Price increase on GW Products (coming 7th March)

[Rachmani]

On 2/15/2022 at 12:32 PM, Greybeard86 said:

@Noserenda There are plenty of very nice centerpieces, but they are resin based mostly AFAIK. Take a look at top miniatures in the minipainting subreddit. I can find dragons, demons and amazing monsters that are at the same level as GW (I posted an example below

In any case, all I am saying is that I welcome the massive etsy & related competition that is coming. 3d printers are not as good as the current mass production GW is capable of (they cost more, take longer, it is simply not comparable tech atm). But they are good enough that, coupled with GW's insane market power fueled prices, they can put up a fight.

Now we just need to kill the reticence to accept 3rd party kits in tournaments. It is the last holdout for GW, honestly. Plenty of groups / clubs already accept them, but the idea that you won't be able to travel with them (to tournies and some stores) still hurts adoption,

I want GW to have to compete with these fantastic outside options. Sometimes, I choose GW. Other times, I don't want to pay more for something that is, IMO, inferior. That is the ideal scenario for the hobby.

They have a grip on the miniatures used, because in most people's mind the game, lore etc. is linked to the miniatures. 

And it's understandable, reasonable even, to a degree. Third party competition (meaning alternative miniatures for system X) is in a way always cannibalizing someone else's intellectual property. (I also think that on an Etsy level it simply doesn't matter iRL, but we'll pretend it does, for the sake of the argument.)

The problem is, however, that GW is not up to snuff and sells old stuff at a premium. That behavior basically forces competition to exist and diminishes the value of their own IP. In a way, GW pushes for competition to exist through corporate behavior, even though they so strongly oppose it.

In the same sense, price hikes - whether reasonable or not - are perceived as bad when potential customers already had the feeling that they weren't getting their money's worth. I experience it myself. I'm in the blessed situation that I can basically buy as much GW as I want without giving it a thought. So when I want to build Kruleboys, sculpts I love, I buy them when I need/want them. But there is no power GW could possibly evoke that could make me buy the old free guild stuff (or the not Thunderstrike Stormcast, for that matter). And if that means I can't field them in a tournament (because I can't 3rd party proxy) etc., it means I won't play that army. And if someone who has had the fortune of being well off thinks that way, how will the rest of their customers think? And *that* is completely their fault.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Rachmani

[CommissarRotke]

So to add some info to this discussion... I was sent this screenshot today by a friend. It seems to be from this website: https://markets.ft.com/data/equities/tearsheet/financials?s=GAW:LSE

For those of us who aren't business-inclined, this essentially means GW is making 41p per 1 pound sterling they sell. Looking into operating margins themselves, I found that this percentage is "sector dependent" and so while there's no one-size percentage, 41% is still on the larger side of these margins.

Checking on Apple as another type of luxury product, it sits around 25-30% operating margin over the years. Again making 41% a huge margin. And this including an entire department of repair & support for their devices.

This I think is the best evidence that GW does not actually need to raise prices, and if they want to, then they need to back it up with better support systems for their games. (I am also wondering what this means for employee and contractor pay as well).

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by CommissarRotke
clarified 41%

[OG SCE]

5 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

For those of us who aren't business-inclined, this essentially means GW is making 41p per 1 pound sterling they sell.

Honestly, I find a lot of GW products expensive.  In many cases, they are more expensive than I would like to pay.  So, I tend to spend a lot on the second hand market.

ASFAIK Operating Margin comes before tax.  So, I'd be more interested in seeing the Gross Profit Margin. 

I wonder if we, as a community, could agree upon how many cents on the dollar / pennies on the pound should earn.  30-40 seems appropriate to me.

I'd like my toys to be cheaper, but 30-40% seems appropriate to me.

[Greybeard86]

On 2/19/2022 at 5:13 PM, Rachmani said:

They have a grip on the miniatures used, because in most people's mind the game, lore etc. is linked to the miniatures. 

And it's understandable, reasonable even, to a degree. Third party competition (meaning alternative miniatures for system X) is in a way always cannibalizing someone else's intellectual property. (I also think that on an Etsy level it simply doesn't matter iRL, but we'll pretend it does, for the sake of the argument.)

The problem is, however, that GW is not up to snuff and sells old stuff at a premium. That behavior basically forces competition to exist and diminishes the value of their own IP. In a way, GW pushes for competition to exist through corporate behavior, even though they so strongly oppose it.

In the same sense, price hikes - whether reasonable or not - are perceived as bad when potential customers already had the feeling that they weren't getting their money's worth. I experience it myself. I'm in the blessed situation that I can basically buy as much GW as I want without giving it a thought. So when I want to build Kruleboys, sculpts I love, I buy them when I need/want them. But there is no power GW could possibly evoke that could make me buy the old free guild stuff (or the not Thunderstrike Stormcast, for that matter). And if that means I can't field them in a tournament (because I can't 3rd party proxy) etc., it means I won't play that army. And if someone who has had the fortune of being well off thinks that way, how will the rest of their customers think? And *that* is completely their fault.

I am not sure I understand the point. Is it that by being "well off" prices don't matter as much to you? Or that no one can force you to buy sculpts you do not like?

As for 3rd party sculpts "cannibalizing someone else's intellectual property", that is pretty much what GW did to grow. Every single science-fantasy or medieval-fantasy idea they included was recycled from existing tropes, in a more or less thinly disguised way (aliens - tyranid, ork - orcs, and so on). The universe eventually grew to have its own identity but if others had been as trigger happy with copyrights we wouldn't have had warhammer at all. Same for many of the Tolkien-inspired franchises that resulted in dragonlance, forgotten realms and many other universes. 

Our rules with our miniatures is strictly a sales ploy and I don't see why we should support it. It is THEIR bottom line, not ours.

 

[CommissarRotke]

On 2/20/2022 at 2:08 AM, OG SCE said:

I'd like my toys to be cheaper, but 30-40% seems appropriate to me.

That 30-40% is after wages are paid though, so definitely a bit too high. 20-25% seems more appropriate.

[JackStreicher]

The prices for most new Eldar miniatures have been leaked.

I initially intended to start the army, but oh boy. A single Eldar core (Battleline) Infantry guy costs 4,10€ (Not counting that hover thingy following them)

a single banshee is at 8,50€ per (infantry) model. Holy hell

I dislike the expression, however no other word can describe it: I am priced out (despite my discount of ~34%) this is insanity!

 

 

[pnkdth]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

The prices for most new Eldar miniatures have been leaked.

I initially intended to start the army, but oh boy. A single Eldar core (Battleline) Infantry guy costs 4,10€ (Not counting that hover thingy following them)

a single banshee is at 8,50€ per (infantry) model. Holy hell

I dislike the expression, however no other word can describe it: I am priced out (despite my discount of ~34%) this is insanity!

 

 

At this point I'll be disappointed if IDK does not get a new whale unit.

[madmac]

30 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

The prices for most new Eldar miniatures have been leaked.

I initially intended to start the army, but oh boy. A single Eldar core (Battleline) Infantry guy costs 4,10€ (Not counting that hover thingy following them)

a single banshee is at 8,50€ per (infantry) model. Holy hell

I dislike the expression, however no other word can describe it: I am priced out (despite my discount of ~34%) this is insanity!

 

 

So the LRL/Slaanesh pricing scheme for every army, is it? I have to say I'm passing on Eldar for similar reasons. Not entirely on price, I also just don't have room for another army, but knowing they would cost an arm and a leg meant I'm not even tempted to dip in.

[Rachmani]

9 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

I am not sure I understand the point. Is it that by being "well off" prices don't matter as much to you? Or that no one can force you to buy sculpts you do not like?

As for 3rd party sculpts "cannibalizing someone else's intellectual property", that is pretty much what GW did to grow. Every single science-fantasy or medieval-fantasy idea they included was recycled from existing tropes, in a more or less thinly disguised way (aliens - tyranid, ork - orcs, and so on). The universe eventually grew to have its own identity but if others had been as trigger happy with copyrights we wouldn't have had warhammer at all. Same for many of the Tolkien-inspired franchises that resulted in dragonlance, forgotten realms and many other universes. 

Our rules with our miniatures is strictly a sales ploy and I don't see why we should support it. It is THEIR bottom line, not ours.

 

I'm well off, so I don't have to worry about prices, but even though I am - and here lies their mistake I think - they'd never get me to buy those old ugly a** sculpts. So even if I like parts of an army (let's take the new Thunderstrike Stormcasts, but Cities of Sigmar, Seraphs or Skaven would be equal examples), I wouldn't buy into it, if I couldn't build something that works well on the tabletop side of things with out those old sculpts - I'm looking at you Longstrikes etc. . So in that sense, they either lose money (as I don't have a fixed hobby budget and stuff I've always wanted to buy instead - I just buy less) or they could give me the incentive to buy some of their stuff by allowing third party miniatures to some degree. (Before you get the wrong impression. It's not that I buy tons of miniatures every month, throwing money at GW. Even though playing the game is important to me, I still paint more than I play etc. I just don't have to do the math when I like a release. Basically I sit down with the army book and if I feel like I can build cool & somewhat good armies with miniatures I like, I buy them and work my way through them. Kruleboys were one of those armies, SCE could have been, but the old stuff is too important, so I opted out.)

The second part of the argument you bring up has some merit in my opinion, but there is still a clear difference between using tropes and going of to create your own IP and blatantly producing third party material for an existing IP. It's still not an easy case though, what is ok and what not, difficult enough in fact, that I'm pretty sure even lawyers would scratch their heads. And you can be all rebel about it (which is fair) but by not agreeing with "our rules with our miniatures" (which, again, I'm not saying you shouldn't) you're also saying "I want to use your universe, your IP, your intellectual property - but I don't want to pay you extra". And that's fine on a personal level, but I wouldn't expect any leeway, support or acceptance from the guys that want to sell you miniatures to their games. And as long as miniatures make up for the majority of income, it will stay that way.

Now, what you should absolutely do and what I 100% support, is branch out, try other games, push for them to get more significant market shares, so that GW gets actual competition. 

P.S. Small producers imo don't hurt anyone and should be left alone. If anything they're the little bit of competition that there is.

P.S.S. I think it was Games Workshop that came up with or at least had a big part in the original design of what would later become the stereotypical "orc". So it's not like their IPs don't get recycled as well.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Rachmani

[Greybeard86]

15 hours ago, Rachmani said:

I'm well off, so I don't have to worry about prices

I think this could be considered a tone-deaf comment, given the thread

15 hours ago, Rachmani said:

there is still a clear difference between using tropes and going of to create your own IP and blatantly producing third party material for an existing IP.

There are many things here worth unpacking.

First, what we do with our miniatures is not something the company can or should try to control, as long as it is within our legal right (which extends far). For example, I imagine some people use GW's minis in DnD games (as using minis in DnD sessions seems to be popular now, it wasn't in my era). Can you imagine if WOTC said that only certain brands could be used for that? There is no legal basis for attempting to control how we play warhammer, but certainly GW is pushing (and succeeding) to get non-GW products out of tournament tables (not everywhere, not all the time).

Second, intellectual property. There is a fine line and it is not about being a "rebel". However, ultimately, one might want to consider exactly why we have intellectual property laws, whether that applies here, and to which extent GW can stop others from producing their own version of the miniatures inspired by GW's lore. It certainly did not stop GW from ripping off fantasy and sci fi ideas early on. And some argue it is the basis for their transition to the wackier AoS races (how on earth can someone pretend to copyright medieval knights chasing the grail or mummy kings). Note, however, that a lot in AoS is actually derivative of what we had in WHFB, or outright the same (lizardmen, orks, elves).

I think that, for this part, it would help to have others bring their experience. If I read a dragonlance book, like it, and start sculpting and selling dragonlance inspired miniatures, can I be sued by WOTC? Obviously the answer is yes if I pretend that my minis are from another company's lines (e.g. recasts). But otherwise, is it forbidden? How does this change with concepts used in multiple franchises, such as elves?

[Rachmani]

6 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

I think this could be considered a tone-deaf comment, given the thread

There are many things here worth unpacking.

First, what we do with our miniatures is not something the company can or should try to control, as long as it is within our legal right (which extends far). For example, I imagine some people use GW's minis in DnD games (as using minis in DnD sessions seems to be popular now, it wasn't in my era). Can you imagine if WOTC said that only certain brands could be used for that? There is no legal basis for attempting to control how we play warhammer, but certainly GW is pushing (and succeeding) to get non-GW products out of tournament tables (not everywhere, not all the time).

Second, intellectual property. There is a fine line and it is not about being a "rebel". However, ultimately, one might want to consider exactly why we have intellectual property laws, whether that applies here, and to which extent GW can stop others from producing their own version of the miniatures inspired by GW's lore. It certainly did not stop GW from ripping off fantasy and sci fi ideas early on. And some argue it is the basis for their transition to the wackier AoS races (how on earth can someone pretend to copyright medieval knights chasing the grail or mummy kings). Note, however, that a lot in AoS is actually derivative of what we had in WHFB, or outright the same (lizardmen, orks, elves).

I think that, for this part, it would help to have others bring their experience. If I read a dragonlance book, like it, and start sculpting and selling dragonlance inspired miniatures, can I be sued by WOTC? Obviously the answer is yes if I pretend that my minis are from another company's lines (e.g. recasts). But otherwise, is it forbidden? How does this change with concepts used in multiple franchises, such as elves?

It’s not meant to be tone deaf. In fact the opposite. I wanted to make the argument that prices don’t exist in a vacuum and people of all incomes can be sensitive to what they get in return. So while you might want to pay a premium on the best miniature ever, you certainly wont on 20 year old freeguild. That’s GWs biggest problem. They undermine the strength of their IP by charging a premium but not always delivering on the quality of the product. 
The hobby was always an expensive one. The price hikes exist in a long row of price hikes, met with the same arguments that led to very little. GW stayed the way it was.

You can meet that with different responses. One of which are third party miniatures. To me they are band aid I can sympathise with but they stay a band aid. It‘s an acknowledgment of GWs strength as a gaming system, which they have a strong influence on. They might rip of tropes or other IPs and what not; but in the end, they’re producing it. You bring up WotC and DnD and sure; what you do at home nobody cares about, but try bringing proxy cards to a Magic Tournament?
 

In my opinion, what we really need is strong competition outside GW. Strong games they have no direct influence on, so that through competition their products will become better. (Or something better replaces them.)

Edited February 22, 2022 by Rachmani

[Greybeard86]

8 hours ago, Rachmani said:

It’s not meant to be tone deaf. In fact the opposite. I wanted to make the argument that prices don’t exist in a vacuum and people of all incomes can be sensitive to what they get in return. So while you might want to pay a premium on the best miniature ever, you certainly wont on 20 year old freeguild. That’s GWs biggest problem. They undermine the strength of their IP by charging a premium but not always delivering on the quality of the product. 
The hobby was always an expensive one. The price hikes exist in a long row of price hikes, met with the same arguments that led to very little. GW stayed the way it was.

You can meet that with different responses. One of which are third party miniatures. To me they are band aid I can sympathise with but they stay a band aid. It‘s an acknowledgment of GWs strength as a gaming system, which they have a strong influence on. They might rip of tropes or other IPs and what not; but in the end, they’re producing it. You bring up WotC and DnD and sure; what you do at home nobody cares about, but try bringing proxy cards to a Magic Tournament?
 

In my opinion, what we really need is strong competition outside GW. Strong games they have no direct influence on, so that through competition their products will become better. (Or something better replaces them.)

I do not disagree that competition is needed, I constantly say it. But I truly don’t agree with the statement that GW’s rules are what attracts people to GW. 
 

The MTG example you bring up is quite pertinent. Copies of cards are easy to make, the card itself has little value added. The reason why there isn’t an explosion of proxy cards is because MTG tournies are largely organized by entities that are strongly connected to Hasbro in a comercial sense. Would it be “ilegal” to play warhammer with cardboard cutouts and borrowed rules books? Not at all. How about a tournament like that? Still not illegal. How about now I use one of the many elf mages sold by other companies to stand in for teclis? Nothing ilegal about it.

How we play the game or represent the lore on the table top is completely outside of the legal control by GW. What the company does well is integrating  lore, miniatures and game in a tight coordinated package. The write lore to support their game system and rules to encourage using their miniatures (as well as using stores with vested interests to guarantee it). Many other companies have tighter rules, comparable or superior sculpts. There are very nice fantasy and sci if universes out there. But tying it all together so closely is rare. STar wars does not produce movies to sell models for their miniature games, but GW does. 
 

This, by design, channels people into using the GW package, and not just bits of it (lore, miniatures, rules). It is in GW s interest for us to do that, but they can’t truly force us in a legal sense. So they just create the illusion of it by controlling the tourney scene (recent itc move), sponsoring a certain way of playing (YouTubers, online sites), dictating rules in stores. That makes it look like this is the way to play warhammer. Then, they turn around and use this as a form of market power to price things at far above competitive prices. 
 

It is hard for other companies to crack that nut. Existing popular universes might generate miniature games to some success, but it is unlikely they will start tailoring the novels / movies or whatever to the miniatures. Better miniature systems often lack the wealth of background lore. To be fair, GW universes were pretty bare bones to begin with, they just didn’t have to compete with an existing GW at the time and were free to borrow massively from existing universes with no regards given to IP. 
 

That is why I think that, realistically, competition will come from disentangling the rules / lore / miniatures combo. A world where players shop around more freely for the best universe / miniatures / rules in separation is one where competition is far more likely to flourish. The funny part is that this only depends on us, the players. Nothing is truly stopping us from doing that and I know of people who do it. But of course the visibl3 “official” narrative is set to make it look out of place, purely because of comercial interests.

[Durgin]

5 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

I do not disagree that competition is needed, I constantly say it. But I truly don’t agree with the statement that GW’s rules are what attracts people to GW. 
 

The MTG example you bring up is quite pertinent. Copies of cards are easy to make, the card itself has little value added. The reason why there isn’t an explosion of proxy cards is because MTG tournies are largely organized by entities that are strongly connected to Hasbro in a comercial sense. Would it be “ilegal” to play warhammer with cardboard cutouts and borrowed rules books? Not at all. How about a tournament like that? Still not illegal. How about now I use one of the many elf mages sold by other companies to stand in for teclis? Nothing ilegal about it.

How we play the game or represent the lore on the table top is completely outside of the legal control by GW. What the company does well is integrating  lore, miniatures and game in a tight coordinated package. The write lore to support their game system and rules to encourage using their miniatures (as well as using stores with vested interests to guarantee it). Many other companies have tighter rules, comparable or superior sculpts. There are very nice fantasy and sci if universes out there. But tying it all together so closely is rare. STar wars does not produce movies to sell models for their miniature games, but GW does. 
 

This, by design, channels people into using the GW package, and not just bits of it (lore, miniatures, rules). It is in GW s interest for us to do that, but they can’t truly force us in a legal sense. So they just create the illusion of it by controlling the tourney scene (recent itc move), sponsoring a certain way of playing (YouTubers, online sites), dictating rules in stores. That makes it look like this is the way to play warhammer. Then, they turn around and use this as a form of market power to price things at far above competitive prices. 
 

It is hard for other companies to crack that nut. Existing popular universes might generate miniature games to some success, but it is unlikely they will start tailoring the novels / movies or whatever to the miniatures. Better miniature systems often lack the wealth of background lore. To be fair, GW universes were pretty bare bones to begin with, they just didn’t have to compete with an existing GW at the time and were free to borrow massively from existing universes with no regards given to IP. 
 

That is why I think that, realistically, competition will come from disentangling the rules / lore / miniatures combo. A world where players shop around more freely for the best universe / miniatures / rules in separation is one where competition is far more likely to flourish. The funny part is that this only depends on us, the players. Nothing is truly stopping us from doing that and I know of people who do it. But of course the visibl3 “official” narrative is set to make it look out of place, purely because of comercial interests.

Despite I agree with you for the most, I would like to add another factor that makes GW the tyrant of the market: capillarity.

Ok, Warhammer/warhammer 40k (especially 40k, being the new lore still in development, after they killed their previous and iconic fantasy brand) have a deep and fascinating lore that at the moment can't be matched by other competitors, but I think that the real big gun in GW arsenal is the distribution of their products.

Even if, someday, a new competitor manage to create an amazing range of minis, supported by an amazing game and amazing lore, there is a mountain to climb to become a worthy competitor: being able to make your products available in local stores all around the world, and distribute them at the same pace of GW.

this is a titanic task, don't forget that the only real competitor of Gw in the past, Rackham Confrontation, failed not only because of bad choices (they invested a lot on pre-painted stuff), but above all because of big issues with distributors.

So many hobbyist don't even look around in search for non GW games, nor they start to collect anything but GW products simply because it's not good to invest in an army of "company X" if you know that you will struggle to find a player near to you to play with, or just a community to talk about "company X hobby".

I think that the main power of GW are the many communities all around the world that keep their products alive, a thing that often GW itself doesn't remember.

Then there is obviously all the miniatures&lore factors, but the best lore without a proper support and availability, is not enough to annoy GW.

[JackStreicher]

I’d even argue that the rules of GW games are repelling more people than they attract

and I agree with what @Durgin wrote.

that‘s also why the usual assaults if you give voice to your discontent with GW like „just play another game if you dislike X“ etc. are nonsensical in an almost comedic way.

Sure I could stop and start something else. But what then? Am I going to play against myself because there’s no community to be found for this other game?

[Durgin]

31 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

I’d even argue that the rules of GW games are repelling more people than they attract

and I agree with what @Durgin wrote.

that‘s also why the usual assaults if you give voice to your discontent with GW like „just play another game if you dislike X“ etc. are nonsensical in an almost comedic way.

Sure I could stop and start something else. But what then? Am I going to play against myself because there’s no community to be found for this other game?

 

exactly, and this issue leads to a vicious circle that makes the main reason why is so difficult to really compete against GW: without solid communities that keep your new game/miniatures range alive it's difficult to attract new gamers/hobbyist and this of course avoid the creation of proper communities and so on.

To match GW firepower it needs a big name with an already established industrial production and distribution. I think about Hasbro, for example, or entities like that.

GW wins the war mainly in the logistic field, where it is unmatched and incomparable with any other "competitors".

So here is why small companies prefer to design products that can be used by GW hobbyist as replacements of GW products, it's a safer way to do business.

It's a pity because often many talented and passionate artists and creative work in those small companies, but business is a cruel world and GW is the tyrant of this particular niche.

I don't even hope that the average hobbyist might support the small companies, because this is a hobby so I think that it's more than legit that people just buy the product that has the best support and distribution, nobody wants to invest money on something just to see it taking dust on the shelves because there are no players around.

And even if we imagine a world where all the hobbyists say "****** GW, we all now play the company X game!", probably it would be a disaster because the average small company in the market couldn't even handle, from a production and distribution point of view, such a big demand.

 

[zilberfrid]

Because I am starting a Pathfinder 2 sci fi campaign as an excuse to buy more sci fi stuff, I started getting some Revell kits for kitbashing and terrain.

Kits like the harbor tug and Scharnhorst have shallow details and aren't that exact, but said tug boat is a mold from 1979.

Newer kits like the Star Wars stuff at minifig scale and 1:48 Heinkel HE111 are quite good though, with lots of extra parts and nice detail.

Price difference is also staggering, said Heinkel is a 47cm (1'6") x 34 cm (1'1") beast that I purchased for about the price of an infantry hero (25 euro).

If you want to explore this avenue: 1:48 roughly correlates with 28-32mm heroic models, but if you want to be able to move through them and put based models in it, 1:35 would be better.

https://www.revellspecialist.nl/viking-ship.html could easily give you a beached or sunken ship, broken into the parts you want (otherwise it's a 38cm terrain piece, which isn't convenient at a table).

Edited February 23, 2022 by zilberfrid

[Greybeard86]

42 minutes ago, Durgin said:

 

exactly, and this issue leads to a vicious circle that makes the main reason why is so difficult to really compete against GW: without solid communities that keep your new game/miniatures range alive it's difficult to attract new gamers/hobbyist and this of course avoid the creation of proper communities and so on.

To match GW firepower it needs a big name with an already established industrial production and distribution. I think about Hasbro, for example, or entities like that.

I don't think we should aim to fight fire with fire (bring in another behemoth).

GW does not need to be met in all 4 dimensions at the same time (lore, miniatures, rules, community), we just need to open up some of them. Are GW models too pricey? What is stopping you from buying one of the many giant / gargant alternatives out there then. Do you despise the codex / army book creep and think that other systems do it better? Use one page rules, KoW, 9th age or whatever.

Some of them are a bit more cumbersome (learning new sets of rules for every community is a bit harder), but others are much easier (buy that Etsy's gargant). That is why I insist so much on the tourney and 3rd party kits bit. How on earth have we become so brainwashed that we let companies dictate how we play with our toy soldiers? I understand that GW's machinery is powerful, with their WYSIWYG nonsense and control over tourney hosts and popular venues (everyone wants GW's sponsorhip, from the battle report channel to the commission artist). But I still think we can do better. IMHO, the high prices are, to a large extent, our own fault.

[EccentricCircle]

WotC is an interesting comparison, as the only other gaming company to really be in the same weight class as GW, and with a similarly lengthy history of lore development. However, its worth noting that they have tried repeatedly to break into the mass battle games market with Battlesystem in the 80s and 90s, a "new" Chainmail in the early 2000s, D&D miniatures game throughout the mid 2000s and Dungeon Command in the 2010s. Even with the full weight of D&D's lore behind them, none of those ever came close to rivaling warhammer, even back in the 80s and 90s when warhammer itself was just taking off. Now the reason is pretty clear. They never had a solid all around product like GW has. For much of the early 21st century their miniatures were pretty bad prepainted sculpts. What also didn't help was trying to sell it like Magic booster packs, they just made it hard to collect. By the time they changed tack and released Dungeon Command (with basically the equivalent of an underworlds warband) there wasn't much uptake and the game fizzled after about six warbands. I think the older metal minis from the 20th century attempts were better (comparable with the warhammer of the day), but it didn't take off to the same degree. So it just goes to show that you can't rely on any one of those pillars of rules, models, lore, etc. You need all of it.

[Overread]

One of the larger barriers for the competition which is often overlooked is the distribution system. Right now its my understanding that the big distributor companies (the ones that ship and sell things to retailers) don't like to buy stuff unless its the "new hotness". Fresh new releases like a new model or army or game are easier to sell them on; but wargames often require the continual supply of older stock. Core games, starting factions and such all require a steady support of existing models not just the newest. This can mean that a local store can find it hard to stock the regular and the new products to keep interest in game going. Because the distributor doesn't really want to buy a lot of starter sets that are a year or more "old" just to tick over the supply for new gamers. 

 

GW beats this because they've their own online shop with regional distribution hubs and their own stores in many countries. They can step away from the entire 3rd party market if they wanted and still make good profit from selling direct. 

 

 

[Greybeard86]

53 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

So it just goes to show that you can't rely on any one of those pillars of rules, models, lore, etc. You need all of it.

It depends on the goals. Do you want to be another "GW"? Then, sure, the combination of rules/models/lore is a killer.

But if anything, the experience with GW has taught us that (big surprise) excessively dominant companies entrench and this results in lower value for the consumer (higher prices, stiffled innovation).

I'd prefer to have more companies focused on making models, now that production technologies are becoming more widely available. Some of the sculpts in Etsy's are stunning and can perfectly well sub in for many "units" across systems. While I love some of the "lore", I believe in using "assets" from a variety of games to personalize my armies. Finally, I do not believe that GW has great rules and I do think that they suffer from being excessively tied to models. Some of the work out there is pretty innovative, I don't see why we couldn't learn from it and use it in our games.

[EccentricCircle]

43 minutes ago, Overread said:

One of the larger barriers for the competition which is often overlooked is the distribution system. Right now its my understanding that the big distributor companies (the ones that ship and sell things to retailers) don't like to buy stuff unless its the "new hotness". Fresh new releases like a new model or army or game are easier to sell them on; but wargames often require the continual supply of older stock. Core games, starting factions and such all require a steady support of existing models not just the newest. This can mean that a local store can find it hard to stock the regular and the new products to keep interest in game going. Because the distributor doesn't really want to buy a lot of starter sets that are a year or more "old" just to tick over the supply for new gamers. 

 

GW beats this because they've their own online shop with regional distribution hubs and their own stores in many countries. They can step away from the entire 3rd party market if they wanted and still make good profit from selling direct. 

 

 

Interesting. that perhaps sheds some light on why they are constantly "rebooting" their core games too. Even if they don't rely on distributors, they may be considering the same factors, and conclude that a new edition is needed when it really isn't, because stores will be more likely to shift it.

[Kadeton]

4 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Sure I could stop and start something else. But what then? Am I going to play against myself because there’s no community to be found for this other game?

I wonder if this is some kind of cultural difference, or if my local area is just particularly blessed with gamers of all stripes? Because at my local gaming club, expressing an interest in pretty much any game, regardless how obscure, will see at least half a dozen or more people getting excited to try it out. Games currently doing the rounds on our tables include 2nd Ed 40K, 6th Ed WHFB, Epic 40K, and most recently Inquisitor of all things... and that's just the GW ones.

I know I'm one of the people who have suggested (to you, probably) that people should just look into other games if they're not enjoying this one. But I genuinely can't relate to the idea of not being able to find or start a community of enthusiastic players for any game you're excited about, as that's never been my experience. I'm sorry if it's been yours.

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, Kadeton said:

I wonder if this is some kind of cultural difference, or if my local area is just particularly blessed with gamers of all stripes?

In my experience there are important differences, mostly depending on the countries (of course) and even inside countries, between small and big cities.

I live in a city on the smaller side (around 50k people). We have a very nice club but even then, the number of people playing miniature games is limited, and they (we) mostly focus on three games, in descending order: 40k, ASOIAF, AoS, even though one can spot some very sporadic game of Blood Bowl or Warmachine. And that's it. As such, investing in a different system would mean betting my money and my time on a system that just might not take, considering the small pool of potential players. Also, starting a community myself requires a time investment which I simply cannot afford (job, family, the usual).

So, back to the price increases: in such a small community even losing a player (or not getting a potential one) due to the price becoming too steep has a big impact on my ability to enjoy the game, even if I can personaly still afford it. We just had a discussion on our club discord when the price of the new Eldar Codex came out (going to 42€, from the 37.5 of the Tau one, so not exactly 5% or even 10%) and the mood was pretty gloom.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Marcvs

[NauticalSoup]

1 hour ago, Kadeton said:

I wonder if this is some kind of cultural difference, or if my local area is just particularly blessed with gamers of all stripes? Because at my local gaming club, expressing an interest in pretty much any game, regardless how obscure, will see at least half a dozen or more people getting excited to try it out.

I don't think this is anomalous. People being willing to try a game isn't the same as the game being able to maintain a following in a region indefinitely. If I can get six people to try a game there's unlikely to be six people playing it a year from now. I've gotten into plenty of minis wargames like that and almost always come to regret it since I'm stuck with a heap of pretty but useless miniatures for a game nobody plays anymore.

In a lot of regions (including mine) people have described even large well-supported competitors with lots of players like Warmahordes and X-wing still managing to die out from a high where they were approaching Warhammer's popularity. Today I couldn't find games in those systems if I wanted to, but on the other hand I can strike up a match with my Space Marine minis I bought as a kid twenty years ago the same day. 

The only minis games that can really compete with Warhammer's ubiquity, playerbase and longevity are historicals and largely because historical figures are game-agnostic and even if the one you were playing falls out of favour, your 20mm French Grenadier fits nicely into any number of other systems at the same scale.

[RuneBrush]

1 hour ago, Greybeard86 said:

But if anything, the experience with GW has taught us that (big surprise) excessively dominant companies entrench and this results in lower value for the consumer (higher prices, stiffled innovation).

I think stifling innovation is a bit of a subjective topic.  Although GW has some very strong IP constraints, there are a huge number of authors, sculptors and painters who have interacted with GW's IP in some form, adding new layers and facets to it.

I'd also say that I think society has changed a huge amount over the past 20 years and generations are generally less innovative than they used to be because they've grown up not needing to innovate (if I want a background to photograph miniatures, I just need to look on Google Images - years ago I would have used a spray can and a piece of cardboard).  There is still innovation possible, but you actually want to have to do this rather than it being the defacto option.