The "mortals redesign" Discussion

[CommissarRotke]

15 hours ago, Rhivan said:

As someone who was really hype about potentially getting new Cities I find myself pretty disappointed with them. Largely because I love historical arms and armor. Something I love about the Empire and Brettonia is how historically accurate the armors are. With the new models they aren't historically accurate, which is unfortunate. But they also look really rough and bulky. When I see them I feel like I'm looking at what Fallout Raiders would wear if they knew what medieval arms and armor looked like.

When I read rumors that they were a mirror to the Chaos Legionnaires I got really excited because Chaos Legionnaires look honestly amazing and are a fantastic blend of WH Chaos, and actual historical designs.

Pretty sure the Empire and Bretonnia were never as accurate as we'd think, and there are actual Historical Wargames if you want that accuracy. These new dudes likely have historical accuracies for a different time period, just as Empire and Bretonnia had some for their own periods.

Someone mentioned earlier in here the Empire state troops only look like that because they're from a time period where guns were rampant so armor didn't make sense. The new ones look rough and bulky because foot troops got armor back when there weren't many guns.

[Baron Klatz]

16 hours ago, Rhivan said:

When I see them I feel like I'm looking at what Fallout Raiders would wear if they knew what medieval arms and armor looked like.

I mean…that would fit.

Age of Sigmar is literally a daemonic post-apocalyptic setting.

Many realmscapes are eldritch wastelands with daemon bikers about so medieval Fallout soldiers fit to a T.

 

[Clan's Cynic]

Even as somebody who prefers more grounded, less flashy designs, I'm pretty let down by them. I still can't quite put my finger on why exactly, but they're not clicking the way... say, the new Deathrattle Skeletons did. 

I do find it kind of ironic that the Empire/Freeguild models were so often bashed here as being 'generic' (despite the Landsknecht designs being pretty uncommon, especially outside of historical miniatures) and a lot of people celebrated the idea of them being squatted so that AoS would get something 'unique and weird' and ultimately what we got turned out to be a far more generic and bland city-guard who could easily be used in just about any other fantasy tabletop game or RPG without much fuss.

They're also way too busy. They suffer from the modern GW obsession with detail for the sake of detail. Again, the new Deathrattle largely escape this - they're a very modern take on an ancient kit but don't feel drowned in unnecessary detail and have just enough to say "this is a new sculpt." There's just too much going on, especially for your basic chaff, which I can't imagine is going to be a lot of fun to paint for a new army project if it remains a horde army.

Like I said in the Rumours Thread, I'll have to wait to see the full unit and them alongside the rest of the range but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Clan's Cynic

[Vasshpit]

I think that bare head options are going to be a big hit with them and im reaaaalllly hoping there's enough in the kit or even in the kit. 

I like them because of their genericness for the most part and I'm excited to see more. 

[JackStreicher]

21 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

I think that bare head options are going to be a big hit with them and im reaaaalllly hoping there's enough in the kit or even in the kit. 

I like them because of their genericness for the most part and I'm excited to see more. 

I am hoping for different helmets. If not I‘ll make stls for them

[Baron Klatz]

59 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I can't imagine is going to be a lot of fun to paint for a new army project if it remains a horde army.

 

I doubt they’re a horde army. After zombies I think AoS horde releases are over until a Skaven refresh.(especially at the price rate and then staunchly staying to 10 troops a box)

They’re just as heavy armored as the Deathrattle who put a bar on hordes in the first place and compared to the old Empire militia these might as well be knight errants.

Won’t be surprised if they add a few extra lore elements to help them like those heraldry diamonds are magic plates carve from the metaliths to reflect blows and make them last longer against their daemon & demigod foes.

The I can imagine next stuff is like shielded gunners, chimera lancers, and other stuff that look more mundane but have enough effects for that “AoS cranks everything up to 12” theme.

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I do find it kind of ironic that the Empire/Freeguild models were so often bashed here as being 'generic' (despite the Landsknecht designs being pretty uncommon, especially outside of historical miniatures) and a lot of people celebrated the idea of them being squatted so that AoS would get something 'unique and weird' and ultimately what we got turned out to be a far more generic and bland city-guard who could easily be used in just about any other fantasy tabletop game or RPG without much fuss.

I wouldn't call the new freeguild bland; they have great poses and the faces manage to have a good amount of character to them as well. The old not-HRE troops were always bland (just as bland even), and TBH I think other fantasy settings trying not to look like Warhammer are probably why the new troops look "generic" to people now. Because Warhammer's been defined by these weirdly unarmored dudes for decades it is now hard to conceive of human troops that aren't pseudo-historicals.

And for all of the complaints about pricing. Looking generic is good yes? It means even simpler proxies and STLS to fit into the AOS human aesthetic? At least, that's the way I'd take it.

[Noserenda]

Its more "realistic" armour coverage but i wouldnt call them particularly historically accurate, they seem out of one of a dozen generic feeling fantasy worlds, which is pretty sad given that warhammer was once one of the pioneers of stepping out of that design space with the Landsknecht inspired Empire troops.

I guess the lowest common denominator does sell though.

Are these even meant to be freeguild though? 

[RyantheFett]

Like they said a few times their aim was for a quickly assembled and heavily armored look thrown in with a lot of skulls because of all the death. I like the look, but do think it is a bit safe/generic for a setting that has so much advance teck and crazy setting.

Honestly I also find them to look too much like a Bretonnia or other Old World faction.

[Acrozatarim]

They're just as 'historically accurate' as old Empire models were, inasmuch as the phrase is worth anything; they're drawing more heavily from the 14th-15th Century Burgundians, by the appearance of things, with bits and pieces influenced by other regions and centuries. Only their shield designs really throw things off.

[Asbestress]

Imo if this is really a Lumineth style reimagining of the current human range I'd say the basic troops being comparatively bland (though detailed) is a strength rather than a weakness (even the standard Lumineth infantry aren't far removed from bog standard generic "high elf pikeman"), and I think it will be the more elite units that make or break this refresh in terms of fresh aesthetics (like the Cow Golem or Cow Helmets or Flying Cloud Mage or Literally a Suit of Armour for Lumineth).

Imagine these relatively bland troops flanking an enormous extravangantly decorated Steam-driven War Altar! Or supporting a realm-stone shell shooting massive bombard! Or surrounding a squad of elite Greatswords whose armour is covered head to toe in finely detailed Azyrite markings (maybe with gargoyle covered shoulderpads?)!

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

With some minor sculpting you could just use DKOK models like I am. Provides a completely different, nice light armored look.

[Baron Klatz]

You know since they ended up using the War of the Sky Portal soldiers from the 2018 artwork-

-I wonder if this strange background priest from the 2017 Living City artwork is also planned?

(embedded link is case my phone one goes wonky 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/423561353115074571/1090143280857100358/0441596F-0E8E-4200-9BBD-96CF757AB1D5.png )

Edited March 28, 2023 by Baron Klatz

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

I doubt they’re a horde army. After zombies I think AoS horde releases are over until a Skaven refresh.(especially at the price rate and then staunchly staying to 10 troops a box)

They’re just as heavy armored as the Deathrattle who put a bar on hordes in the first place and compared to the old Empire militia these might as well be knight errants.

I suspect the new Freeguild will be at least horde-compatible. By which I mean, you can probably field 100+ models in a list fairly easily. However, I think they will be about as elite as OBR or DOK on average, so kinda mid range. The real bar for horde factions in AoS 3 seems to be whether or not they have a 20 model increment battleline, which I suspect we won't see (Flagellants maybe?).

12 hours ago, Acrozatarim said:

They're just as 'historically accurate' as old Empire models were, inasmuch as the phrase is worth anything; they're drawing more heavily from the 14th-15th Century Burgundians, by the appearance of things, with bits and pieces influenced by other regions and centuries. Only their shield designs really throw things off.

Yeah, the shields are the only real fantasy element of the new design. Everything else, to me, just looks like certain design elements being bulkier or otherwise exaggerated to increase readability of details at 28mm scale. Warhammer is, after all, well known for having exaggerated proportions (although the old Freeguild are much more guilty of this, with their huge hands and heads).

The new shields are kind of fanciful. The shape is a more angular, exaggerated heater shield, so it's not total fantasy (it would work as  a shield, probably). The old advice for painting impactful models is "faces, bases, banners and shields", and that applies to sculpting as well. I suspect it's the reason why the shields stand out so much from the more historically inspired rest of the model: They are going to be the first thing you notice in when you see them in person and they need to communicate the faction's identity: Industrious, practical, everymen, but also conveying their artisanal pride in through their armaments.

[Beliman]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Yeah, the shields are the only real fantasy element of the new design. Everything else, to me, just looks like certain design elements being bulkier or otherwise exaggerated to increase readability of details at 28mm scale. Warhammer is, after all, well known for having exaggerated proportions (although the old Freeguild are much more guilty of this, with their huge hands and heads).

That's exactly my understanding too. The whole concept is more gritty and dark than previous "normal dudes" from the empire, even with the cartoon-y face.

Edited March 28, 2023 by Beliman

[CommissarRotke]

18 hours ago, Acrozatarim said:

they're drawing more heavily from the 14th-15th Century Burgundians

not that I didn't believe people, but I did not realize how close! can't wait to see the full unit

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Thanks for that artwork... those new Dawnbringer are not just "inspired by 15th century burgundians", they're pretty much carbon copies in a fantasy setting.

Another well known inspiration (to me) of these new Sigmarite humans, is Berserk. The gritty medieval, "down to business" look, but still quite well armored, seems straight out of a Miura drawing. It's even more fitting since both are ordinary humans facing off against demons, monsters in an unforgiving world. They even have the rumoured bombards coming with the rest of the range ! Very pleasing for me as Berserk is one of my favourite fantasy works of all time. 

 

I hope GW goes with this inspiration even further, and we get some of the other the top, intricately ornate armors and weapons like those the manga is known for. Give me some fancy Sigmarite drip !

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Noserenda]

They really dont have much more than passing similarities side by side, the chest armour and upper legs maybe? Even the helmets are slightly off as the guy on the right has pulled his up off his eyes.

Something i noticed when looking closely though is how irregular their armour is outside of the mail shirt (and ball slapper ) and chest armour (which is very covered) which kinda implies the core of their armour is issued munition stuff and they scavenge/buy the rest of their armour?  That said its a small sample size so far.

Gotta say mail on modern minis is reeeeally nice

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Looks like they are wearing kettle helmets.

I believe the intention was to show something similar. In the art and miniatures I see people similarly equipped in layers of armor, mostly plate, with tunics and such overlayed to display colors and heraldry. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

7 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Something i noticed when looking closely though is how irregular their armour is outside of the mail shirt (and ball slapper ) and chest armour (which is very covered) which kinda implies the core of their armour is issued munition stuff and they scavenge/buy the rest of their armour?  That said its a small sample size so far.

I think it also emphasizes that a lot of the products of the Cities of Sigmar are made by individual craftspeople, not produced in a factory according to some standardized template. The Soulbound books talk about that occasionally. They also mention that it is common for the artisans of the cities to work with whatever materials they have at hand, like Firewood in Aqshi or bone in Shyish, both because it is necessary since they have to be self reliant, but also because these materials are usually the most suited to withstand the magical energies of the realm from which they originate. This is supposed to give Freeguilds in different realms a significantly different appearance.

They also mention that, although the crafts of the cities are by necessity utilitarian, artisans frequently express their pride in their work through small decorations and details. I don't know about you, but I think I can see that in the new models.

[CommissarRotke]

13 hours ago, Noserenda said:

They really dont have much more than passing similarities side by side,

it's not exact sure, but the inspiration is clear. the style of armoring is quite close: armored legs and arms, breastplate/tunic over chainmail, helmet coverage/shape all match up.

 

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

They also mention that it is common for the artisans of the cities to work with whatever materials they have at hand, like Firewood in Aqshi or bone in Shyish

now that you mention this... the sergeant's hammer-head has a bone inset and looks painted to be a bone handle, while the axe head is all metal and is on a darker wood. NICE touch. Y'all are making me want these more and more 😅

[NinthMusketeer]

Well I for one really like them, think they look cool & unique in a lot of good ways.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

I had this thought pop up in the back of my head, and I felt like it was worth sharing.

I think there's going to be some aesthetic common points shared by the new Cities mortals and the SCE. Beyond the fact that they both worship the same god, I could see some of the humans trying to "emulate" the superhuman Stormcasts by copying some of their aesthetic. Like, maybe a helmet that ressembles the golden face masks of the SCE, lightning motives, the stylised face of Sigmar, etc. Maybe not on everyone, but I could see the fancier humans (those that could in universe buy this kind of drip) having some of this. What do you think ?

[CommissarRotke]

i would be surprised if there weren't ANY design cues from Stormcast yeah! i'm expecting the inspirations mainly on the more priestly or fervent/martial kits--most likely heroes and maybe an elite knightly unit? not sure how I'd feel about flagellants getting redone; I guess they always have some kind of place in Warhammer's worlds but...again, it would be great to see a different take on (Sigmarite) worship happen in AOS that isn't mortals driven mad.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

I am not worried about the new flagellants. I genuinely believe they are coming : GW has done an entire Dawnbringer Preview on Sigmarite religion, bringing the example of the Cult of the Wheel. Whatever comes, be it "flagellants 2.0" or a different take on sigmarite worship, I think I'll be blown away. I have 100% faith in the GW sculptors on this one, whatever they do, it'll turn out great I'm sure. Definitely expecting something more grimdark about them though.

2 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

i would be surprised if there weren't ANY design cues from Stormcast yeah! i'm expecting the inspirations mainly on the more priestly or fervent/martial kits--most likely heroes and maybe an elite knightly unit?

A unit of knightly crusaders of Sigmar LARPing as Stormcasts would be very thematic and cool ! And if this does not come in the official kits, people will convert them I'm sure.