Getting Priced Out

[Sleboda]

41 minutes ago, Overread said:

Basically yes shareholders are important, but at the same time GW is a miniature model company, if they don't serve that market their profits go down and their shareholder value goes down.

Not to start a fuss, but ... sorta.

"if they don't serve that market their profits go down and their shareholder value goes down."

Yes but.

They don't have to serve "that" market. They have to serve "a" market.

Once you become a public company, your product is the price of your shares. If GW could take their $140 shares to $200 by making great models, they should. If they could take it to $250 by converting over to cheeseburgers, they should.

 

What they sell is completely irrelevant. It's investor confidence that matters.

Of course they would lose all gamers by shifting to cheeseburgers, but if they gained enough burger lovers to offset those customer losses and then some, that's what they should, and would, do.

 

Yes, in a perfect world they would go to $250 selling models, and that's what I want. I'm just not fooling myself. When GW went public, right about when I started working there, their business fundamentally changed from producing games and models to producing shareholder value though what they sell, which still happens to be games and models.

If movies start making more money than toys, the movies will drive the narrative, including which toys are made.

We've seen this with Marvel. Marvel was darn near bankrupt. They sold off spider man to Sony, among other things. It's why the marvel movies couldn't use him for the early movies. Even Marvel itself didn't have the rights to him!

Now the comic storylines are beholden to the movies. If GW movies  with, for instance, female Space Marines, make billions, I guarantee you'll see female marines on the table too.

 

TLDR

Follow the money.

[chord]

I'm out of the hobby in terms of new purchases, not because I can't afford it but due to the fact I'm tired of my "investment" changing (and partially covid of course).

I buy a guitar and it remains a guitar for the life of it.  

I buy a model and the rules change whenever GW feels like.  

If we didn't see the meta change so frequently (I know house rules, blah blah, which only works if you have non-random ppl to play with which not everyone has) and my models didn't suddenly get better or worse that would be one thing but its not.

Golf clubs, guitars, etc they are all static.   Wargaming models and their corresponding rules are not.  If GW could control their power creep then I think maybe the higher prices would less hard to swallow

 

[Sleboda]

@chord Your models don't get better or worse when rules change, just like your guitars don't get better or worse when the new Metallica song hits #1 or is replaced at the top by the new Slayer song.

The guitar and the model stay the same. What you choose to play with either is up to you, not up to what is popular.

Or, in your terms, the model remains the model for the life of it.

There are new models that fill the spot in the line for old models, just as there are advancements in pickups of even whole guitars that fill the spot in Fender's or D'addario's lines.

 

Products advance and replace old ones in their product lines, but the older versions don't just go poof.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Sleboda

[Beastmaster]

21 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

 

They don't have to serve "that" market. They have to serve "a" market.

Not sure it’s so simple to just change direction. GW worked for 45 years in the miniature game market to become the giant in that little niche that they now are. That’s where they have a name, that’s what they’re known for.  I don’t see them become a major player in a completely different niche (that’s already filled by others, with actually much more money to toss around) just by choosing so and throwing some money. Just not how the world works imo.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Beastmaster

[Sleboda]

3 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

Not sure it’s so simple to just change direction.

Oh, I know. I'm not saying (and didn't say) it's simple. I'm just addressing the uncomfortable truth that since GW went public, their focus shifted from the top priority being the physical models to it being the share price increase via the models, and if another path increased the share price instead of the models doing it, that's what they would do.

 

It seems pretty natural to leverage their IPs to sell media, and to let media success drive the models. That's why I mentioned the Marvel example.

We're all nerds, like comic nerds. Ask around. Ask how many Iron Man fans have read a comic.  If only Iron Man comic fans bought movie tickets, there would be no Marvel Cinematic Universe. The movies appealed to a muuuuuuuch larger audience than the comics. Those movies are why Marvel still exists at all, and therefore why they still make comics.

If GW movies were successful, it would be because they appealed to waaaay more people than the games do. That would then drive the lore and the models.  GW would become a media company with games and models (that follow the movie content) as a small part of their much larger empire.

 

Not cheeseburgers, I know, but still a shift from toys to movies.

[Greybeard86]

13 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

@chord Your models don't get better or worse when rules change, just like your guitars don't get better or worse when the new Metallica song hits #1 or is replaced at the top by the new Slayer song.

Here I will disagree. Quite frankly, the model has a value that includes the physical object, and GW's support, which also means rules.

Now, the importance of either depends on how you use the model; but denying that for a significant fraction of the people rules matter is silly, IMO.

Of course, GW uses the "fluff" and "rules" ALSO as a way to increase "value", as they are well aware of this. If I were a tourney player I would most likely 3d print or try to get the cheapest possible miniatures no matter what; or maybe I would just quite the game. The reason being the massive meta shifts we are constantly seeing.

32 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Once you become a public company, your product is the price of your shares.

Pretty much. I would love to have an insight on how things changed at GW when they went public, and on the transition from small company of "geeks" to market dominating corporation.

[Sleboda]

11 minutes ago, Greybeard86 said:

Here I will disagree. Quite frankly, the model has a value that includes the physical object, and GW's support, which also means rules.

Now, the importance of either depends on how you use the model; but denying that for a significant fraction of the people rules matter is silly, IMO.

I understand your disagreement, but:

 

- There are plenty of folks who buy models just for the model. Heck, I have a ton of models from GW that I'll never use in a game but bought because they are awesome looking and I wanted to paint them. I mean, heck, I plunked down the cash for Archaon and I am pretty sure I'll never put him on the table.

- My comparison to guitars is that the model, the physical model, does not (factually!) change when its rules do, just as an ESP guitar a fan buys because George Lynch plays ESP does not change if George switches to Gibson, not does it change when popular music moves on to other manufacturers or guitar models.  Sure, there's a "hey, I play what he plays" factor, but that's not inherently a part of the instrument just as the rules are not instantly part of the actual, physical model.

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Sleboda

[Greybeard86]

2 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I understand your disagreement, but:

 

- There are plenty of folks who buy models just for the model. Heck, I have a ton of models from GW that I'll never use in a game but bought because they are awesome looking and I wanted to paint them.

Right, but that's you. The other poster explicitely told you he does care about the rules and the IG performance of the model. I can understand you and I often buy what I'd like to paint. But I also recognize that for some the IG performance matters a lot and that it is not unreasonable for them to take that into account.

2 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

the rules are not instantly part of the actual, physical model.

They are in the sense described above.

[El Syf]

I was thinking about how reasonable GW prices seem nowadays and then I remebered I'm in my 30's now and have more money to blow on plastic crack than when I was 13.

Back in the day when some character models such as the old school chaos space marine lord (in weight reassuring METAL) went up from £9.00 to £11.00 it was a crime against humanity; but I didn't bat an eyelid on spending £17.50 on the Mortisan Boneshaper which is not in reassuring METAL and similar size wise.

[Rodiger]

Personally for me the real issue is that compared to 2 years ago, the same models are considerably more expensive now. I haven't seen an increase in quality from 2 years ago to warrent that price increase and at the same time there has been record profits. 

Other hobbies don't change that. 

A model/game that I thought was ok priced 2 years ago looks nothing more than a rip off now because I remember it's previous price.

GW may have a good reason for price increases, I don't know what that is though and I feel just ripped off. I could purchase anything I wanted every week, however I choose not to.

I suppose a lot of this debate is our own personal opinions in what is worth a certain amount of money. For instance I also play guitar and my regular expenditure would be strings. I buy expensive strings because I've tried many brands and I believe the best ones are actually the most expensive, if they went through a period of quick price rises however I may change the brand if I no longer thought they were worth the new higher price for the same item.  Same for this. 

I also play computer games, I've won the treble on Champ Manager with Darlington. I've built amazing cities on Sim City, and I've bred competitive Pokemon, none of that is a physical thing, but it was much more memorable than painting a tactical squad of Space Marines that are now in a box in a cupboard. 

 

[Kramer]

8 hours ago, Saxon said:

The lore of 40k has more or less been consistent in its xenophobia from the start. It's tiresome that all of a sudden its bad to show good guys as problematically xenophobic. Hence my reference to statues. Fine until recently and now they're offensive. Please. 

A lot of statues weren’t fine until recently. They were wrong all the time but people didn’t know. Or phrased differently they were accepted in previously held morality by society.

and in the same manner we do things as a society now, that will be viewed as wrong later.  

morality changes, that’s natural. 
removing statues instead of using them to teach why their morality is now viewed as wrong is not the best solution imo. It creates a wrong sense that things and people are right and wrong. That it’s fully black or white. that doesn’t work. Also dismissively calling one side of the argument something doesn’t help either. 

[Kramer]

3 hours ago, Sleboda said:

 Your models don't get better or worse when rules change, just like your guitars don't get better or worse when the new Metallica song hits #1 or is replaced at the top by the new Slayer song.

It does gain more value I would argue. 
If I want to play 2K games because that’s the norm. And suddenly a unit of mine  halves in points, I need more of them. 
so surely that’s a change. 

Just realised, ebay is an even beter indicator. The moment my model loses rules, the price I can sell it for. 
 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Kramer

[JackStreicher]

59 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Just realised, ebay is an even beter indicator. The moment my model loses rules, the price I can sell it for. 

Absolutely, just look at the amount of aggressors eBay is currently drowning in 🤣

[Kramer]

7 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Absolutely, just look at the amount of aggressors eBay is currently drowning in 🤣

Ehh is that the aos equivalent of castigators when the soul wars box was released? 😅

[JackStreicher]

28 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Ehh is that the aos equivalent of castigators when the soul wars box was released? 😅

No, they used to be great, then the new Codex dropped 🤣

[EccentricCircle]

I now kind of want to see a Games Workshop branded burger franchise...

"I'll have the double Archaon with Heresy Cheese please, and a side of Terminator Fries!"

[Grimrock]

20 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

I now kind of want to see a Games Workshop branded burger franchise...

"I'll have the double Archaon with Heresy Cheese please, and a side of Terminator Fries!"

"Sorry, to get the heresy cheese you need to buy the wrath of the everchosen condiment set. Also we've found the terminator fries are too popular in most meal orders so we've cut the number of fries per order in half. We have released a new primaris apple pie though if you'd like to pay extra to add it to your combo"

Edited October 22, 2020 by Grimrock

[Saxon]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

A lot of statues weren’t fine until recently. They were wrong all the time but people didn’t know. Or phrased differently they were accepted in previously held morality by society.

and in the same manner we do things as a society now, that will be viewed as wrong later.  

morality changes, that’s natural. 
removing statues instead of using them to teach why their morality is now viewed as wrong is not the best solution imo. It creates a wrong sense that things and people are right and wrong. That it’s fully black or white. that doesn’t work. Also dismissively calling one side of the argument something doesn’t help either. 

Morals do change you are right and I completely agree that removing statues is wrong. I used this example because funnily enough the same people upset at the portrayal of the imperium are the same people upset because Winston Churchill was a war mongers racist. 

It greatly concerns me that the strong lore the game has does come under criticism for darker elements. I dont want games where space marines try and talk it out with Abbadon before invading the planet or that chaos is just misunderstood. AOS needs to develop strong lore to engage people in the game for the long term also. 

its hard not to dismiss this side of the argument when its so poorly informed and reactionary. 

[Kramer]

55 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

No, they used to be great, then the new Codex dropped 🤣

Nope that never happened to castigators. 🤐

[Kramer]

35 minutes ago, Saxon said:

chaos is just misunderstood. AOS needs to develop strong lore to engage people in the game for the long term also. 

Oh that’s where we 180 degrees disagree. 
it’s so much better in AoS. Yes most chaos warshippers at the low level are forced into the service of the dark gods because it’s the only way to survive. 
It’s a recurring theme in plenty of books. It’s so much better than good vs evil. 
just like those stormcast, exact hammers of sigmar, are all a bit dark. They all overdo it. 

I want the grey. I want the witch hunter who is a cold blooded devil who burns villages of innocents but in the next saved a little dracoline from a tree for its owner. 
just good vs evil is boring. 

having read most of the aos books release last three years, the lore is already very strong. But it will always feel thin compared to not only the older brother. But also 40k gets more attention. So aos will never catch up. but if you forget the comparison the narrative is so good. 

every good guy is a little bad, and plenty of bad guys have sides you can identify with. And of course depending on the story there is always room for the more simple good vs evil 

[Saxon]

7 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Oh that’s where we 180 degrees disagree. 
it’s so much better in AoS. Yes most chaos warshippers at the low level are forced into the service of the dark gods because it’s the only way to survive. 
It’s a recurring theme in plenty of books. It’s so much better than good vs evil. 
just like those stormcast, exact hammers of sigmar, are all a bit dark. They all overdo it. 

I want the grey. I want the witch hunter who is a cold blooded devil who burns villages of innocents but in the next saved a little dracoline from a tree for its owner. 
just good vs evil is boring. 

having read most of the aos books release last three years, the lore is already very strong. But it will always feel thin compared to not only the older brother. But also 40k gets more attention. So aos will never catch up. but if you forget the comparison the narrative is so good. 

every good guy is a little bad, and plenty of bad guys have sides you can identify with. And of course depending on the story there is always room for the more simple good vs evil 

Oh of course 40k dominates the lore. It's been around longer so of course.

Personal preference but I have had a hard time getting into the AOS lore because I was such a huge fan of the old world lore and also because I cant get past my dislike for stormcast haha. 

[Saxon]

55 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

"Sorry, to get the heresy cheese you need to buy the wrath of the everchosen condiment set. Also we've found the terminator fries are too popular in most meal orders so we've cut the number of fries per order in half. We have released a new primaris apple pie though if you'd like to pay extra to add it to your combo"

Hahaha nailed GWs business model there!

[Kramer]

35 minutes ago, Saxon said:

Oh of course 40k dominates the lore. It's been around longer so of course.

Personal preference but I have had a hard time getting into the AOS lore because I was such a huge fan of the old world lore and also because I cant get past my dislike for stormcast haha. 

Had the same thing. But just start reading. They fell into place for me. 
there’s even a short story about a stormcast who falls in love with a fellow warrior, but gets obsessed with something. Saying more would be spoilers. It’s called hourglass something I think. Which humanised stormcast to the point chaos corruption seems absolutely feasible. 

or the eight lamentations books are very good to get into it as well. Reynolds is a great writer regardless of the setting imo. 

[Sleboda]

On 10/22/2020 at 10:00 AM, Greybeard86 said:

Quote

the rules are not instantly part of the actual, physical model.

They are in the sense described above.

I'm not trying to go back and forth over this, but it's important to the point:

There's no "sense" about it. Literally, the rules *cannot* be part of the physical model, and thus changes to the rules *cannot* change the models. To put it another way-

You buy a box of Mortek Guard. You open it. Inside you find 34 strips of paper with rules written on them, but no plastic. Can you build the unit of ten models?

Now you buy an old box of Empire Hangunners. You open it. Inside you find plastic and metal parts, but no rules. Can you build the unit of ten models?

No matter what ever happens for the rest of time, you will have 10 handgunners and zero Guard.

Even if you find 9 versions of handgunner rules for Warhammer over 20 years of buying old army books, White Dwarf magazines, and digital downloads, the physical models will never, ever change. It is interesting to note that the models can be used, with no physical alteration, in multiple GW games and even in games by other companies or those of you own invention. Heck, use them as wedding cake toppers if you want!

Point is, rules changes do not - cannot - change the physical models.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Sleboda
Booze-fueled typos.

[Joseph Mackay]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

I'm not trying to go back and forth over this, but it's important to the point:

There's no "sense" about it. Literally, the rules *cannot* be part of the physical model, and thus changes to the rules *cannot* charge the models. To put it another way-

You buy a box of Mortek Guard. You open it. Inside you find 34 strips of paper with rules written on them, but no plastic. Can you build the unit of ten models?

Now you buy an old box of Empire Hangunners. You open it. Inside you find plastic and metal parts, but no rules. Can you build the unit of ten models?

No matter what ever happens for the rest of time, you will have 10 handgun need and zero Guard.

Even if you find 9 versions of handgunner rules for Warhammer over 20 years of buying old army books, White Dwarf magazines, and digital downloads, the physical models will never, ever change. It is interesting to note that the models can be used, with no physical alteration, in multiple GW games and even in games by other companies or those of you own invention. Heck, use them as wedding cake toppers if you want!

Point is, rules changes do not - cannot - change the physical models.

The thing is though, that a units rules are at least partially factored into the price gw charge, and so you can’t really just ignore the rules when talking about pricing.

example, ‘elite’ units. Gw expects to sell less of them vs a Battleline* unit, and so they charge more for the elite unit so that they effectively make the same profit regardless of how many individual boxes are sold

*this doesn’t apply to fantasy units that were elite but are now Battleline in AoS (ie Witch Aelves, Ironbreakers etc) because they don’t adjust prices down (Magmadroth being an extremely rare situation)