AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[EnixLHQ]

19 minutes ago, Boggler said:

There is a difference between being negative and calling things out for being what they are.

Sure. Except no one's doing that. How could you? You know 1/3 of one warscroll, half of another, and 0% of the new battletome.

What exactly is the "how things are" here?

[Jabbuk]

26 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Sure. Except no one's doing that. How could you? You know 1/3 of one warscroll, half of another, and 0% of the new battletome.

What exactly is the "how things are" here?

I guess he means that he's calling what he sees and commenting on it. I mean from a hype building stand point, the marketing dpt would want to try to hype things up showing cool warscrolls. Or at least cool abilities that warrant some kinda buzz. The fact that from all the things this unit has, they decided to show their completely underwhelming shooting profile, is what's bothering me. Again, the comparison to Idoneth comes to mind. They showed interesting stuff on those sharks to build hype.

We're not saying the book is gonna suck. All were saying is that their shooting profile is just plain bad. There's no other way to put it. Whether on a vacuum or not. And it's disappointing. All it is just deception, here. 

[EnixLHQ]

8 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

We're not saying the book is gonna suck. All were saying is that their shooting profile is just plain bad. There's no other way to put it. Whether on a vacuum or not. And it's disappointing. All it is just deception, here. 

You had me until the last part. I think everyone is missing this point. There is another way to put it, and that's to remember that's there's more. We just don't know what, yet.

Do the same thing with those Cities crossbowmen again. Let's say that scroll got revealed and all it showed was the attack profile and let's say, I don't know, Piper--their +1 to run and charge ability.

You'd look at that and laugh, right? A ranged unit? With no rend? And an ability to get a +1 to running and charging? Oh, what is GW thinking?

And then the book comes out. Oh, battleline. Oh, marksman. Oh, stand-and-shoot. Oh, the free general's CA giving them +1/+1! And then the Celestial Hurricanum! Suddenly, it all looks different.

Dunno, guys, I would rather just go through my days with a hopeful smile than a dour frown, wouldn't you?

[Dogmantra]

Also, different factions should have different focuses, and Death in general traditionally does not have that much shooting. I think Nighthaunt getting a dedicated shooting unit in and of itself is quite novel and interesting.

[Jabbuk]

53 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

You had me until the last part. I think everyone is missing this point. There is another way to put it, and that's to remember that's there's more. We just don't know what, yet.

Do the same thing with those Cities crossbowmen again. Let's say that scroll got revealed and all it showed was the attack profile and let's say, I don't know, Piper--their +1 to run and charge ability.

You'd look at that and laugh, right? A ranged unit? With no rend? And an ability to get a +1 to running and charging? Oh, what is GW thinking?

And then the book comes out. Oh, battleline. Oh, marksman. Oh, stand-and-shoot. Oh, the free general's CA giving them +1/+1! And then the Celestial Hurricanum! Suddenly, it all looks different.

Dunno, guys, I would rather just go through my days with a hopeful smile than a dour frown, wouldn't you?

Good points, here. I hope you're right and we'll all be amazed.

[Darkrich]

1 hour ago, EnixLHQ said:

Dunno, guys, I would rather just go through my days with a hopeful smile than a dour frown, wouldn't you?

It's the hope that kills you.

After thinking about it, if they have a bodyguard rule, that's probably enough. They can hang out with your character, plink some wounds and serve a purpose. Not exciting, but a good thing to have.

[Boggler]

2 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

What exactly is the "how things are" here?

It's looking at the facts and calling them what they are.

The reveals are mediocre. Lackluster at best.

If these reveals require some kind of unknown synergy to unlock their awesomeness then great. I'm not getting my hopes up until I see more facts.

If I was in marketing then I'd want to showcase something badass OP cool. GW in this case doesn't seem to share this philosophy...

[dmorley21]

2 hours ago, Darkrich said:

It's the hope that kills you.

Ted Lasso disagrees. 
 

Anyway, I’m of the mind that we got to see the book first. I saw enough initial pushback on Soulblight, Stormcast, Ironjawz, Nurgle, and Fyreslayers to know that these books need to be taken as a whole. Looking at little revealed bits of info from select warscrolls just doesn’t tell you enough. We’ll know more once the new warscrolls in the box are revealed and  then obviously will have to wait for the book for the whole picture. 

[darkdaysdawn]

16 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I can see the Crossboos working kinda like a unit from 40k. Deepstrike them close to their target and shoot. Depending on other rules and support heroes and assuming the deepstriking mechanic is still there for the army wide ability, you could drop them down 12" out and fire through terrain or whatever to pick off something

I also hink that's the likely best use for crossbows. If you can, put big terrain in the enemy territory during setup. Then crossbows deploy from The Underworlds in full cover, where they can shoot but not be shot. 

[darkdaysdawn]

4 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

 

Dunno, guys, I would rather just go through my days with a hopeful smile than a dour frown, wouldn't you?

I'm hopeful that ethereal will be fixed. Anything else is gravy. IMO, ethereal has been the biggest issue in my games, and is the reason I switched to SBGL. 

New units are fun, sure. But what I really want is a book with decent allegiance abilities. OK, and a proper monster would be nice too. 🙂

I'm trying not to be negative, but man... It's been tough. Fingers crossed for the book.  

[Malakithe]

Id rather these guys be glass cannons. 1 wound but better attack profile and abilities. The attack profile is straight garbage so that sucks but maybe they have other abilities beyond shooting through stuff.

[lare2]

Regarding the rules so far, I might be in the minority but I just don't care if they're good or bad. We have one of the most visually striking armies in the setting and I enjoy playing them. I'll be running ghosts, win or lose, and I'll be super happy doing so. 

I'm not living with trepidation or hope for the new book... I just want to see what's what to know what to paint next. Have held out painting anymore NH until I can focus on my next list. 

[Rachmani]

With the reveal of Awlrach I think it’s a rather save bet that there will be 4 subfactions, each with their own distinct leader (warmaster) & their own playstyle.

I agree that the reveals on paper look rather unappealing, but between the lines I get strong (like really strong) SBGL vibes. 
I mean, Nighthaunt have an incredible range to further diversify through subfactions. So many units. Compare that to FS and what the rules guys had to work with there. 3 units? 4? And a bunch of heroes (and imo that book turned out rather well given the constraints).

NH don’t have these constraints. 
If I were to bet, I‘d bet it‘ll be one of the best if not the best written book of AoS 3. Just because the designers for once can go wild. The foundations are that strong (tons of heroes *and* units!). 
Maybe it won’t include Fulminators & Dragons, but in terms of playstyles and all the different ways of play, it’ll be awesome, I‘m almost certain.

 

P.S. Remember Nurgle. Everyone was underwhelmed right up to the actual release. Now it’s a very cool, thematically super fitting book with quite a lot of options. Seraphon level of bonkers strong, thank the horned rat, no! But good enough and super fun to play against.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

6 hours ago, Rachmani said:

P.S. Remember Nurgle. Everyone was underwhelmed right up to the actual release. Now it’s a very cool, thematically super fitting book with quite a lot of options. Seraphon level of bonkers strong, thank the horned rat, no! But good enough and super fun to play against.

It was the same with the Idoneth book. Bloodthirsty Shiver was revealed and the sea was falling.  It's natural to look at a reveal and say "I feel a certain way about this" - "calling it as it is", I think someone said - but we can't forget that what we're looking at is an incredibly small fraction of the big picture.

Maybe the crossbows are literally their profile, a 5+ ethereal save and that's it. Maybe they're more. I'm rather excited to find out, truth be told.

Now my theory: What if Kurdoss' faction gives them a bonus to range like Underguts or Big Yellers? I don't know if that'd help them but it seems like a possible (and common) subfaction ability.

[Rors]

I think the debates between the optimistists and cynics will continue for as long as GW keep producing previews. There's really no point in calling out one side for being negative and the other for over hyping in most cases. It won't stop the debate and it's unlikely anyones opinion will change much.

The rules we've seen so far tend towards being lackluster - no point pretending they're not. The remaining 99% of the rules that wv haven't seen could be amazing or similar.

Rather than putting any emotional spin on it, I'd note the following when speculating about the nighthaunt release.

1. Game ballance has been slowly getting better and GW is actively working on live ballance - a horribly weak release isn't as likely as it once was and if it is, we'll get updates much sooner than waiting for the next book iteration so it's less of a problem. Beasts of Chaos and the new regular patches are examples of this new trend.

2. GW have seemed to have two main writers, with different game design philosophy. We often see dual release with one strong and one weak release. Unfortunately, history would suggest the writer who makes the stronger book (not necessarily better but stronger) will get DoK again.

3. GW have shown a pattern of being conservative with Nighthaunt, I suspect because they break a few core game mechanic that could be problematic if they tip the scale too far and aforementioned tendancy for the same writer to get the book.

4. There's still a general power creep trend across book releases, although I think they're getting better. Thats good for a stronger release into the meta now, worse later. It's also possibly going to be mitigated somewhat by point 1.

 

 

[Neck-Romantic]

Do we have an anticapated eta for the book yet?

[Fellman]

I do not thinch this is everything that will com for nighthount
they have to fix that you att the moment can bye a Guardian of souls or Knight of Shrouds on steed sins the soul war box disappeared

[Neck-Romantic]

You know, I always have high hopes for new books, but this time I have pretty high *expectations* for the next book.

Its been plain for the last few years that GW is aware of NH's lack of specific tools in their current book, and have tried to shoehorn them in with supplements (our heroes or notoriously low wounds, bodyguard rules, bravery shenanigans lackluster, no subfactions) so I expect most of these issues WILL be addressed in a new tome.

 

The unimpressive stats so far could be due to faction-wide Frightful Touch, or other triggers. It really wouldnt take much to make even the curre t warscrolls much more competetive with subfactions that simply grant frightful touch, or improve ethereal, or improve deathless spirits, etc

 

Armies like Idoneth and Necrons' pioneering of turn-based effects could see NH getting something similar. Even something simple like a cumulative -1 to enemy bravery each turn to represent the NH's creeping dread could be quite impactful

Edited March 27, 2022 by Neck-Romantic

[Jabbuk]

Some really good points from the last two posts, thank you guys. It's true that it wouldn't make sense at all to have a profile like that in 3.0. There's probably something much larger army-wide (or sub faction wide) that justifies those stats. Really can't wait for this book.

[Boggler]

7 hours ago, Fellman said:

I'm wondering if Awlrach the Drowner will have a more powerful unnamed twin that you can give Command Traits and Artefacts to.

Also, Idoneth's Forgotten Nightmares seems like it should have been saved and given to Nighthaunt as an army Battle Trait.

I'm not down on the whole Bodyguarding thing. I just wanted Nighthaunt to move away from their unique, keep everything everywhere in range of the multitudes of auras and effects that you have everywhere. It would've be cool if Nighthaunt just got something and didn't have to jump through any hoops to get it.

Armies that just get to do stuff tend to do better.

[Kadeton]

1 hour ago, Boggler said:

Armies that just get to do stuff tend to do better.

Aren't basically all the armies that are "doing better" at the moment based around command abilities that let them attack twice in a turn, combined with tons of mortal wounds? Barely anyone gets by on just solid stats these days.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

41 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Aren't basically all the armies that are "doing better" at the moment based around command abilities that let them attack twice in a turn, combined with tons of mortal wounds? Barely anyone gets by on just solid stats these days.

Soulblight is doing pretty well, and they are just all-around solid value without any particularly abusive stuff. They are probably not tier 1 though, but top of tier 2. There is no reason Nighthaunt couldn't be a second Soulblight when they finally get subfactions. They are more primed to be a horde version of Stormcast without the most abusive stuff, though.

[EnixLHQ]

So my buddy has been trying to build his channel for a bit now, and he's got some different kinds of Warhammer and non-WH content to watch. Recently, he finished painting up my Nagash. I'll be using this very same model in any of my lists that feature him.

If you wouldn't mind, please head over and have a watch. It'd mean the world to him.

[dmorley21]

So the Spirit Torment and Chainghasts now move 8”. Spirit Torment lost re-roll 1s with no replacement, but does better healing and more consistent damage in melee. Chainghasts now have a buff aura of +1 to hit as long as there’s a Spirit Torment on the field somewhere. The Scriptor gets ghosts to bodyguard it. 

[The_Dudemeister]

Uploaded wrong image size. Oops.

 

Anyway, Ethereal remaining the same and some units like Chainghasts getting down to 5+ without getting more wounds is an interesting choice

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by The_Dudemeister