General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[Doko]

5 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Some observations after 10+ games vs Lumineth with 5-6 different factions..

They have multiple tiers of "frustration causing attributes".  Here are just a few of them.

1) They have a lot of allegiance abilities. Like in some cases 5-6x what a "fat-middle" faction would have. Every unit being a spell caster would seemingly be enough, but combine that with with 6+ mortals, shining company, Aether quartz, 2x activation and sub faction abilities, and if just feels like they do more than any other army. Their incoming faction terrain just exacerbates this. (its probably the best faction terrain in the game, and note that some armies like Sylvaneth only have faction terrain as their primary allegiance ability. 

2) Teclis has an overwhelming board presence. Being able to auto-cast spells is unprecedented. But so is doubling command abilities, auto dispels, providing a 4+ spell bounce, FNP, and bravery debuff.  He impacts significantly too many things, especially compared to other characters of his like/cost (alarielle and morathi). 

3) The army promotes castle playstyle. Sentinels and Teclis being the obvious offenders here.  People hate on Tau (and old WFB Dwarfs) for a reason. Its not an enjoyable way to play the game. It might be ok if it was the only issue, but when combined with the others it just makes it worse.

4) They stop your army from functioning. Some armies such as Hallowheart and non-netlist Tzeentch win games with magic. Some armies such as Dreadwood, Fyreslayers or Legion of Nagash win games with very specific command abilities. Some armies such as Nighthaunt and DoK win games by buffing units with very fragile characters. Some armies such as BoC or Cities can be crippled with leadership debuffs.  Lumineth has answers to all of these, easily and reliably baked in. 

 

Sir you have written everyone tougth about lumineths in one post very well written(so much better than mines).

Only i think you forgot the point 5.

5) catallar,lumineths have low ld and have aether stone to get huge buffs with a drawback in ld for entire game.but only with a 100 points model they can:

-ignore the drawbacks of low ld

-ignore the penalty of use stones

-transform the penalty of stones in a huge penalty for the rival together to the extra skill of the catalar of lower ld

-a 100 points models doing 100% for sure (together the combo teclis and endles spell)useless the key unit of the rival of 500-1000 points

To me she is the biggest problem and first thing that must be nerfed\changed because i is stupid.

Btw this is mi last post about lumineths,gw wont read any of this and wont buff or nerf or change anithing for nothing written here.

[Ragest]

15 minutes ago, BadDice0809 said:

That particular combo costs you 1200 points focused in TWO MODELS and you are complaining about it? And think its fine a generic 140 character shuts it down.

Along with an absolutely out of nowhere "deletes a model you have paid over 100 euro for" argument.... seriously what?

If that is somehow a legitimate argument to make (and its not its hilariously bad) then why should your 35 dollar model lock down my over a 100 dollar mawcrusha? 

Talking about money is the same as talking about points. So that will be more fair if I stop Archaon with Teclis? Will be more fair if I Autolose vs Gargants and Archaon lists? We are good letting unbeteable lists being on rampage around the game becasue you have invested some points and you want that points to be unstoppable?

If you want Lumineth lists to lose without being capable of doing anything just say it, and don't hide your desires.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Ragest

[whispersofblood]

6 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Some observations after 10+ games vs Lumineth with 5-6 different factions..

They have multiple tiers of "frustration causing attributes".  Here are just a few of them.

1) They have a lot of allegiance abilities. Like in some cases 5-6x what a "fat-middle" faction would have. Every unit being a spell caster would seemingly be enough, but combine that with with 6+ mortals, shining company, Aether quartz, 2x activation and sub faction abilities, and if just feels like they do more than any other army. Their incoming faction terrain just exacerbates this. (its probably the best faction terrain in the game, and note that some armies like Sylvaneth only have faction terrain as their primary allegiance ability. 

2) Teclis has an overwhelming board presence. Being able to auto-cast spells is unprecedented. But so is doubling command abilities, auto dispels, providing a 4+ spell bounce, FNP, and bravery debuff.  He impacts significantly too many things, especially compared to other characters of his like/cost (alarielle and morathi). 

3) The army promotes castle playstyle. Sentinels and Teclis being the obvious offenders here.  People hate on Tau (and old WFB Dwarfs) for a reason. Its not an enjoyable way to play the game. It might be ok if it was the only issue, but when combined with the others it just makes it worse.

4) They stop your army from functioning. Some armies such as Hallowheart and non-netlist Tzeentch win games with magic. Some armies such as Dreadwood, Fyreslayers or Legion of Nagash win games with very specific command abilities. Some armies such as Nighthaunt and DoK win games by buffing units with very fragile characters. Some armies such as BoC or Cities can be crippled with leadership debuffs.  Lumineth has answers to all of these, easily and reliably baked in. 

 

1) Ok so what? Why does that matter other than grounds for envy or a loose sense of "fairness"?

2) He is a God. If you don't think the flying combat God's have a profound presense on the board you are kidding yourself. The very critisism of Allarielle is it doesn't feel like piloting a God. 

3) This is because people play smash my opponent and that just coincidentally allows them to win the game as it is. It's frustrating the number of times at huge events like Adepticon, that I've traded every model in my army for points and my opponent couldn't figure out what was happening because of tunnel vision, and then be indignant they lost. The game is about dominating the majority of objectives for at least 3 turns. You cannot do that and castle simultaneously. Play the game in front of you. 

4) This isn't generally true. People choose to build their armies around gimmicks. Most modern factions don't need these abilities by default, they are ways to make an advantagous position determinate. Fyreslayers are actually a far better tool box than LRL and you can't stop most of it, that is why they consistently put up numbers. It's the Orruk fallacy all over again, you can't interrupt any of the Orruk factions when built to purpose. But because dice are rolled it feels like you are involved or there is some risk of failure. The LRL process is much more interruptible AND less likely to remove models from the board. The outcome is just easier to define, which tbh suits the narrative pretty well.

[madmac]

6 minutes ago, Doko said:

Sir you have written everyone tougth about lumineths in one post very well written(so much better than mines).

Only i think you forgot the point 5.

5) catallar,lumineths have low ld and have aether stone to get huge buffs with a drawback in ld for entire game.but only with a 100 points model they can:

-ignore the drawbacks of low ld

-ignore the penalty of use stones

-transform the penalty of stones in a huge penalty for the rival together to the extra skill of the catalar of lower ld

-a 100 points models doing 100% for sure (together the combo teclis and endles spell)useless the key unit of the rival of 500-1000 points

To me she is the biggest problem and first thing that must be nerfed\changed because i is stupid.

Btw this is mi last post about lumineths,gw wont read any of this and wont buff or nerf or change anithing for nothing written here.

140 Point Model

Can protect one unit from battleshock, once per turn, if they are within range

Absorb Despair likewise is not spammable by a single Cathallar and has a range limitation

If you want to assume Darkness of the Soul is autocast because of Teclis and Twinstones, add  another 690 points, for a total of 830

[BadDice0809]

22 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Talking about money is the same as talking about points. So that will be more fair if I stop Archaon with Teclis?

I'll say, first of all, you have obviously gotten to a point in this conversation were rationality has completely left the station, if you SERIOUSLY believe "money is the same as talking about points." I'm not going to waste more time attacking that absolutely idiotic statement, but will direct you to places like Warhammer Weekly, were there has been discussion that most armies cost around 660 US dollars, and pricing of individual units to a list roughly conflates to this.

22 minutes ago, Ragest said:

If you want Lumineth lists to lose without being capable of doing anything just say it, and don't hide your desires.

Hey bro why don't you assume and project a little bit more in your posts? 

As Landohammer explained extremely well above, there are legitimate grievances people feel with playing against this particular army. No one is being so stupid and over broad as to say "this army should just lose without being capable of doing anything."

When your arguments start reaching this level, it might be time to step away from the keyboard/phone.

Edited March 26, 2021 by BadDice0809

[zilberfrid]

15 minutes ago, Ragest said:

Talking about money is the same as talking about points.

If you want Lumineth lists to lose without being capable of doing anything just say it, and don't hide your desires.

Talking about money is far from the same as talking about points.

Points affect game balance, money just accessability.

I would even argue that, for the rules discussion, balance isn't that important. It's a factor, but it's not the biggest one.

Balance can be fixed later, and I can have a good time even when losing. I can also win on points, but still have a bad time. Sure, most of that would be about things other than the rules on paper, but these are a factor.

[JustAsPlanned]

49 minutes ago, Feii said:

LRL players in this thread are biased AF. Seriously a cult of Teclis lmao. 

Thanks for the inflammatory and generalised statement dude, it’s really gonna help cool things down. 

[Landohammer]

3 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

1) Ok so what? Why does that matter other than grounds for envy or a loose sense of "fairness"?  Well my post was regarding player frustration, not necessarily balance. But yes I do consider fairness to be a significantly large factor in wargames. 

2) He is a God. If you don't think the flying combat God's have a profound presense on the board you are kidding yourself. The very critisism of Allarielle is it doesn't feel like piloting a God.  Thats fine. If he is going to have god tier impact on the game then he needs to be costed like other units with that level of effect. Archaon and Nagash are a lot more than 600pts and are arguably less effective. 

3) This is because people play smash my opponent and that just coincidentally allows them to win the game as it is. It's frustrating the number of times at huge events like Adepticon, that I've traded every model in my army for points and my opponent couldn't figure out what was happening because of tunnel vision, and then be indignant they lost. The game is about dominating the majority of objectives for at least 3 turns. You cannot do that and castle simultaneously. Play the game in front of you.  Again, my post is about frustration/player experience moreso than balance. But yes this is exactly how I personally beat them. Smash their lines with aggressive units and camp on objectives. So we agree here. But one caveat of this playstyle is Dawnriders having access to double move. They already overperform for their points, but they become an extremely powerful tool in an army that is already the best at other things. Imagine giving Tau access to jumppack marines, or old Dwarfs access to Wildriders. 

4) This isn't generally true. People choose to build their armies around gimmicks. Most modern factions don't need these abilities by default, they are ways to make an advantagous position determinate. Fyreslayers are actually a far better tool box than LRL and you can't stop most of it, that is why they consistently put up numbers. It's the Orruk fallacy all over again, you can't interrupt any of the Orruk factions when built to purpose. But because dice are rolled it feels like you are involved or there is some risk of failure. The LRL process is much more interruptible AND less likely to remove models from the board. The outcome is just easier to define, which tbh suits the narrative pretty well.

This entire game is based on gimmicks, that's why its so fun. We all like to build lists that do wacky/interesting things. It might not be a problem for someone fielding S tier net lists in tourneys, but for the general public who plays fun middle tier lists in leagues and game nights its pretty dang disruptive. Also how is auto-casting spells, double activation, and sniping characters from 36inches away (without LOS) interruptible?

If your primary point is that LRL aren't OP, then we can probably agree on that. They are still an A tier faction but experienced players can and do beat them. But my primary point is that the army is extremely frustrating to play against, and that is only exacerbated at the casual level. 

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

47 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Some observations after 10+ games vs Lumineth with 5-6 different factions..

They have multiple tiers of "frustration causing attributes".  Here are just a few of them.

1) They have a lot of allegiance abilities. Like in some cases 5-6x what a "fat-middle" faction would have. Every unit being a spell caster would seemingly be enough, but combine that with with 6+ mortals, shining company, Aether quartz, 2x activation and sub faction abilities, and if just feels like they do more than any other army. Their incoming faction terrain just exacerbates this. (its probably the best faction terrain in the game, and note that some armies like Sylvaneth only have faction terrain as their primary allegiance ability. 

2) Teclis has an overwhelming board presence. Being able to auto-cast spells is unprecedented. But so is doubling command abilities, auto dispels, providing a 4+ spell bounce, FNP, and bravery debuff.  He impacts significantly too many things, especially compared to other characters of his like/cost (alarielle and morathi). 

3) The army promotes castle playstyle. Sentinels and Teclis being the obvious offenders here.  People hate on Tau (and old WFB Dwarfs) for a reason. Its not an enjoyable way to play the game. It might be ok if it was the only issue, but when combined with the others it just makes it worse.

4) They stop your army from functioning. Some armies such as Hallowheart and non-netlist Tzeentch win games with magic. Some armies such as Dreadwood, Fyreslayers or Legion of Nagash win games with very specific command abilities. Some armies such as Nighthaunt and DoK win games by buffing units with very fragile characters. Some armies such as BoC or Cities can be crippled with leadership debuffs.  Lumineth has answers to all of these, easily and reliably baked in. 

 

From what we know about the new units, it also seems like Lumineth will now be able to generate a lot of CP and gain a few highly mobile unit options. I think this is relevant because it ties into the problem of "How do you get to do so many things?".

[Landohammer]

1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

From what we know about the new units, it also seems like Lumineth will now be able to generate a lot of CP and gain a few highly mobile unit options. I think this is relevant because it ties into the problem of "How do you get to do so many things?".

Agreed. I fear their terrain piece alone is going to drastically increase the pre-existing perceptions/problems of the army. 

Access to heals is another issue, since their biggest weakness is attrition. 

Personally I am most afraid of the forced retreat ability. That is going to be absolutely huge. Being able to control units in their own movement phase is ludicrous 

[madmac]

3 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Agreed. I fear their terrain piece alone is going to drastically increase the pre-existing perceptions/problems of the army. 

Access to heals is another issue, since their biggest weakness is attrition. 

Personally I am most afraid of the forced retreat ability. That is going to be absolutely huge. Being able to control units in their own movement phase is ludicrous 

I just don't understand a lot of these points.

Access to a d3 heal that doesn't restore models, on a faction that is mostly 1-2 wound models is barely a thing, especially because it's a Wind Lore spell and not a generic one. It's unlikely it'll ever even be used by anyone except Teclis, and even for him it would be a low priority spell.

Giving LRL access to additional Command Points feels like an attempt to promote a different style of play, but the army has pretty much no notable Command Abilities, so you're more or less limited to using generic command abilities with very limited range by that one guy sitting on a stationary terrain piece. 

The forced retreat is a once per game artifact that has to be taken by, I can almost promise you exclusively the Wind Mage, and the fact that it activates on the enemies turn is what makes it so situational--It's literally impossible to use unless your artifact holder mage charged into combat, or was charged by the enemy on the proceeding turn, and survived one round of combat in order to push them away the following turn.

I just can't take these complaints of oppressive negative play experiences seriously when so many of the gripes are for utterly frivolous things that no one would look twice at in a different army.

[BadDice0809]

1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

From what we know about the new units, it also seems like Lumineth will now be able to generate a lot of CP and gain a few highly mobile unit options. I think this is relevant because it ties into the problem of "How do you get to do so many things?".

Let's not forgot the absolutely NPE incarnate ability the GW community article seemed almost proud to hype... the "any direction" pile in the Roo Rangers have baked into their scroll (increased to 6" on the charge for good measure).

Everyone knows that yes, you can't fit it ALL into one list. But its still such a spread of abilities like this that make you roll your eyes.

Oh not taking Teclis? Okay then is it 40 30" range archers with MWs on 5/6s (unmodified of course)? Or maybe it's a few units of Roos to charge across the field, and tie up your entire army with Slaanesh like "i pile in 6" any direction and stay at 3" to lock your unit." Oh your army relies on weak buff heros? Sentinel snipe. You need CP to work? Let's double the cost (and now just turn CP off on a unit). High defense army? 1/3 of my attacks are MWs to bypass this. Combat smash army? Well good thing on a 2+, YOU get to take my battleshock test. Heavy magic? I will contest every cast. It goes on and on and on... 

There is always an answer in this army. That makes it even worse in casual play. Imagine someone who only has a single primary army- LRL can be built to shut it down, almost without exception. Its not fun to either always be fighting an uphill battle, or to know the only reason you are having a "good" game with a decent chance to win is because the other player deliberately gimps themselves.

[Landohammer]

1 minute ago, madmac said:

I just don't understand a lot of these points.

Access to a d3 heal that doesn't restore models, on a faction that is mostly 1-2 wound models is barely a thing, especially because it's a Wind Lore spell and not a generic one. It's unlikely it'll ever even be used by anyone except Teclis, and even for him it would be a low priority spell.

Giving LRL access to additional Command Points feels like an attempt to promote a different style of play, but the army has pretty much no notable Command Abilities, so you're more or less limited to using generic command abilities with very limited range by that one guy sitting on a stationary terrain piece. 

The forced retreat is a once per game artifact that has to be taken by, I can almost promise you exclusively the Wind Mage, and the fact that it activates on the enemies turn is what makes it so situational--It's literally impossible to use unless your artifact holder mage charged into combat, or was charged by the enemy on the proceeding turn, and survived one round of combat in order to push them away the following turn.

I just can't take these complaints of oppressive negative play experiences seriously when so many of the gripes are for utterly frivolous things that no one would look twice at in a different army.

Fair. Maybe I need to see the new stuff in action before I pronounce judgment. But what I DO know is that the army currently has very problematic qualities. 

Maybe these 11 new units and free terrain piece won't make them a more controlling army, but I guarantee they won't make them less controlling. 

[BadDice0809]

13 minutes ago, madmac said:

 

I just can't take these complaints of oppressive negative play experiences seriously when so many of the gripes are for utterly frivolous things that no one would look twice at in a different army.

You and a few others seem to be missing the primary point. Its not just that these are NPE, its that so many of them are contained WITHIN ONE ARMY. 

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Feii said:

LRL players in this thread are biased AF. Seriously a cult of Teclis lmao. 

I disagree.

There is of course a gradient in opinions, but (for instance) Luminethmage is quite decent, even though the opponents can be quite harsh. Case in point.

We're criticizing most of the rules of their army, that they spent a lot of money on and time on, like the lore and look of, and had fun playing. They could have put over a hundred hours into this, and people are not exactly nice in how they word their opinions. I know I reread some stuff that I wrote that should have been nicer.

For people that like "control" type armies, or just in general armies that break the mold, the opinions of people that do not like that way of playing the game -and much less facing it- would be at least somewhat strange.

Edited March 26, 2021 by zilberfrid

[JonnyTheKing]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

Talking about money is the same as talking about points. So that will be more fair if I stop Archaon with Teclis? Will be more fair if I Autolose vs Gargants and Archaon lists? We are good letting unbeteable lists being on rampage around the game becasue you have invested some points and you want that points to be unstoppable?

If you want Lumineth lists to lose without being capable of doing anything just say it, and don't hide your desires.

Most players here will tell you that they don’t want Lumineth to be bad, they just want mechanics that don’t just completely stop dice rolling. As I said earlier on this thread, I’ve played around 10 games against Lumineth with my Ironjawz or Big Waaagh! I have not lost once (couple draws) but I never came away from the table feeling like I had a fun game because I was constantly getting my already important CP stripped from me, my hit rolls getting reduced (nee stuff making this even more hooray!) units with already bad bravery getting reduced further and having units not being able to do any actions. Sentinels (extra range on these guys who ignore line of sight too soon!) and Cathallar are both problem units, this is undeniable at this point, it’s well known how powerful and oppressive they are, sure do love my entire Gore Grunta units running away because they decimated a unit of Wardens but 1 managed to survive and I then get the battleshock reflected onto me 

 

it’s not about an army being good or bad, it never has, it’s the fact that they just have boring, unfun mechanics, so far I think the new wave looks mostly ok, outside of a couple from the leaks. You cannot tell me you wouldn’t take Sentinels even at 200 points, that just shows how incredibly powerful they are right now.  A lot of players are just down on them because they do most mechanics now and also bypass core rules.

[JonnyTheKing]

I’d also like to add both friends who play Lumineth have told me they feel bad about playing them now too because they are getting basically everything 

[Ragest]

10 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

I’d also like to add both friends who play Lumineth have told me they feel bad about playing them now too because they are getting basically everything 

Is not just your friend, I got bored about Syar Teclis the first month and never played again (unless one of my friends want to test the list for an upcoming tournament) but there are so many ways to play lumineth and most the problems people have are coming from the same front, the syar teclis list that I was talking about. 
And when I play my zaitrec list with no teclis i have to heard “boring 4 autocast spells” even if I don’t have that and when i'm playing my full Ymetrica list i have to heard people complaning about how broken sentinels are (with just 10) and how reliable are my mages (with any buff to cast but eating my stone)

And that's the problem for me. If you don’t like teclis syar, say you don’t like teclis syar but don’t put every lumineth player in the same place.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Ragest

[JonnyTheKing]

1 minute ago, Ragest said:

Is not just your friend, I got bored about Syar Teclis the first month and never played again (unless one of my friends want to test the list for an upcoming tournament) but there are so many ways to play lumineth and most the problems people have are coming from the same front, the syar teclis list that I was talking about. 
And when I play my zaitrec list with no teclis i have to heard “boring 4 autocast spells” even if I don’t have that and when i'm playing my full Ymetrica list i have to heard people complaning about how broken sentinels are (with just 10) and how reliable are my mages (with any buff to cast but eating my stone)

And that's the problem for me. If you don’t like teclis syar, say you don’t like teclis syar but don’t put every lumineth player in the same place)

My friend doesn’t play a meta list though at all? I don’t know why you’d assume that? It is possible to have problems with Lumineth outside of meta lists because those uninteractive abilities can still exist in other lists.  The games I’ve had involving Teclis have been fine overall more so than other games, probably helped by the fact that my Orruk lists run maybe 1 caster

the problem games have literally involved higher numbers of Sentinels and a Cathallar or 2 because they just stop me rolling dice, it’s boring at the end of the day, it’s simple as that

again, nobody has an agenda, as shown here you automatically presumed it was a meta list I was going up against, when in fact every time the lists have had differences in them, people can just have genuine problems with clearly overpowered warscrolls in the game. I’d argue that Lumineth are most fun when going more with the Stoneguard and battle cow stuff 

[Enoby]

36 minutes ago, BadDice0809 said:

and tie up your entire army with Slaanesh like "i pile in 6" any direction and stay at 3" to lock your unit."

This is really to the side, but their 6" pile in works very differently to Slaanesh's The Lumineth pile in 6" but not from 6" away, so still have be within 3" to use this. This makes it a defensive move as you can move away with them if they get charged - so like a retreat instead of an attack. Slaanesh's pile in 6" from 6" away, which makes it more like an always strike first, retreat and charge 6", and run and charge 6", which is an offensive move.

A lot of people think Lumineth's 6" pile in works like Slaanesh's, but they're very different in play so I wanted to clarify 

[Ragest]

4 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

My friend doesn’t play a meta list though at all? I don’t know why you’d assume that? It is possible to have problems with Lumineth outside of meta lists because those uninteractive abilities can still exist in other lists.  The games I’ve had involving Teclis have been fine overall more so than other games, probably helped by the fact that my Orruk lists run maybe 1 caster

the problem games have literally involved higher numbers of Sentinels and a Cathallar or 2 because they just stop me rolling dice, it’s boring at the end of the day, it’s simple as that

again, nobody has an agenda, as shown here you automatically presumed it was a meta list I was going up against, when in fact every time the lists have had differences in them, people can just have genuine problems with clearly overpowered warscrolls in the game. I’d argue that Lumineth are most fun when going more with the Stoneguard and battle cow stuff 

How many dices is the Cathallar preventing you to roll? Her warscroll spell? You throw 2 to deny it and you throw to make an action, in fact, you are rolling more dices, not less dices.

And Sentinels? Are you talking about MW? But you are not rolling dices because the long profile is that bad that only MW cares. But is not the same vs high rend normal attacks? I can’t save them so I’m not rolling dices, and will be better if Sentinels or wardens make additional MW? So you roll more dices.

That “I just want to roll dices” is pretty absurd at this point. The only effect that prevents you to roll is Teclis keeping the autodispel to your last/only spell.

But, is less frustrating to roll dices to not getting anything in return? When you hit with everything to a Bastilladon with just -1 rend while the lizard is having RR 1s to save? Or idoneth, I can’t shoot idoneth in turn 1, idoneth attacks with everything in turn 3, i have to cry about that? No, i understand his gimmick and I prepare an strategy against.

Because most of the crys I read are more like “I just want to charge and make everything I want when I want” than “lets see how I can make a plan to bypass Lumineth stuff”. Tactical movements and decisions are not tied to a roll, and are the most important part of the game.

[Acid_Nine]

At this point, it is starting to sound like the entire enemy turn is a NPE.

 

 

no, not just lumineth either. Every enemy turn. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Acid_Nine

[JonnyTheKing]

10 minutes ago, Ragest said:

How many dices is the Cathallar preventing you to roll? Her warscroll spell? You throw 2 to deny it and you throw to make an action, in fact, you are rolling more dices, not less dices.

And Sentinels? Are you talking about MW? But you are not rolling dices because the long profile is that bad that only MW cares. But is not the same vs high rend normal attacks? I can’t save them so I’m not rolling dices, and will be better if Sentinels or wardens make additional MW? So you roll more dices.

That “I just want to roll dices” is pretty absurd at this point. The only effect that prevents you to roll is Teclis keeping the autodispel to your last/only spell.

But, is less frustrating to roll dices to not getting anything in return? When you hit with everything to a Bastilladon with just -1 rend while the lizard is having RR 1s to save? Or idoneth, I can’t shoot idoneth in turn 1, idoneth attacks with everything in turn 3, i have to cry about that? No, i understand his gimmick and I prepare an strategy against.

Because most of the crys I read are more like “I just want to charge and make everything I want when I want” than “lets see how I can make a plan to bypass Lumineth stuff”. Tactical movements and decisions are not tied to a roll, and are the most important part of the game.

Dude, no offence, the fact you are boiling it down to just dice rolls shows that you yourself are refusing to let people have genuine criticism of the army and saying “it’s just bias” and shows that you truly don’t understand what the player on the opposite end of the board is experiencing 

Cathallar - You act like unbinding the Cathallar is easy, especially when they get bonuses to cast and soon a Reroll too, my one shaman with no bonuses to cast will surely do excellent against that. This combined with -bravery, I’m sure my bravery 3 or 4 Brutes will pass this often 😂

Sentinels - You are joking right? If you don’t understand the value on 30 inch ranged mortal wounds I don’t know what to tell you, especially when you bypass  the main weakness of shooting which is line of sight blocking terrain.

As I have said, I have won or drawn every game, my tactics against Lumineth are perfectly sound, but I do not enjoy playing them because some of their rules are just badly designed, it’s simple as that.

If you like them then that’s great, more power to you, but people are allowed to have genuine complaints that have solid reasoning behind them and not be told “stop playing against meta lists” or “you’re just not playing tactically enough” is not a good argument 

[whispersofblood]

30 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

1) Well my post was regarding player frustration, not necessarily balance. But yes I do consider fairness to be a significantly large factor in wargames. 

2) Thats fine. If he is going to have god tier impact on the game then he needs to be costed like other units with that level of effect. Archaon and Nagash are a lot more than 600pts and are arguably less effective. 

3)  Again, my post is about frustration/player experience moreso than balance. But yes this is exactly how I personally beat them. Smash their lines with aggressive units and camp on objectives. So we agree here. But one caveat of this playstyle is Dawnriders having access to double move. They already overperform for their points, but they become an extremely powerful tool in an army that is already the best at other things. Imagine giving Tau access to jumppack marines, or old Dwarfs access to Wildriders. 

4) This entire game is based on gimmicks, that's why its so fun. We all like to build lists that do wacky/interesting things. It might not be a problem for someone fielding S tier net lists in tourneys, but for the general public who plays fun middle tier lists in leagues and game nights its pretty dang disruptive. Also how is auto-casting spells, double activation, and sniping characters from 36inches away (without LOS) interruptible?

If your primary point is that LRL aren't OP, then we can probably agree on that. They are still an A tier faction but experienced players can and do beat them. But my primary point is that the army is extremely frustrating to play against, and that is only exacerbated at the casual level. 

1) What this argument continuously fails to address is where is the accountability of the player base to learn something new and evolve. I would also point out that once arguments persistently break down to nebulous perspectives on on abstract ideas that the thing itself is probably fine and it is the viewer that must evolve and contend with reality. The reality is that nothing, and no combination of "NPE" in the faction in question is wholly new in itself and that what is happening is that people are letting their feelings bleed across multiple discrete aspects of this faction. How can you have a lack of agency but have outcomes which match your desires? Are you seriously arguing that LRL players are losing the game by their own choice? A "fair" distribution of rules? Who cares mate, factions get the rules they need to implement that narrative the designers want to show. 

2) You realize of course that Archaon and Nagash are better than Teclis and therefore cost more. This discussion has just continued to highlight for me that most people don't  know the warscrolls outside their primary faction well at all. The previous play who said Archaon was "Locked down", that's a ridiculous statement not only is it basically impossible, but what value does such an extreme corner case bring other than to colour a discussion which requires a deep understanding of the game with ill-feeling? And to be frank, I don't believe these things happened.

3) Dawnriders are good unit, a very specific unit that is good at the things its good at, and not very much else. The problem is people play on autopilot, fall into traps and then call the traps "NPE". That's unacceptable and we should be holding each other to a better standard than that. LRL aren't Tau, they don't put out that much range damage at all, its hyperbolic internet hearsay. Also, Ta'u are terrible in 40k. 80 Sentinels puts out 25 dmg for 1120 points, that is pathetic in this game. It is ridiculous that I have to keep debunking all of these objectively untrue statements. LRL just barely have enough to play the game (As in the game on the board, scoring points to win the game), their thing instead of dmg is constraining the opponent which if people here are to believed about their playing results seems to fail more often than not. Examples like "I couldn't do all the things I wanted to do, but I won the game regardless." Come on you must be having a laugh, that statement includes the premise that you don't need to do those things. People just lean on this they aren't OP statement so that they can't be held to task for providing actual evidence beyond their own alleged emotional state at the alleged time of play.

4) Some degree of people choose to build around a gimmick, but that isn't what the game is about. Most gimmicks are easy to dismantle, which is why most netlists only go 3-2 the majority of the time. They come up against a competent player and swiftly lose. If you build to a gimmick then that choice includes the assumptions that you can lose to gimmicks. As to how to interrupt LRL? Single model units, measuring ranges, thinking of ways to score points so that the LRL has to come out of their shell, force 2 Battleshock tests. You know... play the game. Frustration usually is the precursor for learning, and frequently passes when a person finds a path to their objective. 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

So I'll preface by saying I don't play LRL, but I have played against them a lota s there are 5 LRL players in my local area + a couple that come from out of town for tournaments when we could still have those. Personally I play OBR, have been playing slaanesh for a few years and used to run LoN.

I'll start by saying I like LRL in a general sense, all wizard armies are a cool gimmick, the encouragement of rank and file is nice and it's satiated the cries of at least have the old high elf nerds (as someone who witnessed the white lion+alariel list in action i'll admit to some schadenfreude). LRL power wise are on the better half of the scale but aren't KO or a seraphon kroak goon squad by any measure. But unlike KO or tzeentch or even non kroak seraphon (kroak deserves a rant of his own) I can't help but sigh whenever i see a vanari list across the table from me despite having a good personal win rate against them. Now my issue is purely with the vanari core of the army, the cathalar IMO is fine albeit i can see why people who play armies with low mobility or shooting hate her. Teclis is cool and I've had the Teclis Vs Nagash smackdown before which was fun, it did make me feel like nagash should be costed similar to Teclis but similar to my opinions about the new slaanesh book, some point changes are all that's needed (except fiendbloods, their a universal disappointment). The new stuff that's coming looks cool and I like the movement shenanigans hurikan is getting because similar to slaanesh it makes list that make or break in the movement phase (which is a playstyle i personally enjoy). People are kicking up a fuss over LRL getting fast units that can bounce out of combat without realizing that they can just charge into or shoot them when it comes around to their turn, the hurikan stuff is made of paper but hey that's nothing new to slaanesh so welcome to the club you knife eared nerds. And free CP? Sure, they'll just spend that on... rerolling 1s for archers? Autorun 6 on their first turn? The army has no good commands outside of syar and the free cp is only for the wizard on a stationary terrain piece. The magic buffing effect is a little cutting tho, you guys already have casting buffs and everything is a wizard do you really need to double down? But ****** do vanari sap all the fun out of an otherwise cool army. It isn't just that they do mortal wounds and can buff that rule, but that it's so lazily copy pasted across an army's worth of units.

I'm being hyperbolic when i say this because of course it's mathematically close to impossible but it feels like I've had games where I never rolled a single save. Not only has GW created an army that can do a build where everything does mortal wounds, but it's due to the same lazily copy pasted rule. No duh it's the only build you see at tournaments and it will probably continue to be the better build after this update because as cool as the new stuff is, pure vanari with teclis require less skill and you don't have to worry about a matchup where your opponent is fast enough to catch your speedy hurikan units when you bring reliable mortal wound spam instead. It's not even that powerful, it's just irritatingly consistent that no matter what you do your gonna be eating mortals from something.

Man I pray to the god of failures that is Teclis that people start using Hurikan stuff, I wanna experience wild cat and mouse games between windchargers and slickblades. Double activations make windcharger pile aways pretty good but lets see it save them from 6" follow ups from my own cav. The temple units just all seem to have that "high elves with blackjack and hookers" feel that vanari are missing from having the animal influences and the cool rules. Even if the mountain cows are just objectively better than a keeper of secrets for the same points I'd rather face 3 of them than any amount of vanari.

My vanari rant aside, a lot of the salt around the army in general seems to be from this "all that and a bag of chips" mentality. LRL have doubled in size in only a year and are quickly usurping stormcast as the jack of all trades army. Of course they haven't hit that point yet, they still lack stuff like heavy cav or core units with actual variety, but they're getting there fast and I can see people getting a similar bad taste space marines have been giving people from sheer amount of support GW is giving them. Seriously GW we've seen the next two BR books titles but we still have no previews for what the other 3 armies in BR Teclis are getting? (aside from the now teased bilepiper changes) Honestly I believe GW only have maybe 5 more new armies in them at best and that we'll eventually reach a point where every army has that sense of depth most 40k armies do. That comes from decades of support tho and LRL are just getting there faster than others.

At least the bilepiper changes show there's stuff that wasn't in the FB "theories" and means there's a possibility these "theories" aren't as true as they seem. And I'd hope so because the battalion for obr they "theorized" is just an objectively worse kavalos lance.

Anyways TL;DR LRL are cool, temples are cool, vanari are lazily designed wastes of space and we should get more fun temple stuff. People are viewing these rules in a vacuum and not looking at the more complex picture of how they interact across a 3 turn game. 

Yes there are bad matchups that get stomped by lumineth, welcome to a meta where fyreslayers exist and man let me tell you they the joys (/s) of fighting seraphon with the kroak squad and solar engines before I had mortals for my slaanesh.  Yes it can give a bad impression when every warscroll card is going to be 2 pages to account for all the rules but man I can't help but look at the lore seeker and see a lord arcanum who traded their CA, warscroll spell, revive aura, flasks and better arcane bolt... for 40k obsec?