Sons of Behemat Discussion 👣

[Reuben Parker]

56 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

A bit of a worst case scenario for me as the models are incredible but the rules are just so meh. Saved me an awful lot of money Mind you!
 

Can’t believe how much they are charging...

What don’t you like about the rules?

The only thing I feel was missing was either a artifact/trait per mega Gargant or a cheap battalion to achieve the same end. 
 

apart from that I like the 3 mega Gargants rules and the faction main and sub faction rules seem solid to me. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I’m definitely going to get the tome and make some Sons of Beastemat: magnetized Cygors so I can use them in my Beasts of Chaos army too.  Pretty much the same height as the Mancrushers i think.   I’ll get a big boy or two and magnetize them  too, with massive horns left over from not making five Thundertusks.  

The Taker Tribe looks solid, plays to the missions.   But the Warstomper one seems perhaps more appropriate for a bestial gargant herd.   

[Superking]

Cheapest place to buy them in UK?,

[decker_cky]

3 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I’m definitely going to get the tome and make some Sons of Beastemat: magnetized Cygors so I can use them in my Beasts of Chaos army too.  Pretty much the same height as the Mancrushers i think.      

Cygors are quite a bit bigger. Base size is much different too (mancrushers are on the same base as dragon ogors), and the cygors stance is much longer.

[Scurvydog]

Having seen the entire time now, I think the army can work and will be a lot like a Ogor monster list to play, although I am not quite sure it will do a better job. The most interesting tribe is the Kraken eaters taker tribe, due to the objective tricks it can do. You can probably win some games just by having a couple of lonely gargants running around just capping objectives, which will be a nightmare for certain lists to deal with. They wont have much output though and will probably be close to dead against most competent lists by turn 3-4, but might have sat on the points for long enough till then.

The most potent seems to be the stomper tribe, although I don't like the focus on just AoE versions of the core command abilities, that is rather dull, especially in an army with access to so few CP. The primary trait of +1/2 dmg on the mancrushers vs 10+/20+ units is going to be a huge factor in dealing with many armies and increases the threat immensely. The artifact and traits for the Warstomper are also quite nice, especially the artifact with reroll saves and 6s reflect MWs, that can add up on a 35 wound model... Traits are ok with possibly the d3 command points being best, due to the shouts. With no allies you can't sneak in a fungoid or two which I had originally thought about if they could have allied with other destruction factions.

The major downside to the entire army is staying power. Mancrushers are just 5+ saves and Megas with 4+. Nobody has any ignore wound saves or magic defense at all, with only 1 dispell/unbind possible with an artifact in the taker tribe. They are fast, but predictable, there will be no deep strikes, teleports or anything like that to go around and no manipulating the fighting order. I have a hard time seeing them get through a lords of the lodge fyreslayer blob in any way, and that is the nr 1 thing in competitive play to consider, as a unit of those guys will probably down 2-3 mancrushers and severely hurt a mega gargant before they even get to swing, even if you charged on your own turn.

For more casual play I think they can work and be quite fun, they probably will have some decent matchups in a competitive environment as well, but I will be surprised to see a lot of SoB lists sit on podium slots. I have orderen a merc warstomper for my chaos boys for fun, but if I wanted to optimize I'd probably leave him at home as especially the 1 CP cost hurts a lot for what you get for the points.

[novakai]

eh i don't think tournaments or competitive play  really matter right now  given  the current climate. big tournaments are basically cancel, no one is really keeping tracks of wins or the meta for the small tournaments that are running. By the the time thing get back to some semblance of normalcy, Broken realm book all came out, AoS 3.0 probably already launch and everything changed before things like the suppose shooting meta get into gear or army like Seraphon and Realmlord get any time to shine.

i think what important that the army is fun to play and that your not too oppressive like Knight where in 40K but your not too underpower to play the game of AoS. casual gaming is probably the best atmosphere for playing the game right now. 

[C0deb1ue]

9 hours ago, Reuben Parker said:

What don’t you like about the rules?

The only thing I feel was missing was either a artifact/trait per mega Gargant or a cheap battalion to achieve the same end. 
 

apart from that I like the 3 mega Gargants rules and the faction main and sub faction rules seem solid to me. 

these guys hit like wet noodles but more importantly I think there is very little difference in how they will actually play.
 

It’s a very small book with very few datascrolls and they are not really that meaningfully customisable at all.  Minimal effort on the rules for all the hype. It’s not even like there are any extra layers of customisation and you would think there would be slightly more for an army that essentially has 2 models with slightly different weapon profiles (Mega variants).
 

I’ve already bought into the “fun” with squigs and it’s not that fun having an underpowered army no matter how pretty the models are. Worse if they are potentially boring to play.

Edited October 12, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[Scurvydog]

30 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

these guys hit like wet noodles but more importantly I think there is actually very little difference in how they will actually play.
 

It’s a very small book with very few datascrolls and they are not really that meaningfully customisable at all.  

Minimal effort on the rules for all the hype. I’ve already bought into the “fun” with squigs and it’s not that fun having an underpowered army no matter how pretty the models are.

The damage will mostly come from the mancrushers I think, especially as a stomper clan they can push out some nice damage against larger units. Without that bonus they will not push out a lot though, the average of 5 damage vs a 4+ save of the base mancrusher melee profile is not impressive for the point cost at all, especially considering this is attached to just 12 wounds with a 5+ save. 3 guys from the warstomper tribe charging into 40 clanrats will do some damage though, most likely 3d3 mortal wounds and then 11-14 damage roughly each from the attacks, which should nicely destroy the entire 40 man blob. That is the ideal situation though.

Compared to similar costed models, like a 460 point mawkrusha it is rather interesting, as the Krusha has a larger output, but in a 1v1 with a warstomper for example, I think the warstomper would still come out on top, just due to being able to tank the mawkrusha for a couple of rounds, so despite a lower output, it should come out on top in the end, while also holding whatever obj they might be stood on. 

I agree though that the book lacks a bit of customization, I had hoped for more and while it is fun they got the unique tribes, it is also somewhat limiting they are locked into the specific models and even mixing them is rarely beneficial. Also some clear cut choices so you will probably run the same thing over and over.

45 minutes ago, novakai said:

eh i don't think tournaments or competitive play  really matter right now 

Well that is rather dependent on location, I have been to a few over the past months, with a lot of precautions sure, but it worked out fine and a proper manner and was highly competitive. The finals in my last one being between a top Tzeentch player vs a Katakros+Arkhan list. I personally faced 2 top tuned fyreslayer lists in 5 games and also a KO Ziflin list with warp lightning spell in a bottle and all that jazz. We also practice this stuff locally, while also playing plenty of more casual lists, so I will get my moneys worth with the mega gargant sure, but probably not bringing him to anything too serious.

[Nezzhil]

I played my first game with them yesterday (via TTS).

My list was:

Taker Tribe:

2 Kraken Eater
3 Mancrusher and 1x3 Mancrusher

I lost versus STD with Archaon. The opponent was a great player, so I learned a lot of things.

 

My first impressions are the following:

- Any -1 to hit has a devastating effect against Gargants.

- The subfaction rewards you for having a variety of Mega-Gargants, it was a mistake on my part not to take advantage of that. Kraken-Eaters are good thanks to their artefacts, the second was too much weak for me and a Breaker would be a better second option. 

- At the lowest level, they are still powerful and they can take a lot of damage.

- I missed a Triumph so much. I think it is necessary to play of less than 2000  and we have to fight to get it.

I'm very worried about SoB, they aren't very good at fighting things like Archaon, Stonehorns, units very armoured or units than can debuff our hits. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nezzhil

[Beliman]

43 minutes ago, Nezzhil said:

I'm very worried about SoB, they aren't very good at fighting things like Archaon, Stonehorns, units very armoured or units than can debuff our hits. 

I want to try a Gatekeeper tribe with Bossy Pants and Clever Clogs, Louder than Words and Kingslaughter Cowl?

It seems to be really powerful vs MawCrushas, BCR and this type of armies.

[MarauderSquig]

Damn, I wish they had more artefacts/traits. I was presuming that would be the bulk of the book. Gargants are all about looted trophies so it's a bit jarring the artefact cap is 1 or 2 with a Krakeneater. 

They're mostly uninspired too, very mathhammery. What a shame. I was hoping for 6/6/6 for each Mega then an equivalent to Mancrushers, like maybe a unit of 3 could unlock 1 for their "champion", and the usual subfaction stuff. 

[C0deb1ue]

1 hour ago, MarauderSquig said:

Damn, I wish they had more artefacts/traits. I was presuming that would be the bulk of the book. Gargants are all about looted trophies so it's a bit jarring the artefact cap is 1 or 2 with a Krakeneater. 

They're mostly uninspired too, very mathhammery. What a shame. I was hoping for 6/6/6 for each Mega then an equivalent to Mancrushers, like maybe a unit of 3 could unlock 1 for their "champion", and the usual subfaction stuff. 

Pretty much.... this. They could have been really customisable, perhaps in ways that changed them mechanically rather than just adding some wounds etc. The worst thing about the release is how they have taken an incredible theme and made them so boring with so little options. 

With effectively only two models to write rules for, I was expecting far more customisation and they literally didn't bother to make the one battleline model (50% of the armies models) customisable at all. Lazy money stuff but I shouldn't be surprised. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[KingBrodd]

Battle Ready Warstomper Painting Guide.

Edited October 12, 2020 by KingBrodd

[Kasper]

9 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

Battle Ready Warstomper Painting Guide

I have been semi tempted at jumping at the SoB but one thing that kept me from it was painting such huge models. This seems rather easy and very doable for someone like me. Im sure the paintjob could have been done better, but it looks imo great and I would happily throw that bad boy on the table and stomp some guys.

[KingBrodd]

Really hoping the Warhammer Community Podcast today is one dedicated to the Sons.

[KingBrodd]

7 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I have been semi tempted at jumping at the SoB but one thing that kept me from it was painting such huge models. This seems rather easy and very doable for someone like me. Im sure the paintjob could have been done better, but it looks imo great and I would happily throw that bad boy on the table and stomp some guys.

I agree mate. I'm not a good painter at all but this has put my biggest fear at rest.

[Reuben Parker]

I can’t refute lack of customization or lack of warscrolls. I’ve said several times my main gripe is lack of artifacts / traits for each Mega I personally feel they should all get one. 
 

however I will push back on saying they hit like wet noodles. On page 42 someone has done a breakdown of their expected damage vs 4+ saves. In summary 

kraken 9.27

stomper 12.3

breaker 13.34

maneater 5.03

and they compared to FLoSH (a feared hero on monster and sees competitive play) 12.82

so they are around the FLoSH level before you factor in their special attacks and their shooting (both have good impact hits). Also what gets lost in the shuffle is they actually don’t degrade that badly. Even at 1 wound a stomper still can get 10 attacks with his club. A breaker with the +2 attacks trait at 1 wound has 7 flail attacks still. Also the couple of rr1s are not included but don’t make a huge difference. 
 

the kraken also gets a huge boost if you give him the jaws and sandals artifacts (although he and takers are my least fav). 
 

then stomper tribe can massively up the damage output of man eaters. Whilst breaker tribe +1 to hit is huge for the mega and his 4+ to hit flail either go heroes wizards or command models would be my choices. So you have models that actually have good damage output that are consistent all the way to death. The competitive issue is more around screening and zoning but that’s a product of AoS itself not SoB. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by Reuben Parker
Lost not left

[C0deb1ue]

Well that's a little more reassuring damage wise but yeah the logistic issues remain as you say with the game mechanics.

[Reuben Parker]

11 minutes ago, C0deb1ue said:

Well that's a little more reassuring damage wise but yeah the logistic issues remain as you say with the game mechanics.

My plan is a 2 mega 1x3 3x1 man eater build. Push the 3 solo ones to take objectives vs melee armies. Your opponent can’t shift them with chaff and will have to send one of their damage dealers and hopefully allow for a counter attack from your mega or blob of 3. The army will struggle against lists that can make an insane deathstar as we can’t screen it. 
 

also I don’t see us beating elite melee armies that make us fight last like Fyreslayers or slaanesh. Our only hope would be lucky shooting to snipe heroes or impact hits if they position poorly. 

[Beliman]

I'm playing with https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/ at the moment: PDF down, 3 megas and a unit of 3 mancrushers without tribe and 1 unit of 3 mancrushers buffed by the Warstomper tribe and 1 shout).

Some things:
The Warstompers can give a lot to their fellow Mancrushers (dmg and movility).
The Gatekeepers fully tooled to kill Heroes is a monster (30 wounds to 4+saves).
I don't know how to play with the Kraken-eater. Maybe sit on an objective and kick it when 20 hearthguards charge your big boy?

SoB_DMGOutput.pdf

[Reuben Parker]

3 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I'm playing with https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/ at the moment: PDF down, 3 megas and a unit of 3 mancrushers without tribe and 1 unit of 3 mancrushers buffed by the Warstomper tribe and 1 shout).

Some things:
The Warstompers can give a lot to their fellow Mancrushers (dmg and movility).
The Gatekeepers fully tooled to kill Heroes is a monster (30 wounds to 4+saves).
I don't know how to play with the Kraken-eater. Maybe sit on an objective and kick it when 20 hearthguards charge your big boy?

SoB_DMGOutput.pdf 441.09 kB · 0 downloads

That’s my plan either to play a stomper plus gatebreaker Stompers list or a double gatebreaker breakers list. I see a lot of love online for the takers but their damage output doesn’t seem on par to me. Fancy rules are fine but in sigmar you need to be able to delete your opponents threatening units. 

[Tropical Ghost General]

Why is no one discussing the fact that this army has no interaction with endless spells?

The krakeneater artefact that makes them cast/unbind 'in the same manner as a wizard' doesn't grant the model the wizard keyword, so that means no dispelling endless spells that have already been cast and also no casting any endless spells either.

Add into the mix that Longshanks ability only lets you move over terrain that is under 4" in height or models with a wounds characteristic of less than 10, which means that currently endless spells can't be moved over, as they don't have a wounds characteristic and aren't terrain.

How GW could make such a fundamental error in terms of in-game interactions with a large and integral part of 2nd edition (endless spells), with a brand new faction, is honestly a massive headscratcher. 

[C0deb1ue]

 

13 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

My plan is a 2 mega 1x3 3x1 man eater build. Push the 3 solo ones to take objectives vs melee armies. Your opponent can’t shift them with chaff and will have to send one of their damage dealers and hopefully allow for a counter attack from your mega or blob of 3. The army will struggle against lists that can make an insane deathstar as we can’t screen it. 
 

also I don’t see us beating elite melee armies that make us fight last like Fyreslayers or slaanesh. Our only hope would be lucky shooting to snipe heroes or impact hits if they position poorly. 

Seems good, yeah I think SoB will struggle against a fair few armies. It seems you will have to be a really good player to make them work and even then they don't have all the tools as per the lack of options but also not enough people to put them on. I think Mancrushers could have been a lot more interesting rather than all the differentiation happening with the megas.

Edited October 12, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[C0deb1ue]

5 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

Why is no one discussing the fact that this army has no interaction with endless spells?

The krakeneater artefact that makes them cast/unbind 'in the same manner as a wizard' doesn't grant the model the wizard keyword, so that means no dispelling endless spells that have already been cast and also no casting any endless spells either.

Add into the mix that Longshanks ability only lets you move over terrain that is under 4" in height or models with a wounds characteristic of less than 10, which means that currently endless spells can't be moved over, as they don't have a wounds characteristic and aren't terrain.

How GW could make such a fundamental error in terms of in-game interactions with a large and integral part of 2nd edition (endless spells), with a brand new faction, is honestly a massive headscratcher. 

It seems intended. I'm not sure for what reason thought as magic is pretty important and these guys  just have to take it to the face. 

I'm not sure how gargants end up being non-magical, it could easily have been some innate quality that allowed you to access that part of the game.

Edited October 12, 2020 by C0deb1ue

[Reuben Parker]

Wait for FAQ as I saw a few pages back it was discussed and someone posted a screenshot of the designer saying that they can cast endless spells with the lantern. Dispelling wasn’t addressed from what I saw in the chat. I would imagine though that would be intended as well but again see if an FAQ drops. If that happens it does give takers a niche as dispelling an endless spell would be a big boon.