General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

That's what I was talking about in my posts!! NPE is 100% subjective, and when you accept that mechanic (so you have some games under your belt), it can become two things: 

1. If you find that it's just a "new mechanic to take in mind", you will play around it, like any "core" mechanic. That's what usually happens with specific army traits (bad moon, ambushes, move on hero phase, etc...).
2. If the mechanic feels OP (that varies from army to army and from player to player), it becomes toxic, something "unfair" to play against (NPE).

I'd like to push back here a little, just because calling a negative play experience 100% subjective implies it's a lot less of a "real" phenomenon than it actually is. It sort of reads (although I don't think you believe this) as if whether or not a mechanic causes NPEs is only dependent on the mentality of individal players, and as if all mechanics have similar potential to cause NPEs.

While it's correct that just from the meaning of the term, whether or not you feel negatively about a certain mechanic or interaction in a game is subjective (it's about your personal feelings after all), if we look at the reaction of the player base as a whole we can see that certain types of mechanic are more likely to cause negative experiences in players. That implies that there is something about the mechanics themselves that has the potential to provoke such a response. The negative experience is not just due to the player's preferences (or if it is, those preferences are not random, either). And I think we can point towards common features of NPE mechanics: Reducing interactivity or agency; making players feel like NPCs; preventing interesting things from happening; invalidating decisions... All of these features are distinct, but broadly similar, and I believe they are at the root of those mechanics that provoke the most negativity.

While we are at it, I also want to point out that it is legitimate in some cases to criticize subjective opinion. For example, if an opinion conflicts with the facts. For example, if someone were to say that high charge bonuses cause NPE because they are non-interactive, we can definitely criticize that opinion by pointing out that nearly all armies have the option to take chaff units. If someone claims that a certain mechanic causes a negative experience for a certain reason, if that explanation can be valid or not, and we can disagree about it's validity. However, what we can't really argue with the fact that the person making the claim hada negative experience with the mechanic. And if we see this experience with enough people, even if they don't agree on it's cause, we need to take it seriously.

Finally, it's also good to keep in mind that not all bad mechanics are NPE mechanics. While bad design, balance and NPE are related, they don't always coincide. The new Lumineth Blademasters are a good example of arguably bad design: Kind of underpowered, one attack profile does not match the fiction super well (this random elf is the best swordsman in all of the land, because he always hits), the other is fiddly and will be tedious to play with (trying to fit as many enemies into your 3" bubble to get the maximum number of attacks, for 5+ individual models). From a balance and design standpoint they are not great, but it's hard to argue that this is an NPE problem.

[SorryLizard]

Question about the battalion for the Windchargers.

It lets them count as charging. If a unit charged it gets to pile in even if there is no enemy unit within 3 inches.

E.g.: Your unit charged but the enemy unit dies before your unit got to pile in and fight. Your unit still gets to pile in 3 towards something else.

Does this mean that your Windchargers get to make their 6 inch flying pile in move even if they're nowhere close to an enemy and thus get some extra hit and run movement shenanigans during the charge phase?

Do they count as charging during the opponent's charge phase as well?

[whispersofblood]

42 minutes ago, SorryLizard said:

Question about the battalion for the Windchargers.

It lets them count as charging. If a unit charged it gets to pile in even if there is no enemy unit within 3 inches.

E.g.: Your unit charged but the enemy unit dies before your unit got to pile in and fight. Your unit still gets to pile in 3 towards something else.

Does this mean that your Windchargers get to make their 6 inch flying pile in move even if they're nowhere close to an enemy and thus get some extra hit and run movement shenanigans during the charge phase?

Do they count as charging during the opponent's charge phase as well?

They count as charging for the purpose of the Hurakan rule, not generally. 

[SorryLizard]

2 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

They count as charging for the purpose of the Hurakan rule, not generally. 

Cool, thanks

[Beliman]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

While it's correct that just from the meaning of the term, whether or not you feel negatively about a certain mechanic or interaction in a game is subjective (it's about your personal feelings after all), if we look at the reaction of the player base as a whole we can see that certain types of mechanic are more likely to cause negative experiences in players. That implies that there is something about the mechanics themselves that has the potential to provoke such a response. The negative experience is not just due to the player's preferences (or if it is, those preferences are not random, either). And I think we can point towards common features of NPE mechanics: Reducing interactivity or agency; making players feel like NPCs; preventing interesting things from happening; invalidating decisions... All of these features are distinct, but broadly similar, and I believe they are at the root of those mechanics that provoke the most negativity.

While we are at it, I also want to point out that it is legitimate in some cases to criticize subjective opinion. For example, if an opinion conflicts with the facts. For example, if someone were to say that high charge bonuses cause NPE because they are non-interactive, we can definitely criticize that opinion by pointing out that nearly all armies have the option to take chaff units. If someone claims that a certain mechanic causes a negative experience for a certain reason, if that explanation can be valid or not, and we can disagree about it's validity. However, what we can't really argue with the fact that the person making the claim hada negative experience with the mechanic. And if we see this experience with enough people, even if they don't agree on it's cause, we need to take it seriously.

As you said, Player Experience is one of the most important things in the game (being Negative or Positive). Doesn't matter how balanced, engaging, etc... your game is, if your "players" don't have fun... well, bad news. And it's still a subjective experience.

So, moving on, I want to focus in the first bold part. Mortal wounds, infinite range, etc... all this mechanics feel the core of NPE. That's exactly what Bad Moon has in their kit. But, it is unpredictable and 1D3 mw is not something to worry. So, Bad Moon impact on the table is not as strong as some people thought (note: there were a lot of cries when we saw that rule for the first time).  Waht I want to say is that an NPE mechanic is completely linked to how powerful and impactful is on the table. And that opens another point:

[Mechanics] vs [What you need to have to counter that mechanics].
If that 12" charge turns out to be 24", the whole phase can feel negative for anyone that doesn't have chaff and didn't know that it was possible to do that. As you said, everyone has chaff units and you can play around. 
If you have one unit that can't be charged, but everyone has ranged dmg to kill it without to much problem, is still promoting a Negative Experience? Imo, no, people will not have a Negative Experience and that unit will be shelfed if it doesn't do anything more.
(Note: I'm not talking about Sevireth, it's just an edgy example).

But don't get me wrong, I want AoS to be more melee (we have 40k to play the pew-pew games), but my whole point was not just about one ability, it was about the NPE.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Beliman

[Feii]

16 minutes ago, Beliman said:

As you said, Player Experience is one of the most important things in the game (being Negative or Positive). Doens't matter how balanced, engaging, etc... your game is, if your "players" don't have fun... well, bad news. And it's still a subjective experience.

So, moving on, I want to focus in the first bold part. Mortal wounds, infinite range, etc... all this mechanics feel the core of NPE. That's exactly what Bad Moon has in their kit. But, it is unpredictable and 1D3 mw is not something to worry. So, Bad Moon impact on the table is not as strong as some people thought (note: there were a lot of cries when we saw that rule for the first time).  Waht I want to say is that an NPE mechanic is completely linked to how powerful and impactful is on the table. And that opens another point:

[Mechanics] vs [What you need to have to counter that mechanics].
If that 12" charge turns out to be 24", the whole phase can feel negative for anyone that doesn't have chaff and didn't know that it was possible to do. As you said, everyone has chaff units and you can play around. 
If you have one unit that can't be charged, but everyone has ranged dmg to kill it without to much problem, is still promoting a Negative Experience? Imo, no, people will not have a Negative Experience and that unit will be shelfed if it doesn't do anything more.
(Note: I'm not talking about Sevireth, it's just an edgy example).

But don't get me wrong, I want AoS to be more melee (we have 40k to play the pew-pew games), but my whole point was not just about one ability, it was about the NPE.

not being able to take your expensive centerpiece model because there is a lot of shooting in the game and the terrain has bad rules  might not be NPE per se but it is not healthy for the state of the game/playerbase. 

[Beliman]

4 minutes ago, Feii said:

not being able to take your expensive centerpiece model because there is a lot of shooting in the game and the terrain has bad rules  might not be NPE per se but it is not healthy for the state of the game/playerbase. 

Completely agree!!

[whispersofblood]

19 minutes ago, Feii said:

not being able to take your expensive centerpiece model because there is a lot of shooting in the game and the terrain has bad rules  might not be NPE per se but it is not healthy for the state of the game/playerbase. 

Have any examples? I'm not being passive aggressive I'm actually curious. The only expensive centerpieces that are vulnerable to shooting off the top of my head are Bloodthristers and the KoS. Everything else seems pretty decent against the amount of shooting a person is likely to face. 

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, whispersofblood said:

Have any examples? I'm not being passive aggressive I'm actually curious. The only expensive centerpieces that are vulnerable to shooting off the top of my head are Bloodthristers and the KoS. Everything else seems pretty decent against the amount of shooting a person is likely to face. 

Not that Tzeentch is struggling, but can a LoC stand up to lot of shooting either? I've not shot against Tzeentch so I've never tried it

Obviously BoC big models suffer, but when don't they. When I played the Lumineth mountain cow, it was MW'd off the board pretty quickly against Tzeentch (not shooting but ranged magic). 

Thinking about it, besides Archaon, I think most big characters are vulnerable to ranged Mortal Wounds (from casting and shooting) than shooting on its own.

 

[Feii]

5 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Have any examples? I'm not being passive aggressive I'm actually curious. The only expensive centerpieces that are vulnerable to shooting off the top of my head are Bloodthristers and the KoS. Everything else seems pretty decent against the amount of shooting a person is likely to face. 

NP, I would say mostly it is not only about purely being weak towards shooting but that AND they are not so competitive point wise/rule wise and the heavy shooting is just the final straw that broke the back of those models. It also makes some models/armies better because they have antishooting rules (Glutos, Morathi 3W, IDK)   

Also my personal problem is how often you would love to bring multiple HQs for your SCE amry because the army is synergistic and you want that lantern, you might want a teleport/prayer etc. but during a game you can't always protect them and they die so easily. 

[MitGas]

8 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Not that Tzeentch is struggling, but can a LoC stand up to lot of shooting either? I've not shot against Tzeentch so I've never tried it

Obviously BoC big models suffer, but when don't they. When I played the Lumineth mountain cow, it was MW'd off the board pretty quickly against Tzeentch (not shooting but ranged magic). 

Thinking about it, besides Archaon, I think most big characters are vulnerable to ranged Mortal Wounds (from casting and shooting) than shooting on its own.

 

We got almost nothing that handles being shot at well (that said, we shoot back very well and horrors e.g. are a loss we're willing to take)... plus our melee sucks big time for the most part. We do have a decent enough spell (shield of fate) for survival and the LoC can at lest eat endless spells, which might mitigate some risks... 

However, our best bet is our mobility and to spam Screamers (they do great dmg vs LRL)I believe. And ally in Be'Lakor if they field Teclis. Then it's mostly easy mode and we slaughter these puny aelves.

Edited March 29, 2021 by MitGas

[whispersofblood]

1 minute ago, Enoby said:

Not that Tzeentch is struggling, but can a LoC stand up to lot of shooting either? I've not shot against Tzeentch so I've never tried it

Obviously BoC big models suffer, but when don't they. When I played the Lumineth mountain cow, it was MW'd off the board pretty quickly against Tzeentch (not shooting but ranged magic). 

Thinking about it, besides Archaon, I think most big characters are vulnerable to ranged Mortal Wounds (from casting and shooting) than shooting on its own.

 

Yeah primarily I was thinking Shooting. Careful what you say about flamers, might summon @MitGas! 😉

1 minute ago, Feii said:

NP, I would say mostly it is not only about purely being weak towards shooting but that AND they are not so competitive point wise/rule wise and the heavy shooting is just the final straw that broke the back of those models. It also makes some models/armies better because they have antishooting rules (Glutos, Morathi 3W, IDK)   

Also my personal problem is how often you would love to bring multiple HQs for your SCE amry because the army is synergistic and you want that lantern, you might want a teleport/prayer etc. but during a game you can't always protect them and they die so easily. 

Those are fair points, I think you are touching on some things I've said in the Aos3 convo as well.

Most armies can't support more than 3 heroes before they so heavily impact drops that you can get abused, and also their benefits are maginal generally 

My solution for monsters that that they can't bracket more than once a player turn, then you mod the brackets to match how survival and output for the narrative. At the moment the Monster Keyword is mostly a negative I'd like to see it get some characteristics that make it unique. Then you can give models rules which interact with the Monster Keyword.

[AaronWilson]

The whole "NPE" discussion is a real tricky one as it's hugely subjective as it's ultimately down to the army you're playing and when people discuss it more often involves someone personal experience they feel aggravated at rather then a holistic view of the game. 

[MitGas]

53 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Yeah primarily I was thinking Shooting. Careful what you say about flamers, might summon @MitGas! 😉

Don‘t worry, there are so many Aelves in here, I‘d get beaten up like that poor horror in the latest Neverchosen! 

 

PS: after our flamer discussion, I ran a list with a fatemaster near them (and Enlightened). I agree, it‘s pretty damn broken... (that said, the Enlightened really outperformed the flamers, basically killing a mega-gargant in a single turn)... but in my defense, I‘m all for change. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Kadeton]

14 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

The whole "NPE" discussion is a real tricky one as it's hugely subjective as it's ultimately down to the army you're playing and when people discuss it more often involves someone personal experience they feel aggravated at rather then a holistic view of the game. 

"Balance" is also hugely subjective and is ultimately down to personal experience.

An understanding of both balance problems and negative experiences is approached by looking at the breadth and consistency of complaints. It's not about any one person's opinion, but to what degree players share a common opinion.

[AaronWilson]

6 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

"Balance" is also hugely subjective and is ultimately down to personal experience.

An understanding of both balance problems and negative experiences is approached by looking at the breadth and consistency of complaints. It's not about any one person's opinion, but to what degree players share a common opinion.

Yes I absolutely agree, it's a very difficult thing to discuss without bias taking a role in it. 

[John Edwards]

12 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

But acting like there isn't huge power in the ability to pile out to 2.9" and limit pile-in to 1" at the same time is just crazy. 

Can you explain how the Hurakan Spirit of the Wind does this? I've read the warscroll and I don't understand.

Into the Gale will reduce pile-in to 1". Got it.

Spirit of the Wind allows for a normal move (can retreat, can't run) after shooting. As this is a normal move, doesn't that mean I have to finish the move >3" away? While I can charge again in the same turn, perhaps repositioning to reduce the number of attacks I receive, I don't see how these rules in combination with the core rules allow a  2.9" pile out, thereby locking a unit in some sort of slow-motion pile-in chase across the board.

[John Edwards]

2 minutes ago, John Edwards said:

Can you explain how the Hurakan Spirit of the Wind does this? I've read the warscroll and I don't understand.

Into the Gale will reduce pile-in to 1". Got it.

Spirit of the Wind allows for a normal move (can retreat, can't run) after shooting. As this is a normal move, doesn't that mean I have to finish the move >3" away? While I can charge again in the same turn, perhaps repositioning to reduce the number of attacks I receive, I don't see how these rules in combination with the core rules allow a  2.9" pile out, thereby locking a unit in some sort of slow-motion pile-in chase across the board.

Ignore me

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/03/23/find-out-what-makes-the-hurakan-faster-than-a-speeding-arrow/

I understand now.

[yukishiro1]

Well, FEC is the obvious example of an army that needs CP to function. FEC is completely built around the double fight CA (which is bad design itself, but it is what it is right now), without it the army doesn't work. Of course FEC gets dumpstered by LRL anyway, so Total Eclipse itself is, ironically, basically just a win more ability itself vs FEC (as it is generally, it's not something LRL actually need). 

I mean you can get one free fight per turn (which would bypass Total Eclipse, though it wouldn't bypass the new spell that just shuts off CAs entirely) if you forgo a suballegiance. But having to give up a suballegiance to have a chance is surely itself another good example of NPE. 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Marcvs]

10 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

As an aside, what armies "need" CP to function? My recollection of most factions would say that most command abilities are win more abilities, and most factions play off their allegiance abilities which are for the most part not interactive.

If by armies you mean allegiances: all those who are based around medium/big blocks of troops but have no means to make them immune to battleshock other than inspiring presence.

If by armies you mean lists: all those who rely on specific command abilities for their main tricks (a gav bomb, living city shooting + moving + charging, khailebron teleporting...)

[Ganigumo]

12 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

As an aside, what armies "need" CP to function? My recollection of most factions would say that most command abilities are win more abilities, and most factions play off their allegiance abilities which are for the most part not interactive.

Command abilities are often necessary for armies to even function. Ironjawz without mighty destroyers is actually very slow and can't engage, Gitz loses 50%+ of their army to battleshock, Gutbusters also loses lots of 4 wound models to battleshock, BoC loses to battleshock, Fec needs the double fight to put out enough damage, etc... a few of these books do have good CP generation, but not all of them.

Literally the only books that use CAs as "win more" are the top tier overtuned books, the number of books that fall apart without them outnumbers the books that could function without them.

6 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

The whole "NPE" discussion is a real tricky one as it's hugely subjective as it's ultimately down to the army you're playing and when people discuss it more often involves someone personal experience they feel aggravated at rather then a holistic view of the game. 

NPE is largely subjective, but for the most part it's when rules go from "You need to approach this problem differently and change up your tactics" to "There is no answer for this in your battletome", or "You don't get to play in this phase anymore" or "You don't get to play your army anymore because my rules shut you down". There seems to be vast ignorance of how hard lumineth can shut down many of the weaker armies, some of which are entirely reliant on stuff like +1 casters casting a spell on a 7 or 8, or a terrain piece. One of the big reasons lumineth is getting singled out is because they are strong in EVERY PHASE, KO and Tzeentch are strong, with absurd shooting phases, and better in the meta than lumineth, but if you play around their strength and pin them down in the combat phase you stand a chance of winning.

 

WH weekly was talking about good design in their most recent show and they touched on high elves/Lumineth. GW tends to do top down design, where they start with a concept then write rules to fit that concept. Throughout the history of high elves across multiple writers and editions they have always remained strong (although not always top tier/broken) with complex powerful rules. This is because part of the very concept of high elves is that they're better than you. So when an opponent is on the backfoot from deployment to the end of game that's fitting to the Lumineth concept, and when Lumineth are better than an army in every phase (like they actually are for a bunch of low tier armies) that's also true to their concept and narrative.

BR:Teclis narrative spoiler:

Spoiler

This is also why in the narrative of broken realms Teclis the Lumineth defeat basically the entirety of Grand Allegiance:Death single handedly and without any significant losses, they barely break a sweat. This fits the Lumineth concept, but is a slap in the face to not only Death (who a lot of people were expecting to lose anyways) but also the forces of Order/Chaos, since this act makes them all look worse in comparison. The forces of the Everchosen struggled with katakros, but the lumineth took them out with ease.

So the true issue here is that part of the very concept of Lumineth/high elves is flawed and not conducive to a positive play experience, even going so far as to encourage NPE since that's what fighting against high elves/Lumineth should actually be like.

[SorryLizard]

10 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

They count as charging for the purpose of the Hurakan rule, not generally. 

Sorry to bring this up again but I'm hearing conflicting things on this. Do we have the actual wording of the battalion ability?

[kahadin]

55 minutes ago, SorryLizard said:

Sorry to bring this up again but I'm hearing conflicting things on this. Do we have the actual wording of the battalion ability?

I just checked Ash's video he read it and said they always count as having made a charge move.

https://youtu.be/8yrXi310Ops?t=1238

Link should be at the right time

[yukishiro1]

Yeah, according to that wording, they count as charging, period, which means every eligible unit can activate and move 6" in any direction in both yours and your opponents' combat phase, even if it isn't in combat. This looks like another case of either incredibly bad design (less likely, I have difficulty believing even GW could have actually intended this, even for a faction like LRL) or really sloppy proofreading (more likely). 

The little explanatory blurb also makes it sound like they didn't intend it, that it was just meant to boost the range on the pile-in when you're already in combat anyway, not make you eligible to do it even if you aren't in combat.

Edited March 29, 2021 by yukishiro1

[Aelfric]

25 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Yeah, according to that wording, they count as charging, period, which means every eligible unit can activate and move 6" in any direction in both yours and your opponents' combat phase, even if it isn't in combat. This looks like another case of either incredibly bad design (less likely, I have difficulty believing even GW could have actually intended this, even for a faction like LRL) or really sloppy proofreading (more likely). 

The little explanatory blurb also makes it sound like they didn't intend it, that it was just meant to boost the range on the pile-in when you're already in combat anyway, not make you eligible to do it even if you aren't in combat.

The core rules say you can only pick a unit to fight if it is within 3" of an enemy unit or made a charge move that turn.   Pile in only occurs when a unit is picked to fight.  Although the Windrunners count as having charged, this will not allow them to pile in unless they have actually made a charge move.  Therefore, it will only come into play if they are within 3" of an enemy unit and haven't charged.