum is as a spell-bot for denying and casting Mystic Shield, a gun platform to deal loads of mortal wounds (seriously this guy can be terrifying with Greywater Fastness), and a durable General. Threats: Generally, anything. The Lord Ordinator can go down to a stiff breeze, and if the enemy can krump the Steam Tanks, the Celestial Hurricanum is not going to endure their attentions for long either. However, skirmish units, small flankers, battle-line shooting units, etc. are not really threats to these guys as you might expect, given their adequate saves and high wounds-count. Keep them behind the Steam Tanks if possible though, and use the wall of metal to endure the enemy melee attacks. Offense: Mediocre. The Lord Ordinator is adequate for needs in combat, but not dependable (can sometimes be funny with Meteoric Slam). The Celestial Hurricanum can be an unholy terror with Greywater Fastness, or it can be somewhat useless. However, it's important to note that it's a reliable source of mortal wounds, and this an be vital for stripping the final few wounds off of a badly hurt enemy who you wouldn't want to waste a re-rolling cannonball's damage on. Support: These guys are the support! However, it is important to screen them, preferably with the tanks, but battle-line units can work in a pinch. Defense: Fair. They can endure most enemy attacks capable of reaching out and touching them. Battle-line shooters aren't good against 4+ saves, typically, which both the Lord Ordinator and the Celestial Hurricanum have. Furthermore, I usually give the Hurricanum the Phoenix Stone artefact and the Tenacious command trait, which gives it 12 wounds to match the tanks and makes it a less attractive "shoot this first" option. Put them behind the tanks, who can absorb the worst of the enemy's storm, and use things like the Storm of Shemek from the Hurricanum to provide final protective fires if degraded-but-naughty enemy units come too close. List Fire Support: Ironweld Arsenal Cannon Ironweld Arsenal Cannon Gunmaster Use: These guys are the "long range fire support" (don't get too mad! I know they only barely outrange the tanks themselves, but bear with me). Typically, they are deployed behind my Battleline in the middle of the board, to the left or right of the tanks, in a little castle with the engineer in range of both cannons. In early turns, they might even benefit from the Hurricanum's +1 to-hit, though the Lord Ordinator is typically standing out of range by the tanks. At any rate, they provide a few useful tools to the list. Firstly, they can engage and soften up enemy hordes that approach the tanks to make them ripe for steam-gunning. Re-rolling damage against units of 10 or more means they're just as good as the steam tanks at long-range horde clearing, while the tanks are better at single-target damage with their always-on reroll. So let the tanks fire at enemy single-model units, and let the cannons handle the enemy infantry. Secondly, they provide another source of long-range damage. If the enemy brings too many behemoths, the tanks may not offer enough firepower alone to stop something scary from getting close - but with the range of these cannons, they can cover the tanks' flanks in a pinch. They may not get damage re-rolls, but they still pack enough output to give almost anyone less durable than Morathi pause. Thirdly, these guys are a distraction. Sorry to say it, but the tanks dramatically outperform them every game. Artillery, though, with its vulnerable crews, is easily rendered inert by enemy shooting, so things that would probably be better off shooting at or maneuvering around the tanks instead oftentimes gets hopelessly distracted trying to kill this artillery. If you want to spend 2 turns of a five-turn game ****** around with 400 points of artillery, be my guest, but I'm going to ram the steam-tanks down your throat while you do! Threats: Fast movers and enemy shooting. Fast movers will often try to work their way around the flanks of my very-compact battleline (or simply fly over it) to kill these guys. Enemy shooting can shoot over the battleline to kill these guys as well, and that happens commonly. Remember, though, that this is only 400 points. If it distracts two Bastiladons for 1 turn, or 1 for 2 turns, that's fine with me. That's nearly 600 points that could probably do a number on my Celestial Hurricanum, Lord Ordinator, or Steam Tanks who are instead faffing about trying to get in range of artillery that outranges them and can move away. Meanwhile, the Steam Tanks are in range of nearly everything as they move up the board and hit like a truck. Offense: Pretty good. They're not benefiting from the +1 to-hit auras like they typically would in other lists, but they have the Engineer stuffed between the cannons to give them re-rolls. Their output is fairly reliable, with the only point of failure being the damage, but firing at 10-model units or greater mitigates this as well, giving the guns re-rolls. Don't be afraid to fire them at anything and everything that looks at you funny. And if you drive the enemy to ground where you can't shoot them because of LOS blocking terrain? That's a win, because they are hiding instead of maneuvering to gain and advantage. Besides, you've got your own tanks to flush them out of cover... Support: None needed, really. The engineer is kind of his own self-contained little mini-support within this artillery battery, but just stick both cannons next to him and blast away from midboard. Defense: Pretty awful. The crews are horribly vulnerable, and there's not much to be done about that. Still, stick 'em behind a battleline to keep melee away and use their firepower and that of the tanks as a form of shield. Think of it as the enemy deserving to kill these guys if they can get through the shot and shell being flung their way! List Batteline: 5 Liberators 10 Freeguild Guard (swords and shields) 10 Glade Guard Use: These guys are use for filling the mandatory battle-line slots in the list. No, really, that's they're primary function. However, they do offer some bit of utility in other ways! The Liberators exist solely for fluff reasons - the Lord Ordinator's not travelling alone. If you don't like fluff, bring more Freeguild or ... really anything. Even so, the Liberators are a durable battle-line that isn't afraid to get stuck in when necessary. The Freeguild Guard offer similar durability (at least in combat, with a 4+ and re-rolling 1s) but also have the incredibly useful countercharge ability which makes them excellent for protecting both the cannons and the tanks, depending on where you need them. This is especially useful with the tanks - typically, an enemy will use the "one big model" base to pile-in around it and do shenanigans like punching my poor innocent Celestial Hurricanum who was hiding behind his big tank brother. However! Do a d6 countercharge from near this tank and touch the enemy with one of your Freeguild and suddenly they find themselves pinned in place! Lastly, the Glade Guard offer what I call "chaff" shooting - they are fantastic at finishing off that one skink that lived through your steam guns, or using their 1/game -3 rend shot to take the last few wounds off a crippled enemy behemoth or the like. In other words, they're a way to put shots downrange that isn't as expensive as wasting an entire artillery shell. Threats: Both whatever, and irrelevant. None of these battle-lines are terribly more or less durable than any other, but they mostly exist to stand on objectives and die valiantly. The Glade Guard are more vulnerable than the others, but are also one of the most expendable parts of the list. Sure, they're not Skinks. Still, whenever my enemy fires at them or charges them specifically I can't help but smile at the time they're wasting, and this goes for all the battlelines in this list. They exist to be annoying and gum up enemy movement - if they want to gum up their shooting and spellcasting also by targeting them, be my guest. Offense: Pitiful, but useful for finishing off damaged units. Don't forget the one shot the Glade Guard get at -3 rend out to 20" - perfect for supporting the tanks who might have other priorities than a badly damaged behemoth or the like. Also remember that only one model must stand nearish to the Hurricanum to get the +1 to-hit buff. Support: Support? What support? Why bother investing much into what amounts to meat-shields? Sure, they can incidentally benefit from the Celestial Hurricanum, and the cannon fire from behind them can destroy some of the approaching threats, but there's no real support dedicated to these guys. Just remember you can spend a CP if your Gunmaster is near enough to them to keep them steady, and there's not a whole lot of use for CP in this army. Defense: The Liberators and Freeguild Guard are surprisingly durable for battle-line units. Their offense might not be worth much, but they excel at being meat to grind into the enemy. Even something like a Bastiladon or Engine of the Gods is unlikely to completely wipe-out the Freeguild or Liberators. And remember, simply by existing and attracting enemy attention, these units are succeeding. The Glade Guard are essentially helpless if something goes after them; remember, though, that if the opponent is dorking around with your lesser units, he's not stopping the wall of ANGERY IRON driving straight down his gullet. And that's it! The 2000 point Ironweld Arsenal list. Unconventional battle-line choices, with heavy weight towards Steam Tanks and making the Steam Tanks great (again?)!
  15. I just want the GHB2019 to have Battleline steam tanks. If other people get behemoth Battlelines why can't we?
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