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Forrix

The heavy hand of GW balancing returns...

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1 minute ago, Captain Marius said:

 

One thing i dont get is the removal of the massive regiment discount. This doesnt make sense when the KO and Tzeentch books still have them...

KO doesn't have them either.

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Doh maybe theyre phasing them out then, in which case WHY do that at the end of a run of army books...!?

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1 hour ago, AdamR said:

KO doesn't have them either.

Neither do Tzeentch, from what i can remember

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Good thing they got them in for Mortek. That army needs all the help it can get...

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1 hour ago, Captain Marius said:

Warriors got a +1 in their melee profile, to wound in the case of hand weapons, and reroll saves of 1 at 20+ went to reroll saves at 10+. I think this is way better and worth the originall 100pts they were on par with liberators. And this before all the enhanced buffs they can get!

I agree with the chariot nerf, but then it was dumb having a load of individual chariots all with exalted charioteer stats - why take a unit of more than one at all?

One thing i dont get is the removal of the massive regiment discount. This doesnt make sense when the KO and Tzeentch books still have them...

The issue isn't the Chaos Warriors directly but the abundance of better Battleline units in other army books - battleline that performs better and costs less (ardboys for example). The way the warriors currently are is a slow rather easy to kill deployment zone objective holder... and then again they lack mass of models to really defend any objective. Imo a rend of -1 on their wepaons or a 5++ (against everything) would make them a hell lot more viable.

Edited by JackStreicher
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39 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

The issue isn't the Chaos Warriors directly but the abundance of better Battleline units in other army books - battleline that performs better and costs less (ardboys for example). The way the warriors currently are is a slow rather easy to kill deployment zone objective holder... and then again they lack mass of models to really defend any objective. Imo a rend of -1 on their wepaons or a 5++ (against everything) would make them a hell lot more viable.

Fully agreed, Chaos Warriors should have a tiny bit more bite. I'll field them regardless as they were the very first Warhammer minis I've ever bought (back when the plastic kit were a set of identical ones) but it's sad to think that those points would be so much better invested in other units when CW should rock! :)

 

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7 hours ago, MitGas said:

Fully agreed, Chaos Warriors should have a tiny bit more bite. I'll field them regardless as they were the very first Warhammer minis I've ever bought (back when the plastic kit were a set of identical ones) but it's sad to think that those points would be so much better invested in other units when CW should rock! :)

 

They would be absolutely perfect with 1 rend on the hand weapons. A lack of special weapons really brings them down. 

Similarly Chaos Knights hitting on 4s is a crime. 

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 Yeah they come off as an elite army in the book and the models, but in the rules are just regular normal knights or warriors.  

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5 hours ago, The World Tree said:

They would be absolutely perfect with 1 rend on the hand weapons. A lack of special weapons really brings them down. 

I'm not saying Chaos Warriors couldn't use help (I haven't played with or against the new ones yet) but I am saying that all the world's Stormcast players would fly to Nottinghham and stone the rules design team to death with their Liberator models if that happened.

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45 minutes ago, Forrix said:

I'm not saying Chaos Warriors couldn't use help (I haven't played with or against the new ones yet) but I am saying that all the world's Stormcast players would fly to Nottinghham and stone the rules design team to death with their Liberator models if that happened.

That's fair - Liberators should also be better. Black orcs were never better than Chaos Warriors (and Libs should be their equivalent) so why should Ardboyz now be better? 

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17 minutes ago, MitGas said:

That's fair - Liberators should also be better. Black orcs were never better than Chaos Warriors (and Libs should be their equivalent) so why should Ardboyz now be better? 

True.

it should be ardboys < Liberators == Chaos Warrior.

Liberators need a 3+ 3+ hit profile on all their weapons and they‘d be fine.

Chaos Warriors need special weapons

ardboys should lose rend and go up by 10-20 pts

 

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I never understood the perspective that things need to be good compared to X, rather than good in their own right. 

A chaos warrior isn't bad because an ardboy is good. It's bad because it doesn't do any dmg. At least Liberators can take a grand weapon.

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59 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I never understood the perspective that things need to be good compared to X, rather than good in their own right. 

A chaos warrior isn't bad because an ardboy is good. It's bad because it doesn't do any dmg. At least Liberators can take a grand weapon.

Well, in the case of CWs they got a background reason for being mean mofos, kinda like Space Marines and definitely more than Ardboys. The rules simply don't reflect it properly. I'm fine with the Ardboys being what they are but CWs should be better or at the very least equal in offensive output. Make em more expensive, whatever but don't destroy what they're known for - being the toughest battleline in Warhammer there is (Libs are arguably their equal or even stronger). 

Writers these days simply don't know Warhammer anymore. :P

In fact the whole StD battletome should have way more offensive output (with the units being more expensive in return) - that is how Chaos is written in the fluff. As it stands we got lots of units/heroes now that are easily stronger. Feels wrong.

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1 hour ago, MitGas said:

Well, in the case of CWs they got a background reason for being mean mofos, kinda like Space Marines and definitely more than Ardboys. The rules simply don't reflect it properly. I'm fine with the Ardboys being what they are but CWs should be better or at the very least equal in offensive output. Make em more expensive, whatever but don't destroy what they're known for - being the toughest battleline in Warhammer there is (Libs are arguably their equal or even stronger). 

Writers these days simply don't know Warhammer anymore. :P

In fact the whole StD battletome should have way more offensive output (with the units being more expensive in return) - that is how Chaos is written in the fluff. As it stands we got lots of units/heroes now that are easily stronger. Feels wrong.

There isn't much particularly special about a Chaos Warrior in AoS. They are basically the human version of an Ard Boy. Ard Boyz are the biggest, meanest, most gifted, orruks in their tribe. Sound familiar? A Brawl isn't a joke, it's a paramilitary force of naturally gifted killers who get stronger the more they do what they are already great at.

The whfb fluff is pretty much gone, where chaos armour was the first gift from the gods and bonded to the warrior, etc, etc. 

Basically the new fluff is that the legions are so vast, large and wide spread that the middling warrior is the equal to an elite in any other human force. 

That isn't to say that a CW shouldn't have better stats than the warscroll. Like a greatsword has better kill potential. But, that other factions can and probably should have comparable or possibly better troops. 

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11 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

There isn't much particularly special about a Chaos Warrior in AoS. They are basically the human version of an Ard Boy. Ard Boyz are the biggest, meanest, most gifted, orruks in their tribe. Sound familiar? A Brawl isn't a joke, it's a paramilitary force of naturally gifted killers who get stronger the more they do what they are already great at.

The whfb fluff is pretty much gone, where chaos armour was the first gift from the gods and bonded to the warrior, etc, etc. 

Basically the new fluff is that the legions are so vast, large and wide spread that the middling warrior is the equal to an elite in any other human force. 

That isn't to say that a CW shouldn't have better stats than the warscroll. Like a greatsword has better kill potential. But, that other factions can and probably should have comparable or possibly better troops. 

Well, then GW needs to fire these bad writers ASAP and bring Chaos (Warriors) back to their former glory as that old flavoring is sorely missed. There's a reason why Chaos Warriors outsold all other factions by a GIGANTIC margin. That said, I love Orks. They can be super-strong (and Black orcs were almost CWs back then anyways) and I got no problem with brutes wiping the floor with a Chaos Warrior (or even Chosen) but as it stands the power-level of Chaos mortals is 9 circles of wrong at the moment and they've massively misinterpreted what it should be. Reminds me of Disney not getting their own stuff (this is a nefarious stab at those horrible new SW movies)...

It already started back when suddenly Eldar started becoming more adept in close combat than Khorne Champions. Something is seriously wrong there too.

When lots of players argue that taking Marauders (those are your run of the mill mortal chaos dudes by the way) is the better option, then your Chaos Warriors are wrong. Simple as that.

Edit: But I gladly agree to disagree. However i still feel that they need to fix a lot of things about AoS to get that proper feeling again. I'm sure in time they'll manage.

Edited by MitGas
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4 hours ago, Forrix said:

I'm not saying Chaos Warriors couldn't use help (I haven't played with or against the new ones yet) but I am saying that all the world's Stormcast players would fly to Nottinghham and stone the rules design team to death with their Liberator models if that happened.

Well, I'm primarily a Stormcast player in Nottingham and I disagree. At least the Liberators have a special weapon on the prime and rerolls of 1 to save. Both need help, mind. Though with Liberators I'd either give them self-staunch defender or each model counts for two on objectives vs rend on the CWs. 

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As long as people keep buying stuff from GW at this rate, there isn't going to be any incentive to handle balance better 😂

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2 minutes ago, marke said:

As long as people keep buying stuff from GW at this rate, there isn't going to be any incentive to handle balance better 😂

I've been seeing this a lot lately.  I would say that there is logic in this.  The stuff sells very well as it is.  

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20 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

The issue isn't the Chaos Warriors directly but the abundance of better Battleline units in other army books - battleline that performs better and costs less (ardboys for example).

Battleline in other tomes that have access to the rules in the Slaves tome?

'ardboyz can get marks now and be battleline in a chaos army? 

 

Cross-book comparisons are pretty much universally a bad idea.

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Obviously Ardboyz are better than chaos warriors because Grimgor defeated Archaon way back during the storms of chaos. That event reverberated through the realm of chaos, and impacted the  conception of Ardboyz and Chaos Warriors that were created in the  world of Sigmar. 

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40 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Obviously Ardboyz are better than chaos warriors because Grimgor defeated Archaon way back during the storms of chaos. That event reverberated through the realm of chaos, and impacted the  conception of Ardboyz and Chaos Warriors that were created in the  world of Sigmar. 

DECKER !!! Good to see you at least virtually.   Beasts are best!

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On 1/15/2020 at 3:07 PM, AdamR said:

Warriors went up a whole 10 points. That's hardly "way more". 

They also get +1 to wound with hand weapons +1 attack on the champion and reroll saves rather than reroll 1's coming in at 10 models rather than 20...

10 points each set of 5 and they lost the horde bonus. 30 warriors cost now whopping 600 points instead of 460.

If that is not massive i don't know what is.

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23 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

The issue isn't the Chaos Warriors directly but the abundance of better Battleline units in other army books - battleline that performs better and costs less (ardboys for example).

Are you by any chance a career politician?

So you are saying, the Chaos Warriors are not bad, it's just that the other armies have better and cheaper ones.

I will apply this at my next stock market exchange.  I will not be mad that my money is gone because money can't be gone. It's just that someone else has it.

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4 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

There isn't much particularly special about a Chaos Warrior in AoS. They are basically the human version of an Ard Boy.

So why are they the most expensive point wise?

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7 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Are you by any chance a career politician?

So you are saying, the Chaos Warriors are not bad, it's just that the other armies have better and cheaper ones.

I will apply this at my next stock market exchange.  I will not be mad that my money is gone because money can't be gone. It's just that someone else has it.

Except you lost money while the CW are as they are, no money lost. Also I considered internal balance that‘s where my argument is coming from, in other words „they are okay in CW but bad compared to other armies“.

I‘d argue that they‘d have been a solid battleline unit about a year ago, just as much as Liberators were solid about 2-3 years ago. Yet the power wheel turns and CW were updated as being already out of date again.

however, let‘s wait for the campaign book, shall we?

Edited by JackStreicher
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