The End of Free Warscrolls

[zilberfrid]

22 minutes ago, The Red King said:

I'm not advocating piracy but it feels like GW is.

Pushing people to small acts of piracy ("I just need this one warscroll for an ally") just makes it easier for them to decide "well I might as well just grab the whole book since its here, just in case I want to ally another unit..."

 

As a Cities and Khorne player, both of which have robust coalition rules spread across multiple books, I can say I'm not happy about it one bit.

I think it's wise for Cities players to download all Stormcast warscrolls. As long as they don't change, you procured it legally. Similar for Chaos players that want to add in stuff.

This probably depends on where you live, but I can't really see any sense in a law that makes something illegal to own after you procured it (where it isn't a license thing with a defined end term).

Piracy doesn't really punish the company, because you're still keeping the game alive and will probably be back at one point. Leaving for another system, however, does.

Similarely, don't get an STL that's basically an exact replica of a model in the GW store, but getting something that is a different take on the themes is wholly different.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

14 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I think it's wise for Cities players to download all Stormcast warscrolls. As long as they don't change, you procured it legally. Similar for Chaos players that want to add in stuff.

As far as I am aware, a lot of the warscrolls of the old Stormcast units have already changed. For example, the Knight-Azyros now gives +1 to hit instead of reroll 1s. It remains to be seen whether the warscrolls in the store will stay the same, be updated or be removed alltogether.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Neverchosen]

It is not hyperbole to say that the free warscrolls actually got me to return to the hobby after a break that lasted over a decade. I looked at the new models and I was intrigued and watched a few Batreps but actually pouring over the warscrolls along with the idea that I could just play the game on my own before picking up a battletome really got me excited. My first game back was literally just taking two units of 5 chaos warriors and their warscrolls and just rolling dice on my own to test it out. I also was able to share the hobby with a number of friends and we could send warscrolls to each other in preparation of games and discuss things like balance and our personal understandings of the rules. I have to admit the disappearance of free warscrolls will really negatively impact my experience with the game and erode even more trust with GW.  

[Gitzdee]

I like to buy the books for my main armies although i dont like the new prices at all. I like to read stuff about the armies i spend a lot of time on. But i did like the free warscrolls for using them as allies or just to browse them before buying into a new army. It would actually give me less motivation to buy models from an army i dont already own. I think i wont be the only one.

[Public Universal Duardin]

I have had a consistent stance of 'I want this hobby to accessible'. Obviously, this is something that affects that.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, so I am sure what I am going to say next has already been vigoriously argued over - it is one of those things that always come up time and time again. Yes, GW is a company who wants to make profits. Yes, being in this hobby is a choice. Yes, there's other alternatives. But the truth is that Games Workshop is the miniature company. We all have a story about how we got into this hobby one way or another, and most likely almost every single of those stories happened because GW is GW. A familiar face with GW stores in every major city around the western world, with 'Warhammer' being recognisable enough that chances are your average mom or pop has at least heard the word before. I am not criticising GW because I don't like them or their properties, because I cannot afford new toys myself or because I want to whinge on the  internet, but because I remember how I was sucked into the world of Warhammer; how it was a baby-Public Universal Duardin's escape and many of my good memories from those years are ones centered around Warhammer, be it the hobby proper or Warhammer-video games. Because I want the next generations to have that too.

Now, taking free rules away from their website isn't anything dramatic enough to warrant such an emotional response, but it is about the grander strategy of Games Workshop we have seen in past years. Be it higher prices or putting rules beyond a paywall, it gatekeeps accessibility of the hobby. I want to honestly know if a modern teenager can afford this hobby at all, who are essentially the demographic GW should be marketing towards (and honestly, something GW's design philosophy and lore is set to appeal to, I wouldn't call Warhammer exactly 'mature'). They are the next generation and I don't know if this hobby can stay healthy if it's only aimed at upper-middle class, able but aging, adults.

The ironic thing is that removing the free rules doesn't actually hurt anyone who could afford pointless subscriptions or battletomes - I am sure I am not only one here who researches rules before buying a miniature - but sets a barrier of entry for those who don't have as much money to spend and will eventually start a feedback loop that will prevent this hobby to be the same diverse hobby I have had so many good memories with. It is not about just the rules, but the short-sightedness of GW itself.

[relic456]

Honestly, even though pirating is ridiculously easy in this hobby, you never really even needed to. With aos reminders and free warscrolls you had access to pretty much everything you needed legally. By pay walling warscrolls, they cut off that possibility and it makes me worry about the future of other free resources, including Warscroll builder and aosreminders.

Edited September 13, 2021 by relic456

[yukishiro1]

GW doesn't need to make any of its profits via rules. It could easily afford to make all its rules entirely free, and it would still have world-beating profit margins - in fact, its margins might actually go up, since its margin on plastic is much higher than its margin on paper, so if people shifted money they currently spend on rules to miniatures, it might even work in GW's favor. GW certainly doesn't need to take away free warscrolls to try to drive its profit margin from 43% to 44%. There is making a healthy profit and then there is short-sighted greed that cannibalizes your long-term profits in favor of short-term ones, and this is tipping into the latter. It is so depressing to see GW going in precisely the opposite direction of where they should be re: accessible digital rules. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by yukishiro1

[CommissarRotke]

On 9/11/2021 at 6:09 AM, Gaz Taylor said:

My thoughts as I have a moment (and no hats). I think having free rules and warscrolls are great. It’s a great way to keep the game open to new players and to let existing players look at what does what. Keeping the army wide rules in the books made sense and was a nice hook for players who wanted to use more in their games.

I can however see why GW are doing this as it makes it easier to maintain the warscrolls if changes are made and gets people using their Warhammer+ service. I’m not going to get my pitchfork out though as I gave up trying to collect all the books and try and know everything (from the number of scrolls and rules it’s very difficult). 
 

I hope that this is just a temporary measure and they get released at some point, but like I said I’m not going to be upset if that doesn’t happen. 

my question is, if I get a digital code with my new Stormcast battletome. Do I NEED to be subbed to WH+ to even look at it?? Or can we access our own paid content on these new apps without a subscription?

[yukishiro1]

On the 40k one you don't need a subscription to the app to view codex stuff. But to be clear, you don't get a digital version of the codex, you just get a rules summary. There's no lore, you can't flip through it page by page, etc. It's really clunky unless you know exactly what you're looking for, and even then, it's a bit of a pain to navigate. It's definitely a step backwards, not forwards. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by yukishiro1

[EntMan]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

There is making a healthy profit and then there is short-sighted greed that cannibalizes your long-term profits in favor of short-term ones, and this is tipping into the latter. It is so depressing to see GW going in precisely the opposite direction of where they should be re: accessible digital rules.

Unfortunately the model seems to have been working to bring in the long term profits for 40k for years. I guess the GW gamble is if the same will work for AoS?

Or maybe the gamble was a few years ago when they thought if it'd be worth giving away the rules and scrolls for free instead of charging for then, so they can get us all hooked and then start charging.

The first hit is always free as the drug dealers used to say 😞 And they've given us lots of free hits to make sure we're hooked.

Edited September 13, 2021 by EntMan

[yukishiro1]

It's only been about five years since GW turned things around, and it's notable that many of the things they did to turn it around (e.g. cheaper start colleting boxes, simpler rules with greater digital access that made it easier to get into the game) they have since gone back on. GW has certainly had a good five years, but it's a bit early to say it's a long-term recipe for success, especially when they've abandoned a lot of what caused that success in the last year or two. A lot of GW's growth came from luring back old players and creating new ones with friendlier policies that they are now phasing out in favor of trying to squeeze more money out of their existing player base, which is exactly what got them into trouble last time. 

[The Red King]

4 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

+++ Mod Hat On +++
As already mentioned by Runebrush, we don’t want people saying it’s okay to Pirate stuff because GW have changed how they do things. Just plain up no. Not going to discuss copyrights in different countries as I would like to think you would agree that pirating things is wrong. 
 

Any further talk in this topic l, along the lines of “I’ve not got free warscrolls, so you have to pirate/steal it” will result in moderator actions.

I would suggest you follow Runebrush’s example and email aosfaq@gwplc.com. Remember to keep your comments polite and constructive. 

 

I just wanted to say that I wasn't being snarky. I literally was not advocating for piracy but expressing concern that these actions will lead to more piracy.

 

Despite how critical I seem at times of GW I don't want them to fail.

[yukishiro1]

Saying people will get their rules elsewhere doesn't necessarily imply piracy, which to be clear I'm not advocating either. As someone else noted, there is no copyright protection in the rules themselves, just in the expression of them. It doesn't violate any IP rules to create, post, or download detailed summaries of rules, as long as you don't just copy the exact wording and formatting; as such, there is no piracy involved in such an approach to getting the rules for free, as long as whoever originally did the compiling had a legal copy they were working from. Although GW claims you're not allowed to post stats for its games on its IP guidelines page, this simply isn't true as a matter of law in any country I'm aware of - certainly not the EU, the UK, or the US - which GW knows perfectly well itself. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by yukishiro1

[NinthMusketeer]

51 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

It's only been about five years since GW turned things around, and it's notable that many of the things they did to turn it around (e.g. cheaper start colleting boxes, simpler rules with greater digital access that made it easier to get into the game) they have since gone back on. GW has certainly had a good five years, but it's a bit early to say it's a long-term recipe for success, especially when they've abandoned a lot of what caused that success in the last year or two. A lot of GW's growth came from luring back old players and creating new ones with friendlier policies that they are now phasing out in favor of trying to squeeze more money out of their existing player base, which is exactly what got them into trouble last time. 

The first half of the 2010s has two notable factors for GW; the most extreme of Kirby era policies and shrinking sales.

2016 GW changed, putting a ton of effort (and no doubt money) into community outreach, more intensive rules development, the launch of the Start Collecting boxes, and even outright price decreases (significant ones) on a large number of new releases.

Games Workshop was the best performing stock on the UK market in 2016.

[yukishiro1]

Right, and now they've walked most of those changes back. New releases are more expensive now than they've ever been, not less. Start Collecting are being phased out in 40k in favor of Combat Patrol boxes that cost more and offer a lower % discount. Rules have become steadily more complex and more diversified, returning to the pre-8th status quo of needing a library worth of books to play a game. GW's community outreach has taken a PR battering lately on multiple fronts. Digital rules have been discontinued. Etc etc.

I'm not saying they won't continue to make money hand over fist in perpetuity no matter how much they squeeze the customer, it's possible they will. Just that GW's success over the last 5 years was built on policies diametrically opposed to the ones they've adopted since the launch of 9th edition and now ported over to AOS with 3rd, so quoting that success as evidence of why this approach will also be successful seems questionable. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Sarouan]

Rules are available on reviewers's videos, anyway. Just have to hit "pause" a lot.

Yeah, warscrolls on GW website are very convenient - though I largely used them for anything but using them in an actual game (have the battletome already for that, after all). More like analysis / check up before buying.

Though it's weird the old warscrolls are still online for the "old units". Anyone sent a mail to customer service and had an answer so far ?

[NinthMusketeer]

1 hour ago, yukishiro1 said:

Right, and now they've walked most of those changes back. New releases are more expensive now than they've ever been, not less. Start Collecting are being phased out in 40k in favor of Combat Patrol boxes that cost more and offer a lower % discount. Rules have become steadily more complex and more diversified, returning to the pre-8th status quo of needing a library worth of books to play a game. GW's community outreach has taken a PR battering lately on multiple fronts. Digital rules have been discontinued. Etc etc.

I'm not saying they won't continue to make money hand over fist in perpetuity no matter how much they squeeze the customer, it's possible they will. Just that GW's success over the last 5 years was built on policies diametrically opposed to the ones they've adopted since the launch of 9th edition and now ported over to AOS with 3rd, so quoting that success as evidence of why this approach will also be successful seems questionable. 

I'm saying the reversal of the community-positive trends is a reversal of what brought them huge success and is a bad business move no one benefits from.

Though it isn't all bad. For starters we are still night-and-day better than Kirby era. And at least on the AoS side the prices on new releases are more reasonable than not. A few outliers, but definitely not a trend towards higher prices in general (yet). Though I cannot speak for 40k.

[yukishiro1]

7 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

I'm saying the reversal of the community-positive trends is a reversal of what brought them huge success and is a bad business move no one benefits from.

So we agree. Well, that's no fun! Can't we argue about something? 🤣

 

 

 

[GrogTheGrognard]

One quick question I have is are we sure that warscrolls are no longer going to be free? The only reason I ask is because I can still see the downloads for the old stormcast models like Evocators but not for the new ones like the Stormstrike Chariot. I could see them waiting to drop the warscrolls when the book is finally for physical sale, but I also don't know if GW has put out any information regarding if they are discontinuing the free warscrolls.

 

Because while I do agree that getting rid of the free warscrolls is a bad move I want to make sure GW is actually making this move and it isn't just something to do with updating their website. I'm all for offering GW criticism when they do something bad, but I want to make sure they're doing something bad first and not just taking time.

Edited September 13, 2021 by GrogTheGrognard

[Honk]

29 minutes ago, GrogTheGrognard said:

I want to make sure GW is actually making this move and it isn't just something to do with updating their website.

The way I see it, they will not bother… no update for the existing warscrolls and the new models won’t have warscrolls.

I must say, the current situation is rather depressing. As stated above, they really put in some effort to make AoS easy access and beginner friendly. Of course with the usual power creep and the kinda mandatory yearly GHB subscription. 
But WH+ is a big jump, with freebies lost and added costs, heavy handed move against content creators, kinda reveal of the ugly truth, the „real“ vampire face…

AoS childsplay is over, no more pony riding and cottoncandy.

but the alternatives are out there, a lot taking a look at Star Wars and all the other stuff… other mothers have beautiful daughters, too (and sons; and divers). During their muck up before AoS, competitors started to gain traction, alternatives are not as ridiculous as back in the 90s and even then, Rackham with Confrontation really did cool things… hordes & warmachines 

i fear this general behavior will come around to bite them, even if the calculation X subscriptions equals Y money is easier to rate than „treat your fans with love and respect and they will support you 4evar“

[yukishiro1]

43 minutes ago, GrogTheGrognard said:

One quick question I have is are we sure that warscrolls are no longer going to be free? The only reason I ask is because I can still see the downloads for the old stormcast models like Evocators but not for the new ones like the Stormstrike Chariot. I could see them waiting to drop the warscrolls when the book is finally for physical sale, but I also don't know if GW has put out any information regarding if they are discontinuing the free warscrolls.

 

Because while I do agree that getting rid of the free warscrolls is a bad move I want to make sure GW is actually making this move and it isn't just something to do with updating their website. I'm all for offering GW criticism when they do something bad, but I want to make sure they're doing something bad first and not just taking time.

They've never done it like that in the past. Warscrolls have been put up at the same time the preorder is - it wouldn't make much sense to do it otherwise, part of the point is to get you to buy them. 

I suppose it's remotely possible that they're planning on posting scrolls "later," but it would be a break from their past practice and there's no reason to think that is the case. And we still don't have the warscrolls for Dominion uploaded either, and it's been months in that case. 

[Baron Klatz]

The unprecedented app change is the hope spot. It could be as simple as just digital team bungling as they put more people on the 40k & Warhammer+ projects and left AoS and it's webstore on the backburner. Again.

Like how they promised webstore rule downloads for the event models like the Errant-Questor but forgot them. That miscommunication might point to confusions and app problems behind the scenes.

Time will tell. Best we can do is send polite emails to GW explaining how useful the free warscrolls are for that lovely low entry barrier AoS is great at.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[demonlizardfromouterspace]

9 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

Rules have become steadily more complex and more diversified, returning to the pre-8th status quo of needing a library worth of books to play a game. 

 

That is one point that is driving me a little away from AOS. It used to be a casual game with a relative lughtweight ruleset that is becoming more and more complex. With too many gimicks you can chose from for every army, Hero abilities, monster abilities, Command point management, etc.

 

[demonlizardfromouterspace]

On 9/13/2021 at 1:43 AM, yukishiro1 said:

I'm afraid that means that Warscroll Builder is going to be next on the chopping block. 

That would be really annoing. I doubt GW is able to build a similar app that is as easy to use.

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, demonlizardfromouterspace said:

That is one point that is driving me a little away from AOS. It used to be a casual game with a relative lughtweight ruleset that is becoming more and more complex. With too many gimicks you can chose from for every army, Hero abilities, monster abilities, Command point management, etc.

That's what I'm liking about AoS3.0 with the newest Dominion battletomes, it feels like a lot is watered down so you rely more on the beefy Core Rules and Warscrolls  reducing that library feel AoS2.0 had where the core rules felt like they said "-to be continued in the GHB & Battletomes".

The Universal abilities and Core battalions are more essential with the tomes just adding flavor layers.

I think it'll be in a really great place with the next updated armies overhaul making their traits and warscrolls more streamlined as well.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Baron Klatz