AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

In case it gets brought up again; I’m going to leave a link for the relevant ruling on Chaos Warriors weapons(which also apply to Marauders, Knights and Varanguard).

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf

 

page 2

[Tali182]

I think the mixed weapons is fairly clear once you compare a few similar warscrolls.  

The questions of logic come up when you consider the recent change to what GW did to 'ardboys seems like a little backflip in their stance on simplifying units, though in saying that they did not do it to brutes 🤷‍♂️

The bigger concern i have is it seems that every warriors unit going forward atm should have one model with a shield to gain access to MW saves because of the wording, which i would hate to see as it clearly is not in the spirit of the rule and would look odd to me (i am mainly in the hobby for the looks of it) This will hopefully be updated to match the way shields work for 'ardboys in that if you use the save you have to allocate the wounds to the model with that save. 

[JackStreicher]

32 minutes ago, Tali182 said:

I would love to if i could find one

Build one yourself from a mumakil or wait until mierce Miniatures has a 50% sale going =} and put the underworld warrants on top of it.

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Tali182]

Just now, JackStreicher said:

Build one yourself from a mumakil or wait until mierce Miniatures has a 50% sale going =}

 

I really love the original model so have been holding out hope it would get a re release for a few years now (it happened for the skaven warpseer which was another model i always wanted) but that one does look decent so it is tempting

[JackStreicher]

4 minutes ago, Tali182 said:

I really love the original model so have been holding out hope it would get a re release for a few years now (it happened for the skaven warpseer which was another model i always wanted) but that one does look decent so it is tempting

Didn‘t it cost ~400 GBP? I‘d skip that esp. considering FW‘s Quality

[Sinfullyvannila]

9 minutes ago, Tali182 said:

I think the mixed weapons is fairly clear once you compare a few similar warscrolls.  

The questions of logic come up when you consider the recent change to what GW did to 'ardboys seems like a little backflip in their stance on simplifying units, though in saying that they did not do it to brutes 🤷‍♂️

The bigger concern i have is it seems that every warriors unit going forward atm should have one model with a shield to gain access to MW saves because of the wording, which i would hate to see as it clearly is not in the spirit of the rule and would look odd to me (i am mainly in the hobby for the looks of it) This will hopefully be updated to match the way shields work for 'ardboys in that if you use the save you have to allocate the wounds to the model with that save. 

Well, technically you’d need 2 shields, but I was planning on putting at least 3  halberds in any units of 15 or higher anyway.

 

i just shared the link because the ruling was merely referenced as opposed to cited before.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Sinfullyvannila

[Gibs]

11 hours ago, Coolwood said:

Hey guys, what are we thinking to the new lord on karkadrak? 250 seems quite steep for him competitively in my view. Anyone got any build ideas apart from the obvious - lots of knights?

My biggest issue is that he does not have the Monster keyword and his command ability is the same as a Chaos Lord on Demonic Mount that is 80 points cheaper and funnily enough is classified as a Monster......

I tend to lean towards Despoilers and the Karkadrak has little synergy other than Helm of Many Eyes.

If you are playing despoilers it’s better to go Demonic Mount and put the 80 points towards another DP IMO.

If they FAQ him to have the Monster keyword he might be worth taking because he certainly can kill stuff.

If I was going to put him in a list it’s probably still Despoilers so he can fight first combined with Ruinbringers Battalion for 2x D3 impact hits on a 2+. 4 mortal wounds and striking first is pretty solid. 

Honestly though I think they missed a trick with this hero. He should have been 100-150 points more and been made into a killing machine as then you could build a mortal list around him as an alternative to Archaon or DP’s. 

Maybe I am being too harsh?

Edited December 17, 2019 by Gibs

[W33daxe]

I´m almost cerntainly going to get some Varanguard and a Gaunt Summoner to play with my Archaon.

Archaon

Gaunt Summoner

Varanguard (Fellspears)

Varanguard (Ensorcelled Weapons)

Varanguard (Daemonforged Blades)

The last 50 points might just be endless spells like Palisade + Gravetide, or a Purple Sun.

I´ve been wanting to do this army since aos dropped, but couldn´t really spend all the money on Varanguard. 
I still can´t,  but I feel like I sort of have to
Anyone else tempted for such an elite army?

[Patriarch]

27 minutes ago, W33daxe said:

I´m almost cerntainly going to get some Varanguard and a Gaunt Summoner to play with my Archaon.

Archaon

Gaunt Summoner

Varanguard (Fellspears)

Varanguard (Ensorcelled Weapons)

Varanguard (Daemonforged Blades)

The last 50 points might just be endless spells like Palisade + Gravetide, or a Purple Sun.

I´ve been wanting to do this army since aos dropped, but couldn´t really spend all the money on Varanguard. 
I still can´t,  but I feel like I sort of have to
Anyone else tempted for such an elite army?

I'm making 1.  All i need is 3 more varanguards

[Naem]

Well boys, now that the Battletome is there, are you satisfied with the rules? I am not quite sure to be frank, but I haven't played a game with the new rules yet, so of course I cant know for sure. But my impression is, that the units stats (that remained the same for big parts of the army) are still quite underwhelming. Especially for Knights I was hoping for some stark improvement. But maybe with all the auras and allegiances and magic stuff they can be pimped to be as scary as they should be. 

So, what are your overall thoughts? Is the army now on even grounds with the newer mighty forces like Bonereapers or still rather meh from a competitive pov? 

[W33daxe]

1 minute ago, Patriarch said:

I'm making 1.  All i need is 3 more varanguards

Sweet, besides Archaon what else are you thinking list-wise?

[W33daxe]

Just now, Naem said:

Well boys, now that the Battletome is there, are you satisfied with the rules? I am not quite sure to be frank, but I haven't played a game with the new rules yet, so of course I cant know for sure. But my impression is, that the units stats (that remained the same for big parts of the army) are still quite underwhelming. Especially for Knights I was hoping for some stark improvement. But maybe with all the auras and allegiances and magic stuff they can be pimped to be as scary as they should be. 

So, what are your overall thoughts? Is the army now on even grounds with the newer mighty forces like Bonereapers or still rather meh from a competitive pov? 

Well, first of all, I´m happy with the tome. It´s a good read, they´ve done a great job pulling the forces together and making it pretty thematic. 
Competetively, I think they´ll do good as a MSU toolbox army with a pretty solid, but not the best, buffed up charge. 
My problem is, competetively, that I always start an army with Archaon. When he was but a wee horseriding chap, I had plenty of points to play with.
Now it starts at -800. I got Archaon as a gift, but still, I´m not going S2D without the big guy.
I still haven´t played him with the new rules. 
 

[Sinfullyvannila]

38 minutes ago, Naem said:

Well boys, now that the Battletome is there, are you satisfied with the rules? I am not quite sure to be frank, but I haven't played a game with the new rules yet, so of course I cant know for sure. But my impression is, that the units stats (that remained the same for big parts of the army) are still quite underwhelming. Especially for Knights I was hoping for some stark improvement. But maybe with all the auras and allegiances and magic stuff they can be pimped to be as scary as they should be. 

So, what are your overall thoughts? Is the army now on even grounds with the newer mighty forces like Bonereapers or still rather meh from a competitive pov? 

I haven’t gotten any games in with them and it will be a while. But coming from playing armies with glaring fundamental weaknesses(Tzeentch, Stormcast, Mawtribes, well Gutbusters); I think once the Sphiranx comes out we’ll have all the tools we need to win games against any faction, though of course some as an uphill battle. I think our only real weakness comes from overcosted battleline(Marauders aside) and that’s nothing that can’t be addressed.

Happy Daemon Princes got the buff they deserved lore-wise, REALLY happy with the Gaunt Summoner on Disc and both Chaos Sorcerer Lord changes, and happy our battline units(other than Chariots of course) can mix weapons.

Khorne or Slaanesh knights get pretty toothy with the Sorcerer Lord buff(or the Khorne Prayer). 10 of them with lances should delete heroes(faction bosses and Ethereal aside) and generic monsters with ease, and, assuming they don’t get bad luck, any MSU <20 wounds.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Sinfullyvannila

[Mikkl]

2 hours ago, Gibs said:

My biggest issue is that he does not have the Monster keyword and his command ability is the same as a Chaos Lord on Demonic Mount that is 80 points cheaper and funnily enough is classified as a Monster......

The Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount isn't a monster. So the Despoiler benefits only apply to the Lord (and Sorcerer) on manticore.

[Charleston]

4 hours ago, Gibs said:

Can you find room for a Harbinger from the Nurgle book? 

Not this time as I simply do not have the model yet. I´ve talked to a friend who will share bits with me so I can build one over the holiday season. Pointwise I guess I would have to trade 10 Chaos Warriors in for this.

[BaronBanana]

6 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

There you go:warhammer-aos-monstrous-arcanum.pdf

imo it‘s good on its own and a absolute murder with a few buffs to its trampling feet

 

edit: I am really astonished that no one apart from me builds lists with it.

 

It gives me a reason to build a fun Norsca list with nothing but marauders and monsters

[FERRUMITE]

Uggghhh man I wanna run Despoilers but the lack of Mark of Undivided for Daemon Prince really kills it for me. I miss when there was more than just Be'Lakor when it came to Undivided Princes. That's always been a dumb retcon imo. At least we have Undivided back for regular dudes though.

[Grimrock]

5 hours ago, Naem said:

Well boys, now that the Battletome is there, are you satisfied with the rules? I am not quite sure to be frank, but I haven't played a game with the new rules yet, so of course I cant know for sure. But my impression is, that the units stats (that remained the same for big parts of the army) are still quite underwhelming. Especially for Knights I was hoping for some stark improvement. But maybe with all the auras and allegiances and magic stuff they can be pimped to be as scary as they should be. 

So, what are your overall thoughts? Is the army now on even grounds with the newer mighty forces like Bonereapers or still rather meh from a competitive pov? 

I think the book has some really potent tools for competitive play. I'll agree that the scrolls are a little underwhelming, but full rerolls are deceptively powerful and they're all over. I think a lot of people are underestimating how powerful models will be under the effect of all the various buffs.

For example, take marauders. A full hit/wound reroll approximately doubles their damage output, and all it takes is a 3+ prayer or a cast on a 6.  Add on the mark of nurgle from a general and 30 of them put out about 12 r1 d2 wounds and 28 r1 d1 wounds. That's about 35 wounds to a 4+ save, and they can go again for a command point. Compare to the base warscroll of 14 wounds to a 4+ save and you can see the difference.

Then the tools from the legions are really potent as well, and seem surprisingly balanced. Summoning multiple back line units can be back breaking in some scenarios. Blocking line of site for free is killer.  Ignore battleshock is... Shocking haha. Bonuses to cast with the lore is really good as well.

Honestly the biggest weakness I've seen competitively is the battalions are a little weak. 1 drops are possible which is good, but they're expensive and the abilities are pretty poor outside ruinbringer. Even with that I think they'll do really well and I'm mostly just excited to get some more table time.

[Patriarch]

7 hours ago, W33daxe said:

Sweet, besides Archaon what else are you thinking list-wise?

The same as you. 3 teams of varanguards and a guant summoner.  I don't know which weapons and endless spell i will use.  

[Gibs]

45 minutes ago, Patriarch said:

The same as you. 3 teams of varanguards and a guant summoner.  I don't know which weapons and endless spell i will use.  

Have been playing around with Archaon and I keep thinking a block of Warriors and a Chaos Sorcerer Lord might also be nice?

Sorcerer giving re-rolls for Saves is very powerful in an elite army where every wound lost is a big deal. It’s very flexible and the baseline spells are very strong with the threat of teleportation impacting how your opponents sets up their deployment. 

Once warriors get passed 10 they re-roll saves and with immunity to battle shock from Archaon they are self sufficient even if teleported behind enemy lines.

Even if the Warriors don’t workout I feel the Sorcerer is too powerful to leave at home. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Gibs

[Kurrilino]

9 hours ago, Gibs said:

My biggest issue is that he does not have the Monster keyword and his command ability is the same as a Chaos Lord on Demonic Mount that is 80 points cheaper and funnily enough is classified as a Monster......

I tend to lean towards Despoilers and the Karkadrak has little synergy other than Helm of Many Eyes.

If you are playing despoilers it’s better to go Demonic Mount and put the 80 points towards another DP IMO.

If they FAQ him to have the Monster keyword he might be worth taking because he certainly can kill stuff.

If I was going to put him in a list it’s probably still Despoilers so he can fight first combined with Ruinbringers Battalion for 2x D3 impact hits on a 2+. 4 mortal wounds and striking first is pretty solid. 

Honestly though I think they missed a trick with this hero. He should have been 100-150 points more and been made into a killing machine as then you could build a mortal list around him as an alternative to Archaon or DP’s. 

Maybe I am being too harsh?

Well, one has 3+ armor the other one not. That's the point difference

[Patriarch]

29 minutes ago, Gibs said:

Have been playing around with Archaon and I keep thinking a block of Warriors and a Chaos Sorcerer Lord might also be nice?

Sorcerer giving re-rolls for Saves is very powerful in an elite army where every wound lost is a big deal. It’s very flexible and the baseline spells are very strong with the threat of teleportation impacting how your opponents sets up their deployment. 

Once warriors get passed 10 they re-roll saves and with immunity to battle shock from Archaon they are self sufficient even if teleported behind enemy lines.

Even if the Warriors don’t workout I feel the Sorcerer is too powerful to leave at home. 

 

 

I didn't fully analysed the book yet.  But the varanguards are battlelines if you only have everchosen units in your list.  If you have warriors, you will need at least 3 teams as battlelines.

I tryed that and i could get archaon, 2x3 varanguards, 3x5 chaos warriors for 1700 pts.  Which left 300 pts to play with.

[Gibs]

26 minutes ago, Patriarch said:

I didn't fully analysed the book yet.  But the varanguards are battlelines if you only have everchosen units in your list.  If you have warriors, you will need at least 3 teams as battlelines.

I tryed that and i could get archaon, 2x3 varanguards, 3x5 chaos warriors for 1700 pts.  Which left 300 pts to play with.

Host of the Everchosen is the faction you pick for the army just like Despoilers, Ravagers or Cabalists. That is how I am reading it anyway.

You can take anything in that army unless I am missing something and provided it’s all ‘Host of the Everchosen’ then Varanguard are Battleline as are Warriors etc.  you only start getting into trouble if you take allies that cannot be part of the ‘Host of the Everchosen’.

A big block of unmovable warriors anchoring the middle seems worth dropping one set of Varanguard? Also gives the place for the Sorc to hide after turn 1. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Gibs

[BrocknerTheBear]

I think the only reservation I have with this book is that there is no "chaos lord and warriors" type faction inside it. Despoilers is okay but you cant even take a command trait in that one if your not a daemon prince. Feels like a massive missed moment for this book.

[Charleston]

Okay, I´m back from the game with the list mentioned above. It was an awesome fight and a lot of fun. OBR would have clearly won as my buddy got the doubleturn he needed to close the game, but he passed and the game stayed a close race till the end.

The whole nurgle-bomb thing works great. Warriors or Marauders that cause MW´s when attacked are great. Also the whole nurglebomb thing worked out quite well. 20 Marauders from the plaguetouched battalion, the nurgle DP CA and the mask of darkness ends up as a quite neat tactic.

I also noticed that I like Chariots quite a lot. 120 pts seemed too much in my eyes, yet in both games so far they have done a great job. The damage is fine, the mortals on charge are not bad and the greatblade had enough output so convince me to take this unit as a serious choice.

The DP....well, 6 stalkers, bad placement as I was panicing due to the crawler...all in all I can´t tell you more than the fact that he died in a turn and made me sad.

A hidden gem that performed great was the unit of 10 chosen. With a lord of chaos to fight twice this guys are awesome. Meanwhile knights with lances are still quite disappointing as they become useless when charged.

I was shocked to notice that the Lord of Chaos has only a 4+ save. It´s a shame, propably the rules department wanted the new lord on drake to shine so they didn´t give the LoC the 3+ which just feels wrong in every way.

The Nurgle Aura tackles a problem of the army in an quite okay-ish way: Out low damage values. I had several hits that were upgraded, althrough to be honest not many came through the enemies save as we also lack rend~ Actually the battalion felt more valuable as for 180 pts it delivered over 20 mortals over the course of the game, and that without any restrictions to movement.