Aos 2 - Lumineth Realm-Lords Discussion

[Tiberius501]

Yeah 100% honeycomb them, and as many ranks deep as you can to keep within the 3” range but also making the line small enough to fit around cover and against an enemy unit, imo. And I’d chuck the High Warden in the front and in the centre so he can be in range with his sword and you can take dudes off either side of him. And I’d do units of 20 Wardens, 10 of everything else, but horses seem hard to judge for me atm, they also seem really good at 5 man too, possibly better at 5 man so you don’t struggle to get them all in to melee range.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Tiberius501

[Icegoat]

Has anyones noticed how big these aelfs are 8 foot if we are going by them next to the freeguild or the freeguild models are now so undersized as to make them hobbits. Either way this aelves are big.

[Aloth_Corfiser]

Ah the "Scale Creep" thing again 🙄
The 32mm Bases are also a bit higher than the 25mm Bases .....
Even though - a common Fantasy Trope is: (A)Elves are taller than men.

[Tiger]

1 hour ago, Aloth_Corfiser said:

Even though - a common Fantasy Trope is: (A)Elves are taller than men.

How else could we ever look down on them?

[Lenwe Seregon]

Hi guys

Planning ahead..whats going to be best picks or hammers for the stoneguard?

[Icegoat]

2 hours ago, Aloth_Corfiser said:

Ah the "Scale Creep" thing again 🙄
The 32mm Bases are also a bit higher than the 25mm Bases .....
Even though - a common Fantasy Trope is: (A)Elves are taller than men.

Aelves are taller sure but twice as wide and 2 foot height difference I've never seen before. I mean they are almost as tall as stormcast just not as chonky. 

[Azamar]

4 hours ago, Icegoat said:

Has anyones noticed how big these aelfs are 8 foot if we are going by them next to the freeguild or the freeguild models are now so undersized as to make them hobbits. Either way this aelves are big.

Not especially.  There’s been a bit of scale creep since the older high elves, but they’re a comparable size to currently available COS aelves, just with a wider base filled by their stance

[LuminethMage]

2 hours ago, Lenwe Seregon said:

Hi guys

Planning ahead..whats going to be best picks or hammers for the stoneguard?

Depends on what saves your opponent has, but in most cases likely the picks. 

[ArchaicArc]

Hey all, so I’m gearing towards a core troops army, led by cathallars and perhaps Eltharion from time to time.

My question would be how would you guys go about making Syar or Ilithia effective with these forces?

It doesn’t need to be ultre-competitive as I generally don’t like rocking min/max style armies, but I also haven’t actually played the game yet due to the virus.

 

Just what would be the best strategies and combinations to get the most out of these factions without becoming a negative experience for my opponent.

 

Thanks!

[TeclisGod]

2 hours ago, ArchaicArc said:

Hey all, so I’m gearing towards a core troops army, led by cathallars and perhaps Eltharion from time to time.

My question would be how would you guys go about making Syar or Ilithia effective with these forces?

It doesn’t need to be ultre-competitive as I generally don’t like rocking min/max style armies, but I also haven’t actually played the game yet due to the virus.

 

Just what would be the best strategies and combinations to get the most out of these factions without becoming a negative experience for my opponent.

 

Thanks!

I guess just run 3-4 units of both wardens and sentinels. The more and bigger units the better if u wanna use Cathallar. Should be fun to see and different for Lumineth.

[Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce]

9 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

Yeah 100% honeycomb them, and as many ranks deep as you can to keep within the 3” range but also making the line small enough to fit around cover and against an enemy unit, imo. And I’d chuck the High Warden in the front and in the centre so he can be in range with his sword and you can take dudes off either side of him. And I’d do units of 20 Wardens, 10 of everything else, but horses seem hard to judge for me atm, they also seem really good at 5 man too, possibly better at 5 man so you don’t struggle to get them all in to melee range.

Cool, so they can be ~1 inch wider than the opponent on both ends of the unit and still be in range for most models to attack.

About putting high warden front and center, are there precision strikes In combat or anything to worry about? Sniping him out in other phases?

He’s more valuable as a wizard right? Could he be back a couple ranks and still cast or does that interfere with line of sight?

I am guessing you can’t remove front rank models, so if you don’t put him front and center he would have to be removed as an earlier casualty if his back or middle rank is depleted?

Edited July 9, 2020 by Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce
Clarification of question

[Karang029]

So I'm debating on running a 10 or 15 man squad of Dawnriders to get Speed of Hysh and move up the board 28" and get a solid turn 1 charge off. Has anyone else tried this and how well it works?

[LuminethMage]

21 minutes ago, Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce said:

Cool, so they can be ~1 inch wider than the opponent on both ends of the unit and still be in range for most models to attack.

About putting high warden front and center, are there precision strikes In combat or anything to worry about? Sniping him out in other phases?

He’s more valuable as a wizard right? Could he be back a couple ranks and still cast or does that interfere with line of sight?

I am guessing you can’t remove front rank models, so if you don’t put him front and center he would have to be removed as an earlier casualty if his back or middle rank is depleted?

Sniping is a possibility, but usually those abilities won't depend on where you put a model within a unit, and aren't that common in the first place. It usually will say something like "pick one model". Entomb, the spell our Stonemage has, is a good example for such an ability. Visibility doesn't matter for models within the same unit (you count them as being transparent). Center is important in case you want to keep him as a caster and keep everything as a shining company. Because you'll have to pick models from the sides. 

@ArchaicArc It's probably a bit early to say much about tactics. Most of us won't have played a lot with them already. But, both Syar and Iliatha will do well with your Vanari and Cathallar. Iliatha's abilities are all about Vanari units, so you can focus your army on those. Syar is really flexible, as having 2 Aetherquartz will be great for any unit besides Eltharion (if he doesn't get FAQ'ed to being a a Wizard), and works really well with your Cathallar to punt your negative energy to opponents. There is also good synergy there with Eltharion's Command ability if you use Syar, because he can provide a 10 bravery bubble.

At first, I wouldn't care too much about negative playing experiences. Everyone is different, for some people something is an interesting challenge, for others it's BS and not fun. Especially at the start when some new abilities can surprise people and they haven't had time to adapt. Basically, all of the Carthallar abilities and several of the Lumineth spells could be a NPE for your opponent. Play some games, learn how the army works, enjoy yourself. If you then see that your friends don't enjoy playing against you, or you are just winning all the time by using one or a few specific abilities, you can avoid those.

[John Edwards]

3 hours ago, Karang029 said:

So I'm debating on running a 10 or 15 man squad of Dawnriders to get Speed of Hysh and move up the board 28" and get a solid turn 1 charge off. Has anyone else tried this and how well it works?

I'm planning on the same with a unit of 10. I'm doubtful I could get 15 all into combat.

[Acid_Nine]

23 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

Yeah 100% honeycomb them, and as many ranks deep as you can to keep within the 3” range but also making the line small enough to fit around cover and against an enemy unit, imo. And I’d chuck the High Warden in the front and in the centre so he can be in range with his sword and you can take dudes off either side of him. And I’d do units of 20 Wardens, 10 of everything else, but horses seem hard to judge for me atm, they also seem really good at 5 man too, possibly better at 5 man so you don’t struggle to get them all in to melee range.

Yea, honey combing is basically the way to play wardens. I think having the wardens out front would be a good idea, but it adds more “surface area” for the enemy to swarm around. I played around with a unit of 10 versus 20 skeletons, and having the warden out front just provides an extra little circle for the enemy to swarm around. Plus, I do not know how good his sword is, as it doesn’t have the mortal wounding thing. I think keeping him out front would be good for removing models so you don’t “accidentally” remove him from the squad like you would if he is in the back.

 

Also, I warn against playing cav in squads larger than 10. I play morrsarr in units of 9 and it can be a pain to get everyone in.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Acid_Nine

[John Edwards]

I'm interested in the thinking around unit sizes of 20 for wardens. I assume this is to maintain Shining Company.

I was actually thinking of running two units of 10 that would normally move around the board together much like a single unit. That way you gain another wizard to help powerup twin-stones and an extra one off 1d3 mortal wounds.

Given the 3" range I can deploy them like this, using Lightning Reactions to have them attack together:

ooooo    ooooo
 ooooo    ooooo

Or like this, with the front unit potentially Ethereal while the rear is out of range of most opponents. Requires that someone charges me of course:

o o o o o o o o o o

    oooooooooo

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by John Edwards
Posted before I was ready! Damn you CTRL+RETURN.

[Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce]

22 minutes ago, John Edwards said:

I'm interested in the thinking around unit sizes of 20 for wardens. I assume this is to maintain Shining Company.

I was actually thinking of running two units of 10 that would normally move around the board together much like a single unit. That way you gain another wizard to help powerup twin-stones and an extra one off 1d3 mortal wounds.

Given the 3" range I can deploy them like this, using Lightning Reactions to have them attack together:

ooooo    ooooo
 ooooo    ooooo

Or like this, with the front unit potentially Ethereal while the rear is out of range of most opponents. Requires that someone charges me of course:

o o o o o o o o o o

    oooooooooo

 

You lose shining company on both units in the second example no?

The first is very interesting. I haven’t played since warhammer fantasy. There used to be diminishing returns having too many casters (running out of dice) is that not the case anymore?

And if we run smaller units, at what point do they lose combat effectiveness and how easy is it to take the wounds to get them there. How many guys can you lose from the 10 while still being a threat, and how easy will it be for the opponent to get them to that point? 
 

In Fantasy I used to take an extra ~15-20% in a unit assuming they would be lost before I reached combat. So if I need 10 dragon princes in combat, id take 12 to start accounting for probable losses.
 

Is there no such considerations beyond needing 5 wardens and sentinels or 3 daw riders to cast?

 

[John Edwards]

1 minute ago, Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce said:

You lose shining company on both units in the second example no?

Yes. I imagined that may be useful for a situation where I have lost shining company anyway, e.g. I have had the units run to occupy an objective.

Edited July 9, 2020 by John Edwards

[John Edwards]

3 minutes ago, Prince Tûrion Rilyalöce said:

The first is very interesting. I haven’t played since warhammer fantasy. There used to be diminishing returns having too many casters (running out of dice) is that not the case anymore?

No. Every wizard can cast based on the number of casting attempts on their warscroll. No shared dice pool.

In matched play, you can only attempt to cast a particular spell once per hero phase unless explicitly stated otherwise, as is the case for Power of Hysh.

[LuminethMage]

10 vs 20 as Wardens, we’ll likely not really know what’s better before there is more actual testing. Probably also depends on the rest of your army. There is a lot to consider: 

- your general strategy ( can you cover Teclis for example)

- how many objectives there are, and other units you have

- 20 being risky with only 6/5 bravery vs. that’s the point with Cathallar shenanigans 

- 3 inch on 20 will give you a lot of attacks and potential for mortal wounds vs anyway you can activate 2 troops in a row

- High Wardens have no pikes

- having more Wizards at the start of the game vs likely losing them earlier (but making model snipping abilities less threatening). Do you even need more Wizards?

- Having more opportunities to roll for Power of Hysh vs convenience/power of stacking bonuses on one unit (you can only make one unit ethereal, speedy etc. per turn)

- Two units together will give you modifier if they are part of the Battalion as long as you keep them together.

- Opponent etc. 

I think it’s tough to generally say one is better all the time without testing this. It might also end up being a personal preferences issue. 

[Koradrel of Chrace]

I think another thing to consider is going to be the changes in the upcoming GHB.  The new matched play scenarios are also going to shake things up a bit.

[OkayestDM]

Got my color scheme for my LRLs.

[Lucur]

Considering 10 vs 20 wardens i'd assume 20 is better as long as you have bravery covered. Even more so for sentinels, as the unit leader doesn't shoot. If you're lacking cathallars or have too few CP (or have them planned otherwise) or just want the cheapest battleline, pick 10.

Ofc i haven't played yet and this is purely theoretical, but as it pretty much fits for many armies, i'd run with it ^^

[woolf]

for wardens the battalion + lightning reactions + shining company all seems to support small 10man units, more manouverable and with more wizards. eg OBR catapults will snipe out wizards and with no healing you lose significant output from not having power of hysh. probably in most turns the wizards will just power up themselves anyways so I don't think you can have too many of them. also flexibility in allowing to break shining formation for some while keeping it for others seems good. for archers I'd think larger units make more sense apart from the restriction of the Auralan Legion that forces you to match the number of warden units (unless you want way more archers than wardens but that doesn't seem the rigth way to go)

[Sleepers]

53 minutes ago, woolf said:

for wardens the battalion + lightning reactions + shining company all seems to support small 10man units, more manouverable and with more wizards. eg OBR catapults will snipe out wizards and with no healing you lose significant output from not having power of hysh. probably in most turns the wizards will just power up themselves anyways so I don't think you can have too many of them. also flexibility in allowing to break shining formation for some while keeping it for others seems good. for archers I'd think larger units make more sense apart from the restriction of the Auralan Legion that forces you to match the number of warden units (unless you want way more archers than wardens but that doesn't seem the rigth way to go)

The only other two considerations is buffing bigger units gives more benefit, but the only real buff in reality to give them would be speed.. all our other buffs are actually rebuffs to the enemy in the form of minus to hit etc. and bigger units can take more losses before losing shining company and the wizard status.