Tossed into the Mawpot! Soup Armies Thoughts and Feelings?

[DoctorPerils]

8 minutes ago, Nuriel said:

I think we should seperate two kind of dishes:

a) all-duradin soup and

b) soup where Kharadron Overlords / Fyreslayers are combined with other (non-dwarven) armies.   

I don't like first solution. It seriously dilutes what make those dwarves unique from each other and the all other fantasy settings. What is the gain here? Combined dwars army? Play Lethisian Defenders from Forbidden Power for that.

The second one it's better in my opinion. GW can combine Fyreslayers with Phoenix Temple and Legion of Azgorh emphasising Aqshy and religious cultists themes. 

Fireslayers with phoenix temples sounds cool to me as keywords currently work I think I'd still prefer to soup Furnace Kings/Legions of Azgorh into S2D, but the idea isn't without merit

[Neverchosen]

44 minutes ago, DoctorPerils said:

EDIT: @Neverchosen
you say that there is no evidence of soup's getting fewer releases than stand alone factions, then say in the same breath that most of their battletomes get the same amount of support as most stand alone factions at the very most - that means that where both constituent factions may get a hero and a piece of terrain, they end up getting a single hero and a piece of terrain for the whole battletome: on average, that's fewer releases. You then go on to give the notable exception of Gloomspite Gitz, but say yourself that a whole faction of them (spiderfangs) got nothing out of the souping.

So the way I read it, your post essentially contradicts your point - am I missing something?

I don't see the contradiction personally, I was just stating the degrees of support that they received and how I do not think that is reason to panic.  I also state that Cities of Sigmar is slowly getting more releases and that both Soulblight and Slaves to Darkness got massive releases.. but I am exceptionally dimwitted and likely contradict myself frequently. ☹️

You and I are essentially arguing the same thing here, namely that there is a mix of support for souped armies and that Spiderfang got less support than the rest of the faction*. I am not trying to argue anything, just simply point out that people act like soup factions get less than other armies and I am showcasing that they essentially get the same level of support. Unless we are comparing it to an entirely new army like Lumineth but even then when the second wave hit there was no new support for Alarith. 

*although as our friend @dirkdragonslayerpoints out below Spiderfang helped inform the aesthetics and direction of a number of the newer Gloomspite releases. With an endless spell that feels specifically designed for the subfaction.  

Edited May 27, 2021 by Neverchosen

[dirkdragonslayer]

15 minutes ago, Neverchosen said:

However, Gloomspite got a massive overhaul and new releases. I think the only thing untouched from the Gloomspite release were the Spiderfangs which are a really cool albeit slightly more niche but fully playable subfaction. 

While Spiderfang got nothing directly due to keyword shenanigans inherent to the army, they had a lot of influence on the design of other parts of the Gloomspite. The Sneaky Snufflers have spider backpacks, the Poisoner Grot of the Gobbapalooza is one of those Spiderfang similar to the Silver Tower ones, half of the Endless Spells are spider themed (with Scuttletide being specifically designed for their use). That also doesn't count the variety of spiders and venomous insects spread around the new models like the Troggboss and Loonboss on Squig. While they got no new models, the designers did well incorporating their aesthetic into the army.

Though if GW did a surprise release of new Spider Riders I would be on it faster than a Madcap Shaman consumes his stash of Redcaps.

[Neverchosen]

1 minute ago, dirkdragonslayer said:

While Spiderfang got nothing directly due to keyword shenanigans inherent to the army, they had a lot of influence on the design of other parts of the Gloomspite. The Sneaky Snufflers have spider backpacks, the Poisoner Grot of the Gobbapalooza is one of those Spiderfang similar to the Silver Tower ones, half of the Endless Spells are spider themed (with Scuttletide being specifically designed for their use). That also doesn't count the variety of spiders and venomous insects spread around the new models like the Troggboss and Loonboss on Squig. While they got no new models, the designers did well incorporating their aesthetic into the army.

Though if GW did a surprise release of new Spider Riders I would be on it faster than a Madcap Shaman consumes his stash of Redcaps.

Thank you, I had forgotten a number of those release (hence, the dimwittedness in my last post). I really do think that people are getting pretty upset over the idea of soup armies and in an editions time if these armies get no further support I will join the chorus. But for now I see soup armies getting roughly equal support as their non-souped rivals. 

[Fairbanks]

Now that I think about it:

Armies new/mostly new to AoS: Fyreslayers, IDK, KO, LRL, Nighthaunt, OBR

Armies split from WFB Faction and major things added: DoK, Sylvaneth, BoK, DoT, HoS, MoN, FEC, Gitz, Orruks, SoB

The same WFB Faction throughout: Seraphon

Were split, but returned to the same WFB Faction: Beasts, Skaven, Ogors

Had things split from, returned to the same WFB Faction, then got significantly more stuff: StD, Soulblight

Soup Armies: Cities

WFB Armies not appearing in this film: Brets, TKs, and High Elves.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Fairbanks

[Baron Klatz]

I don't see it as anti-soup opinions (though I agree with loving sub-factions waaay more in new directions they can take forces and branch them out from there like Darnok said) but just this particular one is unwelcomed.

Every other soup made sense and to the huge credit of the AoS studio they've made it so every sub-faction is represented and expanded on like BCR are still focused on the Everwinter while cleverly being written that they were able to re-ally with the foot-sloggers because some tribes were able to adapt to the curse and use it to their advantage rather than keep running from the eternal ice storm across the realms. This plus the interesting variations on their Everwinter curse along with being a badass monster cavalry nomadic army has kept Beastclaw's identity intact and usually more standout than the Gutbusters.

Same for Gravelords, it's an 3.0 expansion of Grand Alliance Death that marks it very differently from the world-that-was vampire books at's grave-empires dynasty focused instead of bloodlines so you can have pure vampire-units-only forces or Deathrattle-only as the undead are respected as being a autonomous race that don't crumble without a vampire or necromancer around, mixed undead is just an option but any Death race can lead a dynasty. The door is even left wide open for more Deadwalker zombie heroes in the future like the ones in "Soul Wars" or the gravedigger from Cursed City for more representation of the zombie lords & middle-class in the Realm of Death.

Kharadron + Fyreslayers though doesn't gel too well as Kharadron already can pull that and Fyreslayers can just jump to Cities of Sigmar for variety. If that's literally all the book is(even if some old Dispossessed get pushed in on the side) it'll be a major disappointment that'll suffer bloat.

So hopefully even if Fyreslayers don't see a second wave yet a Grungni tome will actually bring in a bunch of new stuff that'll actually make Kharadron and Fyreslayer players look at it for new toys rather than try to fill a void that's already got a aether-gold plug in it. Just seeing a Grungni model with the god leading a elite taskforce of Gholemkin and duardin demi-gods to allow a united force would make worlds of difference in setting the tone it's a brand new thing fitting AoS and not leftovers reheated in the fyreoven.

I can't imagine Grungni's been working away in secret for so long without anything to show for it.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[PraetorDragoon]

I think its rather sad as GW did manage to make the various mini-factions feel very distinct and unique on their part. Factions like the Flesh-Eaters or the Nighthaunt managed to carve out their own distinct identity. Having factions like those being merged together later is a bit sad.

Kharadrons & Fyreslayers for example, only have being Dwarves and holding Grudges in common, mixing them together will result into a uncohesive mess. Its not because lore. Its not because gameplay, its purely a buisiness driven decision.

[Baron Klatz]

At least it's not a rule of thumb they're going by. They could've easily tossed Flesh-Eaters into Gravelords since Nagash isn't running things as strictly and even Sons of Behemat could've been put in Gloomspite instead as just 3 models added to their Aleguzzlers.

It has been pointed out that they're making factions more distinct like that and doubling down on seperate keywords making soups harder so it's a good sign Grungni is the exception rather than the norm.(if it even happens like that, we could be jumping the gun here and it's a different situation than a soup)

[MaatithoftheBrand]

I think as others have said, my thoughts on soup depend on the lore behind it and the cohesion - on the individual "flavour" of the soup, rather than the concept as a whole, as it were.

Cities is the "big, controversial" one that has actually been released - it has more Stormcast on the cover than Cities units, and its release marked the end of a lot of classic kits (and, in terms of age, not-so-classic-and-yet-seemingly-perfect-for-AoS kits, like the Skycutter (no you're still bitter)), but on the other hand, it also perfectly fit the lore we had for how the Free Peoples of the Mortal Realms frequently worked, particularly those descended from the people and refugees of Azyr. The idea of Freeguild Human regiments marching in lockstep and matching colours with Clannish Longbeard shieldwalls and roving bands of Aelvish scouts is one that matches the fluff for how these races and cultures have survived - side by side, often uncomfortably and with tensions, but with common homes and purpose.
I think, given the change in design philosophy from the 'small, bespoke factions that we can grow' to 'functional, cohesive armies', Cities of Sigmar marks a sensible choice to keep a number of those factions and themes and lore ideas in the game and functional. Has it been implemented perfectly? Well, personally I would like more Cities units to be able to support each other better - if my Warden King has been commanding his City's garrison for decades/centuries, it seems strange to me that the Aelven Sisters of the Watch and the Human Greatswords that call it home are not as much an extension of his tactics and inspiration as the Ironbreaker bodyguard he has. And I do think that a lot of people were very much soured by the fact that this particular soup tome came off the back of losing so many models and options - especially ones as iconic as cannons and Warrior Priests. But, I do think that Cities has potential - and GW has, over the last few years, moved more towards centering Cities characters (particularly Free Guild) in more narratives and trailers and the like, which gives me some hope that (even if they are still a couple of years away because GW only started work on them after somewhat panickily realising just how many people wanted a "standard human and friends" faction) we will eventually see more expansions for the Cities.

Mawtribes also works fairly well in my opinion, but almost for the opposite reason - whilst we did get some fluff about the curse/blessing of the Everwinter in the Beastclaw Raiders book, for the most part this did not have to interrupt the lore and narrative of the combined Ogor book. Ogors have always been a disparate and mercenary race, so having a wide array of tribes that mechanically work fairly similarly, but some are led by world-traveled and extravagant mercenaries, some worship primal fire, others are cursed to be hunted by the Everwinter, etc. This was helped, as others have said, by the fact that this was more a reset than a "souping", recombining visually very similarly designed models and mechanics into a cohesive whole.

Warclans is almost the opposite, to my mind, although I can see the attempts to use lore to combine the elements. The Ironjawz being standard Orruks who have proven their worth, grown big and strong, and earned/forged their own armour with the goal of conquest and destruction and proving their worth over all others, they moved away from the standard Orruk in one direction - towards discipline and might and (the orruk version of) Soldiering. The Bonesplittas instead being standard (or even Ironjaw) Orruks who have effectively being called by Gorkamorka/the Waaagh!/blunt force trauma to leave behind their old life and become monster hunters - effectively feral paladins whose battles are worship and hunt and ritual more than they are warfare; effectively moving them away from standard Orruks in the opposite direction to the Ironjawz. Now, I know that Orcs/Orruks have always been fairly good at coming together when the Waaagh! is impressive enough, and that the Great Waaagh! rules are designed to reflect that idea; a war and cause big enough to unite the two groups. However, I think that for this imagery/idea to work, there needed to be one or two more small subfactions to make it feel like a real coming together of a true Waaagh!; a handful of standard Orruks who have managed to keep up with these two factions of elites, a few mobs of demi-gargants or Morruks or some other new AoS type Orruk culture or adjacent race - without that, Warclans feels like a bandaid to keep Ironjawz and Bonesplittas in the game more than a meaningful soup list (not helped by not gaining any new models or scenery or endless spells or the like during their souping).

I think the worry/feeling I have about a book that combined the Kharadron and the Fyreslayers is that as it stands it feels an awful lot like the problems with Warclans, but even moreso. As others have pointed out, there are very few - if any - cultural ties that still exist between the two factions, and that a single, slimmed down book would lose a lot of the flavour and variety that these two currently possess in a way that does not seem necessary. That is not to say that there are not some commonalities and that there aren't reasons these two might work together - there is a whole Skyport that can already include Fyreslayer units (because that is an unusual and conservative Skyport that still venerates the Ancestors and so has more in common with their Ashqyian cousins) and both factions are mercenary enough that they would work with the other to secure ur-gold/trade contracts. You might even argue that, particularly in the face of true threats, both might be likely to celebrate their shared heritage by offering a discount! But as they stand now, simply souping the two doesn't seem like what the fans of either wants, and like it would reduce the variety each faction was able to show within itself.
Now, the idea that the return of an Ancestor-God like the Smith is significant to the duardin is not controversial; it is a big deal. In fact, I think an interesting parallel might be the Ynari for the Eldar in 40k; an Ancestor-God returning to the frontlines with a new plan and purpose is a big deal, and whilst many Kharadron and Fyreslayers might continue to do their own thing, I can see a large number of both being encouraged enough to travel to make common cause with the Smith to go and join his host, and even a handful of Kharadron even being so inspired as to actively convert to the worship of the Ancestors again, and a handful of Fyreslayers to see him as the best path back to the reforging of their own god/a messiah figure worthy of their worship and veneration. However, given that these conversions would be a minority amongst the allies flocking to the Smith, and so many of the lore hints to his plan and his return talking about something new (and, you know, him being a forge god), I think the more interesting route would be a new faction - even one that starts or even stays very small (a new longbeard and/or quarrellers equivelenat, a smith hero, a rune golem unit, something like that would be an okay core) and can either take 1 in 4 of either KO and FS, or 1 in 4 of each (so half the army can be these existing factions) seems like a more satisfying option for everyone.

[Cronotekk]

I don't mind soup tomes since it's mostly putting old armies back together, but I wish GW tried to play into the microfaction thing they had going on.

An army building system that was all about having multiple "detachments" of different micro factions, or going all in on one, would be very fun. Maybe give two allegiance abilities, one for a detachment and you get both for your "primary" detachment. Tie artefacts and spells to realm of origin and grand alliance. Would've been fun, but this system is good too.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

Please take these in the humorous spirit in which they are offered...

 

 

 

[Neverchosen]

1 hour ago, Fairbanks said:

WFB Armies not appearing in this film: Brets, TKs, and High Elves.

It is interesting seeing the way you have things laid out as it brings into sharper relief the idea that most of the soup armies are actually reconstitution of older factions.

Maybe that is why the Duardin example sticks out beyond lore reasons as it is taking two armies that are fairly unique and combining them into something much more generic. I do think that the introduction of new Dispossessed could pose a potential aesthetic bridge between the two. This may also explain why Idoneth also feel like strange bedfellows with the other purposed Aelven soups as they could easily fit in with the other factions lorewise by building an alliance, or making amends after abandoning them... but they still feel entirely unique entity from the others. Namely if Idoneth were to become a part of Lumineth, DoK, Sylvaneth or Malerion's forces they will very much be the cool Fishy subfaction with it's own set of rules.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

Since they have the IP couldn't resist one more...

This one gets to the heart of my perplexity re:the vehemence with which it is insisted KO and Fyreslayers cannot be united.  Two cultures, springing from the same roots but separated by their response by a cataclysmic tragedy forced to reunite for a common cause that requires the strengths of both has to be one of the most common tropes in fantasy...

[Clan's Cynic]

9 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Since they have the IP couldn't resist one more...

 

This one gets to the heart of my perplexity re:the vehemence with which it is insisted KO and Fyreslayers cannot be united.  Two cultures, springing from the same roots but separated by their response by a cataclysmic tragedy forced to reunite for a common cause that requires the strengths of both has to be one of the most common tropes in fantasy...

Except Gondor and the Rohirrim are just that, allies. Allies literally being a mechanical rule in AoS? You might as well say we should soup all of the Grand Alliances and have only four Battletomes in the whole game if allying is all it takes to justify Soup 'Tomes.

Also in GW's own LotR game they're separate armies.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

2 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Except Gondor and the Rohirrim are just that, allies. Allies  literally being a mechanical rule in the book, about taking separate Battletomes? You might as well say we should soup all of the Grand Alliances and have only four Battletomes in the whole game in that case.

Also in GW's own LotR game they're separate armies who can, well, ally.

I’m totally unfamiliar with LotR rules so not familiar with how allies work there.  Do know that because of key wording ally model in AoS tricky at best.  I can say from tons of direct experience with Warclans and Mawtribes that they do a good job addressing that.  Gitz, not as well to be fair.

But I’m trying to step back to a broader point with this insistence that somehow Fyreslayers and KO from a lore perspective are absolutely irreconcilable.  If this is true it would truly be the exception within the context of fantasy or sci fi where literature and films are full of wider chasms bridge to powerful narrative effect.

[Darnok]

2 hours ago, Fairbanks said:

WFB Armies not appearing in this film: Brets, TKs, and High Elves.

High Elves have as many kits still in production than Wood Elves (the not-tree variety that is) - and what is left of both is parts of CoS.

Other than that: excellent summary, thank you!

[zilberfrid]

9 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Since they have the IP couldn't resist one more...

This one gets to the heart of my perplexity re:the vehemence with which it is insisted KO and Fyreslayers cannot be united.  Two cultures, springing from the same roots but separated by their response by a cataclysmic tragedy forced to reunite for a common cause that requires the strengths of both has to be one of the most common tropes in fantasy...

Allies are not the same faction.

We already have rules for allies.

This'd be the first time two armies made for AoS are smashed together, all because in a rare bit of role reversal, GW failed at making models and succeeded making good lore and 2d art.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

2 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Allies are not the same faction.

We already have rules for allies.

This'd be the first time two armies made for AoS are smashed together, all because in a rare bit of role reversal, GW failed at making models and succeeded making good lore and 2d art.

Already hit upon issue with ally rules in response to @Clan's Cynic.

Won’t dispute per se the behinds the scenes rational for why it is happening.

But neither of those points address why, when we have literally hundreds of movies and thousands of fantasy and science fiction books that are built around the concept of reuniting cultures which diverged at one point but have to reunite to face a larger issue, is there such strong belief that Fyreslayers and KO are the exception to this rule?

[Greybeard86]

13 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Already hit upon issue with ally rules in response to @Clan's Cynic.

Won’t dispute per se the behinds the scenes rational for why it is happening.

But neither of those points address why, when we have literally hundreds of movies and thousands of fantasy and science fiction books that are built around the concept of reuniting cultures which diverged at one point but have to reunite to face a larger issue, is there such strong belief that Fyreslayers and KO are the exception to this rule?

I think the issue is more that they think KO will get gutted as a result, with less time invested in their lore and mini creation.

[zilberfrid]

21 minutes ago, Beer & Pretzels Gamer said:

Already hit upon issue with ally rules in response to @Clan's Cynic.

Won’t dispute per se the behinds the scenes rational for why it is happening.

But neither of those points address why, when we have literally hundreds of movies and thousands of fantasy and science fiction books that are built around the concept of reuniting cultures which diverged at one point but have to reunite to face a larger issue, is there such strong belief that Fyreslayers and KO are the exception to this rule?

We're not going to agree.

They were designed to be as different as they could be within the same species.

Kharadron:

• Interesting interpretation of diving suits
• Mechanical
• Have multiple ships for movement (basically led zeppelins)
• Primarily ranged
• Non-religious
• Distinct bodies
• Well designed

Fyreslayers

• Wrong interpretation of naked firefighters
• Primal
• Have one beast
• Primarily melee
• Fanatic
• Copy paste of everything but the weapons
• Poorly designed

The only things they have in common are:

• Ancestor masks and Fyreslayer faces look about as lifelike
• High price per model

It also removes the one faction in all the mortal realms that really is "your dudes", and not shackled to some god or the other.

I also expect duct taping them together to be done with all the grace of the End Times.

Edited May 27, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

17 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

I think the issue is more that they think KO will get gutted as a result, with less time invested in their lore and mini creation.

That one I’m very empathetic about (shoot, I’m empathetic about all of it but most of the rationals don’t hold up for me) but it just comes across as a certainty whereas the evidence from actual soup tomes suggests it is far from inevitable.

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

12 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

We're not going to agree.

And that’s fine.  Again, I’m empathetic to all the concerns just confused about the certainty that so many of the anti-soup opinions are expressed with when I compare it to my own experience within AoS and outside if AoS as an avid consumer of fantasy and sci fi.

12 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

I also expect duct taping them together to be done with all the grace of the End Times.

And I do recognize there is a lot of scar tissue and skepticism re: the dexterity & finesse of GW’s handling of changes.  Despite what I think are very successful examples in Mawtribes and Warclans that is no guarantee.  As they say in my industry past performance is no guarantee of future results.  But that’s true both ways.  ****** up end times doesn’t mean they’ll ****** up every other change.  Successfully souping doesn’t mean every soup is successful.

 

[Televiper11]

28 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

I think the issue is more that they think KO will get gutted as a result, with less time invested in their lore and mini creation.

You have no way of knowing that though. KO are popular: top tier on table, big sales, and have a series of novels. Not sure what the complaint is. They won’t get gutted (if by gutted, you mean squatted) and their lore isn’t going anywhere.

[Televiper11]

I just want to reiterate my support for a Duardin soup tome, one that includes Dispossessed & Ironweld as well. I am a very happy Mawtribes & Warclans player and see the benefits as far outweighing the negatives. You’ll still be able to field your singular allegiance, if you want to. But for those of us who want to reunite the Khazalid Empire and show these bloody usurpers what’s what, giving us that option is good for the game and good for all Dawi players as it will increase demand for kits and increase table-time and visibility/viability  of the armies. Remember that only KO are currently popular. Fyreslayers are unpopular and Dispo/IW are stuck in neutral. A rising tide, if you will.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Televiper11

[trolemon]

What about a small souping where you borrow small amounts from other armies but it's not a united Duardin allegiance like Big Waaagh is for Orruks.

All the cities Duardin are missing from the old WHFB feel imo are slayers, grudges, miners, and more shooting.

Take the Vulkite Beserkers from Fyreslayers (maybe with an upgrade sprue for generic mohawks instead of the fire drake looking ones), call em Slayers and bring the Unforged back as a Mega-Gargant Slayer. That's slayers sorted.

Just bring back the miners kit for miners. They were already plastic.

Take the Arkanaut Company from KO (again maybe an upgrade sprue for bare heads) and that's a little bit more shooting.

Give them a book of grudges / anvil of doom terrain piece, and something nutty like the old flame cannon and you're looking pretty set without running Magmadroths and Boats together. Just Mohawks and Pistols.