AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[Lich King]

Just use a 3rd party print - there are tons of Necromancer or “dark wizards” from other companies. I personally like the stock GW one .

[Liquidsteel]

White Dwarf rules are out, summary below.

[stus67]

having a unit of grave guard interrupting combat sounds like a good enough case to try and fit a vampire lord on foot into an army

[Sception]

3 minutes ago, stus67 said:

having a unit of grave guard interrupting combat sounds like a good enough case to try and fit a vampire lord on foot into an army

I mean, without it you would just attack with the grave guard first.  Basically it just adds the vamp lord's attacks to the grave guard activation if you successfully charge with both.  Nice, but probably not a huge deal outside of using it with Radukar the Beast.  I could be wrong though.  It's certainly better than not having it, so I'm not complaining.

[Liquidsteel]

I think that's the general feeling, it's all nice, some good stuff, could have been better in general. Some of it is trash though.

[Jaskier]

Question time; I have an old Legions of Nagash army that was mostly Nighthaunt with the odd Necromancer/Vampire model here and there, one of those being a Coven Throne. My question is how does the Coven Throne fare for y'all? I have yet to see one in any tournament lists, and from my own perspective it seems to be mostly because it's just a tad too expensive as a support piece and doesn't do enough damage to satisfy its hybrid role pricing? The other thing is its (frankly incredible) command ability seems to have numerous analogues elsewhere (like Vrykos' free +1 to-wound.) I'd like to build a SBGL army in the new year around one, but it feels like I'd just be better served running a Vampire on Zombie Dragon for a real combat threat (especially in Legion of Blood.)

Deadly Coordination is a new and pretty hefty bonus for it given it isn't a monster, so maybe that might improve its popularity? 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Jaskier

[Ghoooouls]

1 hour ago, Jaskier said:

Question time; I have an old Legions of Nagash army that was mostly Nighthaunt with the odd Necromancer/Vampire model here and there, one of those being a Coven Throne. My question is how does the Coven Throne fare for y'all? I have yet to see one in any tournament lists, and from my own perspective it seems to be mostly because it's just a tad too expensive as a support piece and doesn't do enough damage to satisfy its hybrid role pricing? The other thing is its (frankly incredible) command ability seems to have numerous analogues elsewhere (like Vrykos' free +1 to-wound.) I'd like to build a SBGL army in the new year around one, but it feels like I'd just be better served running a Vampire on Zombie Dragon for a real combat threat (especially in Legion of Blood.)

Deadly Coordination is a new and pretty hefty bonus for it given it isn't a monster, so maybe that might improve its popularity? 

Think it depends on your playstyle and who you're playing with. If you're playing friendly games vs your friends and family, I wouldn't worry much about what tournament lists consist of.

I've only used the throne once or twice and it's been pretty good. But it I was going into a tournament setting I probably wouldn't take one (although there was one tournament list that did very well using it I think).

If you're just playing games against family and friends, try it out. The game comes down to dice rolls anyway. Use what you want and like and have fun.

[Jaskier]

Thanks for the advice! That pretty much aligns with what I felt at a glance. The other issue I noted is how it competes with Mannfred, sporting better stats, an AoE version of its command (losing out on +1 save is a fine trade for that) and his crazy teleport shenanigans. I'm a fairly competitive-minded player that doesn't mind running sub-optimal stuff if it's cooler or more fun, but in this case Mannfred just looks like a heap of fun (for being a right pest) compared to the Throne. I'll build a list around it one day (probably with Blood Knights) but I'll try other stuff first. 

[TechnoVampire]

On 12/13/2021 at 11:56 AM, Liquidsteel said:

White Dwarf rules are out, summary below.

I can’t see any summary, or find the new rules. Does anyone have a link? 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

So, the FAQ is out!

• New Nagash warscroll, 955 points. It's fine. Gets a new command ability that allows you to give units a 5+ ward instead of the usual 6+ and makes it so that your healing rolls return more model or return models more reliably.
• Everything that can be built from the Mortis Engine kit down 20 points.
• Black Knights still boring, but now only 100 points. I think that makes them usable.

Once again, this tome proves to be like fine wine, only getting better with age.

Other changes that don't directly affect us:

• Unleash Hell nerfed: Now only 6" range and only targets the unit that charged.
• Heroic Recovery nerfed: Now only out of combat.
• Amulet of Destiny nerfed: Now just a 6+ ward.

These changes make the environment more suitable for Gravelords: The army makes no use of Unleash Hell and has good healing and a 6+ ward built in, making us relatively more tanky than everyone else now.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Sception]

Loss of AoD is a bit of a nerf, as several dynasties are lacking in worthwhile artefacts, and our faction does still rely heavily on our heroes, if not as much as before, so reduced durability hurts.

That 'reduced durability is a problem' comment applies to nagash, too, as losing his save rerolls is a blow. Less of a blow than in OBR, where he also lost petrifex bonus, self healing, and all obr command abilities (can neither issue nor receive them) but still cant use generic command abilities - someone at gw really doesn't want people to run nagash in obr.  but even in soulblight the new ca, while not bad, is still a noticeable downgrade.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Sception

[Ghoooouls]

31 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

So, the FAQ is out!

• New Nagash warscroll, 955 points. It's fine. Gets a new command ability that allows you to give units a 5+ ward instead of the usual 6+ and makes it so that your healing rolls return more model or return models more reliably.
• Everything that can be built from the Mortis Engine kit down 20 points.
• Black Knights still boring, but now only 100 points. I think that makes them usable.

Once again, this tome proves to be like fine wine, only getting better with age.

Other changes that don't directly affect us:

• Unleash Hell nerfed: Now only 6" range and only targets the unit that charged.
• Heroic Recovery nerfed: Now only out of combat.
• Amulet of Destiny nerfed: Now just a 6+ ward.

These changes make the environment more suitable for Gravelords: The army makes no use of Unleash Hell and has good healing and a 6+ ward built in, making us relatively more tanky than everyone else now.

How does one find the new points costs?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 minutes ago, Ghoooouls said:

How does one find the new points costs?

Here:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/XTPR7PzBSVcNAAOd.pdf

37 minutes ago, Enoby said:

The points:

 

[Jaskier]

I think the Black Knight drop definitely makes them usable in Legion of Blood for fast Battleline chaff - units like those aren't must-haves but are always really handy to have - but they're probably still not worth taking elsewhere. 

The Coven Throne drop is certainly timely, especially with the synergy it has with Summonable since the WD update. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Jaskier said:

I think the Black Knight drop definitely makes them usable in Legion of Blood for fast Battleline chaff - units like those aren't must-haves but are always really handy to have - but they're probably still not worth taking elsewhere. 

The Coven Throne drop is certainly timely, especially with the synergy it has with Summonable since the WD update. 

I will also consider Black Knights in the role of Fell Bats now. They don't have flying, but they have an 18" threat range, mortals on the charge and can be resurrected. If you just want a unit that can absorb an Unleash Hell and die, these guys can potentially do it twice and deal 2d3 mortals in the process.

[Doko]

Im happy for my vampires really all are good buffs(but nagash was deleted and is 100% umplayable in competitive now)

I really tougth blood knigths or grave guard was going to get a hit,glad nothing changed.

Black knigths for me arent competitive untill drop to 75 points for his stats,but 100 is closer,needed a save 4 and a extra damage or rend in lances when charged to be ok.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

Loss of AoD is a bit of a nerf, as several dynasties are lacking in worthwhile artefacts, and our faction does still rely heavily on our heroes, if not as much as before, so reduced durability hurts.

Personally, I think the removal of the Amulet is a buff, not a nerf. A 6+ ward is not really worth giving up an artefact for, so that means our monsters will be tankier than those of most other factions now (or as tanky, but with the option to run a different artefact). Before, we were always begrudgingly running the Amulet, which was less useful to us than to everyone else, since it only buffed our 6+ ward to 5+, instead of letting us go from no ward to 5+. We are free from having to make that unattractive choice now.

I also disagree that most subfactions don't have good artefacts. Any subfaction can make use of the Arcane Tome, and few run more than 1 extra artefact, so you only really need one good one per subfaction. Vyrkos gets the Sangsyron, Blood gets Soulbound Garments and the Oubliette Arcana, Night gets Morbegh's Claw and Shard of Night, and Kastelai gets Fragment of the Keep and Grave-Sand Shard. Avengorii artefacts kind of suck, though.

1 hour ago, Sception said:

That 'reduced durability is a problem' comment applies to nagash, too, as losing his save rerolls is a blow. Less of a blow than in OBR, where he also lost petrifex bonus, self healing, and all obr command abilities (can neither issue nor receive them) but still cant use generic command abilities - someone at gw really doesn't want people to run nagash in obr.  but even in soulblight the new ca, while not bad, is still a noticeable downgrade.

The loss of his command ability hurts, but I don't know if Nagash actually got that much less durable. He should still sit on a 2+ save by default from Mystic Shield, and still has a 4+ ward against mortals, so that's pretty good. And if you actually want to use your casts on something other than Arcane Bolt (which was never really the best option), he has a bunch of debuff spells at this disposal in Gravelords.

What I find more interesting right now, though, is the potential of running Nagash in Nighthaunt. He can get that bodyguard Hexwraith unit in there and the army has really been wanting a big MONSTER WIZARD HERO for a while.

[BaylorCorvette]

Overall these are great changes for the game as a whole. From the SBGL side of things Black Knights have play now and with bats at 75, Black Knights at 100 and Wolves at 135 we have a very good spread of chaff / summonable / fast objective grabbers. Nagash changes seem fine, I'm not really one to play god models so I don't really care personally what they do. All other faction changes are pretty good and I'm glad to see GW was not heavy handed with point changes. Sentinels went up a fair bit which is good, Blood Stalkers going up is good, change to Unleash Hell is great with the reduced range and its MODELS within range not unit so a double nerf to that.  The change to Kragnos is going to be interesting and is going to really put the hurt on armies that do not have chaff to help absorb 3D6 charges. Fortunately SBGL have the chaff to deal. I'm very surprised the Mawcrusha did not go up in points. Also, thank GOD about Amulet of Destiny going to a 6+ ward.

Overall I'm very happy with the updates as it relates to SBGL. A little surprised Belladamma did not get a points increase but hey, my successful tournament army remains unmolested by GW and that's great!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

Overall I'm very happy with the updates as it relates to SBGL. A little surprised Belladamma did not get a points increase but hey, my successful tournament army remains unmolested by GW and that's great!

Yeah, it's nice not to see point increases, actually. I guess that shows that the overall power level GW is shooting for is the one Gravelords are already at. I was slightly concerned GW would increase points on Belladamma and Blood Knights because G-Lords are overall a top third army, but it seems they are fine with leaving the good stuff be and buffing weaker units instead. I like this apporach, and I think if more battletomes were as strong as Gravelords, the game would overall be more fun.

[Sception]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The loss of his command ability hurts, but I don't know if Nagash actually got that much less durable. He should still sit on a 2+ save by default from Mystic Shield, and still has a 4+ ward against mortals, so that's pretty good. And if you actually want to use your casts on something other than Arcane Bolt (which was never really the best option), he has a bunch of debuff spells at this disposal in Gravelords.

What I find more interesting right now, though, is the potential of running Nagash in Nighthaunt. He can get that bodyguard Hexwraith unit in there and the army has really been wanting a big MONSTER WIZARD HERO for a while.

There is a vast gulf between 2+ save and 2+ save, re-rolling ones.  That the ability also allowed every other unit in the army to re-roll ones to save and attack for a single command point was amazing, arguably his strongest individual ability.  The new CA is nice and will see use, I'm not saying nagash is bad by any stretch.  Nagash is still tough.  But is he 1000 points tough?  I'm not sure I see it.  Retardless, the downgrade is undeniable in Soulblight and dramatic in OBR.

Nighthaunt Nagash does look pretty interesting - but I wouldn't get too used to the hexwraith bodyguard.  Even if Emerald Host keeps bodyguard hexwraiths in their next battletome, its quite likely that the benefit will be limited to Nighthaunt generals, not generals of Nighthaunt armies who aren't Nighthaunt themselves, something which wasn't even on the table when the rule was written.  Still, nighthaunt didn't have any version of nagash before, so this is pure upgrade for them.  Especially with how badly they've wanted for monsters and heroes that don't evaporate in a stiff breeze.

EDIT: wait, no, nagash explicitly doesn't benefit from allegiance abilities, so no bodyguard hexwraiths for him, even in the short term.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Sception

[Sception]

Nagash + deathrattle skeletons.  Do you reroll the die for each skeleton to see if they get up, or for each 4+ do you bring back up to 2 skeletons, or do you roll for all the fallen skeletons, bring back one skeleton for each 4+, then bring back one more skeleton for nagash?

[Ghoooouls]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

There is a vast gulf between 2+ save and 2+ save, re-rolling ones.  That the ability also allowed every other unit in the army to re-roll ones to save and attack for a single command point was amazing, arguably his strongest individual ability.  The new CA is nice and will see use, I'm not saying nagash is bad by any stretch.  Nagash is still tough.  But is he 1000 points tough?  I'm not sure I see it.  Retardless, the downgrade is undeniable in Soulblight and dramatic in OBR.

Nighthaunt Nagash does look pretty interesting - but I wouldn't get too used to the hexwraith bodyguard.  Even if Emerald Host keeps bodyguard hexwraiths in their next battletome, its quite likely that the benefit will be limited to Nighthaunt generals, not generals of Nighthaunt armies who aren't Nighthaunt themselves, something which wasn't even on the table when the rule was written.  Still, nighthaunt didn't have any version of nagash before, so this is pure upgrade for them.  Especially with how badly they've wanted for monsters and heroes that don't evaporate in a stiff breeze.

EDIT: wait, no, nagash explicitly doesn't benefit from allegiance abilities, so no bodyguard hexwraiths for him, even in the short term.

That ability also made your entire death army immune to battleshock ON TOP of the rerolls. Absolutely monstrous nerf.

[Sception]

ah, yes, losing army-wide immune to battleshock.  You can tell I've been paying more attention to OBR lately that that needed to be pointed out to me.

Yeah, monstrous nerf to nagash in both gravelords and OBR.  No way he's worth anything close to what he was.  Either 955 was way too cheap for him before (unlikely imo), or he's overpriced by a ton now, like over 100 points.  I think you could reasonably drop him to 800 points even with this scroll.

4+ to wound on his sword, in addition to being something of a nerf, just doesn't feel right thematically at all. The god of death's sword shouldn't have a hard time harming things.  If it needed to be toned down I'd have rather seen the to-hit reduced.

[Honk]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

Yeah, monstrous nerf to nagash

Yes, the changes sound interesting, but since he can’t target himself for a 3+ ward, the old abilities were just better, the supreme lord ability with skellis will cause nerd rage around the tables.

And just thinking: Nagash + guards + old command  vs. N + skellis + new command, not feeling it, especially battleshock.

but together invocation&supreme could buff the regeneration tablewide 🤔

needs testing

 

[Ghoooouls]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

ah, yes, losing army-wide immune to battleshock.  You can tell I've been paying more attention to OBR lately that that needed to be pointed out to me.

Yeah, monstrous nerf to nagash in both gravelords and OBR.  No way he's worth anything close to what he was.  Either 955 was way too cheap for him before (unlikely imo), or he's overpriced by a ton now, like over 100 points.  I think you could reasonably drop him to 800 points even with this scroll.

4+ to wound on his sword, in addition to being something of a nerf, just doesn't feel right thematically at all. The god of death's sword shouldn't have a hard time harming things.  If it needed to be toned down I'd have rather seen the to-hit reduced.

His sword now wounds the same as a skeleton warrior lol.

Also he randomly lost the spirit mortals on 6s...

Edited December 21, 2021 by Ghoooouls