AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[NauticalSoup]

12 minutes ago, readercolin said:

Basically, what it comes down to is that if they errata the coherency rule to be 1-6 instead of 1-5, I would consider bringing Pallidors. 

And Palladors aren't the only unit that would warrant consideration with that change. I'd say nearly everything in blocks of 3 and 6 right now is crippled by coherency, and the sheer number of them says to me it should kick in at 7.

[Jaskier]

The update has left me stumped on my list. I had a Stardrake with the Amulet of Destiny which felt good in my games, but with the double nerf to that and Heroic Recovery it lost a lot of implicit value as it's going to be a lot easier to bring down thanks to those two changes, and as it can't be the general I can't slap Ironoak Artisan on it to offset the change. 

A 15 point drop for the Dreadlord means I could feasibly exchange the Stardrake and the Sorceress in my list for a Dreadlord with the 5+ Noxious Breath mount trait and something like Drycha (who also dropped 15 points, which means I'd actually be able to fit them both in.) Something like this; 

Dreadlord on Black Dragon - General, Ironoak Artisan

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix - Arcane Tome, Regrowth

Drycha - Cage of Thorns

3x10 Dreadspears

4 Fulminators 

20 Sisters of the Watch

I think this is actually stronger than my previous list; the points changes meant it wouldn't have been feasible before. The Anointed gets an Arcane Tome now that the Stardrake isn't hogging the artifact (which is great as it can self trigger its save roll boost) the Dreadlord makes good use of Ironoak Artisan, and Drycha is a beast. Not the most optimal still but for what I'm going for I think it'll work out better. Alternatively, I could use the spare 5 points to 'upgrade' the Dreadlord to a Hurricanum with Battlemage; more and better shooting plus an extra wizard, but a lot less melee threat. Hmph. 

I still really want to try the Celestant Prime, ideally I'd have him in over the Dreadlord or even Drycha, but not sure what I could feasibly change to fit him points-wise (I don't own any cheaper Battleline than Dreadspears.) 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Jaskier

[Barbarian Borelord]

I am confused about the update for Alarielle; it says: 

Add the following: ‘If this unit is part of a Sylvaneth army, it knows all of the spells from the Lore of the Deepwood in addition to the other spells it knows.’

So would that mean she suddenly forgets the Deepwood spells when being in a Living City army? But her warscroll already said that she knows the Lore of the Deepwood, and this update says to add this line, not delete or replace anything. So what is going on here??

[Thugmullet]

3 hours ago, Barbarian Borelord said:

I am confused about the update for Alarielle; it says: 

Add the following: ‘If this unit is part of a Sylvaneth army, it knows all of the spells from the Lore of the Deepwood in addition to the other spells it knows.’

So would that mean she suddenly forgets the Deepwood spells when being in a Living City army? But her warscroll already said that she knows the Lore of the Deepwood, and this update says to add this line, not delete or replace anything. So what is going on here??

Basically it added the Sylvaneth army bit. So she can't use Deepwood spells in Cities armies.

 

[Warbossironteef]

15 hours ago, Jaskier said:

The update has left me stumped on my list. I had a Stardrake with the Amulet of Destiny which felt good in my games, but with the double nerf to that and Heroic Recovery it lost a lot of implicit value as it's going to be a lot easier to bring down thanks to those two changes, and as it can't be the general I can't slap Ironoak Artisan on it to offset the change. 

A 15 point drop for the Dreadlord means I could feasibly exchange the Stardrake and the Sorceress in my list for a Dreadlord with the 5+ Noxious Breath mount trait and something like Drycha (who also dropped 15 points, which means I'd actually be able to fit them both in.) Something like this; 

Dreadlord on Black Dragon - General, Ironoak Artisan

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix - Arcane Tome, Regrowth

Drycha - Cage of Thorns

3x10 Dreadspears

4 Fulminators 

20 Sisters of the Watch

I think this is actually stronger than my previous list; the points changes meant it wouldn't have been feasible before. The Anointed gets an Arcane Tome now that the Stardrake isn't hogging the artifact (which is great as it can self trigger its save roll boost) the Dreadlord makes good use of Ironoak Artisan, and Drycha is a beast. Not the most optimal still but for what I'm going for I think it'll work out better. Alternatively, I could use the spare 5 points to 'upgrade' the Dreadlord to a Hurricanum with Battlemage; more and better shooting plus an extra wizard, but a lot less melee threat. Hmph. 

I still really want to try the Celestant Prime, ideally I'd have him in over the Dreadlord or even Drycha, but not sure what I could feasibly change to fit him points-wise (I don't own any cheaper Battleline than Dreadspears.) 

Looks like fun and something I've been thinking about as well. One thing about Stardrake is that he has lots of range and his casting buff is quite nice. That said, I do think 4x Fulminators is probably more "competitive." I like the idea of Prime and Warsong together. Both have 4++ and Warsong with portals is a self-sufficient caster with a lot of flexibility. She can buff her own casting, deal mortals, heal things, etc. She's also not terrible in a fight either. 

For what it's worth, Stardrake, Prime and Warsong can do some legit ranged damage:

• Rain of Stars: - 30 inch - 4 x 3+ 2+ -3 rend 3 damage
• Prime's Cometstrike: - 24 inch  D3 mortals within 3 inches 
• Warsong Spellportal Swarm of Sprites: - 18 inch plus 9 inch: All Enemy units within 9 take mortals for each 5 in casting roll

That's legit range dmg, enough to take off key heroes and you dont have to over extended very much due to the range. I just wish the Stardrake was a bit cheaper.

 

LEADERS
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)
- General
- Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan
- Artefact: Arcane Tome
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Warsong Revenant (275)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge
- Allies
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)
- Celestine Hammer
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny
Celestant-Prime, Hammer of Sigmar (325)

UNITS
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (105)
10 x Freeguild Handgunners (105)
5 x Tree-Revenants (80)
ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Chronomantic Cogs (45)

TOTAL: 1995/2000 WOUNDS: 80

[Jaskier]

The combo of a Warsong + Prime looks like a fun twist on the mortal-bomb tactic. I do see the value of the Stardrake as a fast, high-range shooting unit; it's a decent character sniper in my experience, though obviously it's whether 500 is justified for that. I really liked using it before the Amulet nerf and haven't tried it since, but that kind of list might be the best way to utilise it. 

The other thing I've been thinking about is the potential of Stormdrake Guard. Now, they're clearly better in Hammerhal, but the Living City ambush protects them from alpha strikes. They pair beautifully with a Frostheart and healing is more valuable for them than Fulminators, but the main trick to them is the hero phase move and charge; it allows you to circumvent both Redeploy and Unleash Hell, and it allows you to pull the Ironjawz trick of charging in the hero phase, retreating in the movement phase, then piling in come the fight phase to ensure they get to strike before anything can hurt them. 

I think the potential of this particular trick might be best suited to Living City given we can ambush them in the backfield, slingshot them into combat (or a different unit, i.e. Fulminators) and then on the subsequent turn use the close proximity to the foe to launch a two-pronged assault that can't be countered easily; the Stormdrakes do their hero phase charge, whilst another unit (i.e. Fulminators) uses the shoot-then-move to close in, and given the Stormdrakes would've retreated, the Fulminators can safely fight, then the Stormdrakes can fight afterward without any reprisal. That's a pretty brutal 1-2 punch that most armies won't have an answer to, especially as the 3" coherency of the Stormdrakes lets them tag multiple units very easily if you so choose (and each counts as 5 models on objectives!) The only concern is whether to take 2 or 4 Stormdrakes alongside the 4 Fulminators; 4 are nigh unstoppable next to a Phoenix, but 2 allows me to fit shooting in for the initial alpha drop. I really think there's a lot of potential there. 

[Jaskier]

Well, I finally settled on what to use - it's not a list I'm 100% happy with, but it'll do for now. I cracked Gotrek out - but, and this is a big but, it's without a friendly Battlemage to support him; I can't quite fit it in points-wise, and I feel like I can 'get away with it' so to speak. The general idea now is that Gotrek walks up one side/the middle (wherever there's an objective) while my Frosty Anointed and ambushers (4 Fulminators and 20 Sisters of the Watch) focus on the other side, forcing the opponent to engage them or Gotrek. I've since tested this specific combo against Soulblight - where Gotrek was fed chaff but kept clearing the middle objective on my turn (and losing it on theirs, which is his obvious counter; he can't stop your opponent scoring from 6" away.) The way I see it, his presence on one side coupled with a hyper deadly, mobile and tough trio of units on the other side forces opponents to commit one way and hopefully pressure them into making mistakes. He also acts as a hard counter to Sons of Behemat - but only if he gets in early, which is where the lack of a Battlemage may mess me up.

The best use of Gotrek I see in Living City is just as a funnel, to have a really tough unit to push one side while the ambushers push elsewhere. As an aside, my cursed dice luck with him continued - he didn't take a single point of damage from anything, but through three activations across two turns (one end of phase in his turn where he got dragged into the target to my opponents' surprise, then two in my turn) he failed to kill Prince Vhordrai (who only had All Out Defence to save him) and that was with Gotrek having +1 to-hit and to-wound for two of those activations! 

 

[Lord Krungharr]

After I try my pure Fyreslayers out, I'll finish building my Frostheart Phoenix and give the Living City a whirl.  Just read the new warscroll for Fulminators; now I see why they're popular.  I think even a unit of 2 if they get the charge can really bracket a megagargant with All Out Attack.  My Order armies are focusing on Dwarves but I like the Living City to use with my smattering of taller folk.

 

[NauticalSoup]

I think arcane tome is almost always more useful creating an additional wizard than giving an existing wizard an extra spell.

[Jaskier]

The Arcane Tome is near mandatory on the Phoenix if you're using one; it lets it self-cast to trigger its +1 save ability, and between that, Ironoak Artisan, Mystic Shield, etc you can get ridiculous amounts of save bonuses on it to keep it on a 3+ save negating any and all Rend. I've been taking Lifesurge on mine but Flaming Weapons is a great shout to boost the Ice Talons' damage output and more easily trigger the save boost ability using a low cast spell. 

The Spear of the Hunt is best suited to damage dealers, and the Frosty definitely does not fit the bill (if the +1 Rend could be applied to a mount as well, it'd be fine.) You're best off using the Spear on something that isn't as tanky as a Phoenix so you get more value out of the strikes first ability to setup one-two punches with another scary unit charging; the Spear goes well on a Dreadlord with a lance, or if you combo a Treelord Ancient with him then potentially a Durthu. A top Aussie player I know also recommends it on the Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (and it's about the biggest model you can ambush, and has a nice once-per-game free command that works a treat with Fulminators.)

[Frowny]

Has anyone tried dark riders recently? They seem pretty versatile as screens and objective grabbers or pinning pieces. Just lots of units of 5 maybe 1 of 10. 

Is the assassin any good? At least he can be hard to kill if desired.

[Jaskier]

On 1/3/2022 at 1:28 AM, Frowny said:

Has anyone tried dark riders recently? They seem pretty versatile as screens and objective grabbers or pinning pieces. Just lots of units of 5 maybe 1 of 10. 

Is the assassin any good? At least he can be hard to kill if desired.

I ran them at a tournament recently as part of an all Dark Elf force. I think they're a good fast cavalry unit; they'll never really do much damage, but they're perfect as mobile screens - their -1 Bravery aura is a nice extra (it can potentially deny Heroic Recoveries!) The only issue I find with them is squeezing them in with other stuff; if they were straight Battleline, they'd be near auto includes for me. My issue with needing an Assassin general to make them Battleline is there's much better heroes to put those command traits on (this is City dependent in fairness) and if you use his 'hiding' rule you'll be losing out on the CP each hero phase for your general being alive and on the field (as he's treated as being in reserve.) 

As it is, Dark Riders are a perfectly fine use of points if you need a fast chaff wall/objective taker, but keep in mind they are competing against Tree Revenants and Khainite Shadowstalkers who have lower movement but generally stronger overall mobility thanks to their in-built teleports - it just depends on what you can fit and what you need, really, but I'd personally go with the Shadowstalkers in most lists provided I've got the extra 5 points and ally slot spare.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Jaskier

[Frowny]

I see what you mean. What are people generally doing for battleline in living city? I think my damage dealers will be a big monster hero and maybe 2 units of folulminators. But then i still need 3 x battleline. Irondrakes have potential but then i need a dwarf general and can't put my useful command traits on the big general. Most other things just seem like crappy objective holders for the back line without much difference

[Marcvs]

3 hours ago, Frowny said:

I see what you mean. What are people generally doing for battleline in living city? I think my damage dealers will be a big monster hero and maybe 2 units of folulminators. But then i still need 3 x battleline. Irondrakes have potential but then i need a dwarf general and can't put my useful command traits on the big general. Most other things just seem like crappy objective holders for the back line without much difference

My reasoning on battlelines in living city, simplifying a bit, goes like this: do I want a double reinforced unit of sisters of the watch/irondrakes (and want to take the corresponding general)? -> if no -> take 3 unit of 10 dreadspears -> do I have some leftover points -> upgrade one to ironbreakers

[Thugmullet]

2 hours ago, Marcvs said:

My reasoning on battlelines in living city, simplifying a bit, goes like this: do I want a double reinforced unit of sisters of the watch/irondrakes (and want to take the corresponding general)? -> if no -> take 3 unit of 10 dreadspears -> do I have some leftover points -> upgrade one to ironbreakers

Haha yes. THIS. exactly. You only forgot to add the other end of the equation. Which is.. Am I 5 to 10 points over. Yes. Then downgrade dreadspears to Freeguild guard 😁

[Maturin]

Hey guys,

Quick question. Does "Hunters of the Hidden Paths" count as having moved for a unit benefiting from it ? Might be fun to set up Irondrakes or sisters that way.
Also is there a way for LC units to reroll ones ? 4 fulminators hit hard but I miss the Knight Azyros ability ...

[NauticalSoup]

3 hours ago, Maturin said:

Hey guys,

Quick question. Does "Hunters of the Hidden Paths" count as having moved for a unit benefiting from it ? Might be fun to set up Irondrakes or sisters that way.
Also is there a way for LC units to reroll ones ? 4 fulminators hit hard but I miss the Knight Azyros ability ...

It is not a move. This has been a chief mechanism to deploy these units for a long time.

Afaik there is no way to get a melee reroll ones to-hit on a coalition stormcast in living cities.

[Maturin]

So today, I played at 1500 points of LC against a Vyrkos Soulblight list.

My list was a bit weird :

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Grand Strategy: Bastions of Hope
- Triumphs:
LEADERS
Anointed on Flamespyre Phoenix (290)
- Artefact: Spear of the Hunt
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Command Trait: Druid of the Everspring - Ironoak Skin
- Artefact: Deepmire Cloak
Knight-Incantor (125)
UNITS
3 x Demigryph Knights (175)
- Cavalry Halberd
3 x Demigryph Knights (175)
- Cavalry Halberd
10 x Eternal Guard (125)
2 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (230)
CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord
ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Artefact

His list was :

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
LEADERS
Prince Vhordrai (455)
Radukar the Beast (315)
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- General
UNITS
10 x Deathrattle Skeletons (85)
10 x Deathrattle Skeletons (85)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
1 x Vargskyr (115)

We played "Marking Territory". I deployed everything on my left flank with the Flamespyre on the middle and refused the right flank. He won the the initative but gave me first round.

I chose the mission tactics that requires three units to run ( Knight, Freeguild Gen and Demigryphs). Hero phase, I managed to cast Ironoak on the Flamespyre and it wasn't dispelled (I think that's why I managed to win).

I did nothing with my Shemtek attacks.

On the middle board, the Spyre managed to charge the Prince, Bella and Radukar (charge of 7). I didn't manage to kill Bella on the charge, left her at 2 wounds, despite having finest hour and +1 to hit with the command.
On the left flank, my two fulminators killed three blood knights. The 5 should have died but I forgot to attack with the dracoths.

During his turn 1, he cast the spell that makes a unit take as much MW as its run charge, moved u^his skellies to block the way for the incoming gryphs, removed bella from the fight, did three wounds on the fulmis and put my phoenix to 6 wounds. He brang the Vargskyr  to the Spyrefight, but his three heroes failed to kill it thus didn't won adequate tactics. He also invoked 10 direwolves in my back field they failed his charge. I killed the remaining blood knights.
 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Maturin

[Maturin]

Then I Won iniative, failed to cast anything, so couldn't heal the Spire. Shemtek shooting didn't do anything again.

I moved the demigryphs aiming for a charge on the heroes locked with the Phoenix. Moved my heroes on the left flank in order to not be taken in a pincher move by the wolves behind me, got the Eternal Guards out of the woods to go protect the objective.

I managed to charge the Demis in his heroes, the fulmis killed bella with their shooting attack and charged the Prince who killed one of them with his stomping attack.
My Gryph Knights sadly didn't do much on the charge (halberds). He killed the Spire with his prince during my turn, which was then at 6 Wounds.

With Bella dead, his magic phase wasn't impressive and I dispelled him. I made my lone fulmi go to to 2+ using the command and he tanked!

Vargskyr was down to three wounds and Radukar to 6 but he charged them in my heroes anyway. Unleash hell from the Hurricanum killed the Vargskyr, Radukar came into contact of the Hurricanum and Knight Incantor but he made mistake that would allow me to pile in my Freeguild general in contact and removing enough wounds for me to kill him next turn. His direwolves didn't do much on my eternal guard. We just did the heroic phase of my turn 3 and he conceded.

I've made a few mistakes in the game, but the phoenix tanking his heroes during a whole turn1 was the best move I made. I managed to tie around 1000points with 290! I don't own a painted Frostheart but I imagine they're even more durable especially with the Ironoak artisan trait. I really like LC's signature CA, but you all know here how usefull it is, right

Radukar can be quite powerful. He made a whopping 16 MWs over two turns, turning the Gryphs into a pulp!

Edited January 29, 2022 by Maturin

[Maturin]

By the way guys, I've been looking up but didn't find a real answer about "VErdant Blessing". Can we use it in LC since it's said that all sylvaneth wizard know that spell ? What about the Warsong revenant ? In short, is there a way for us to pop an awakened wyldwood and some dryads ?

[Thugmullet]

1 hour ago, Maturin said:

By the way guys, I've been looking up but didn't find a real answer about "VErdant Blessing". Can we use it in LC since it's said that all sylvaneth wizard know that spell ? What about the Warsong revenant ? In short, is there a way for us to pop an awakened wyldwood and some dryads ?

No basically, you can't use verdant blessing. It's not surposed to be on any warscroll at all. It's listed in the Sylvaneth book as a seperate spell and is not even in there spell lore as such. It's a spell all Sylvaneth wizards know IF they are in sylvaneth. So you don't have access to it at all. It's an app mistake.

You can get trees 2 ways in LC.

1)Treelord ancient warscroll ability... As it's not a spell.

2)you can kill a unit with Alerielles spell.

And that's it I believe.

If you get any trees out however the Branchwraith can summon dryads from them as her spell is warscroll and does not require anything other than trees on the table.

Pretty sure that's all we can do in LC.

It's fun, but it's not going to win any games.

[Doko]

16 hours ago, Maturin said:

So today, I played at 1500 points of LC against a Vyrkos Soulblight list.

My list was a bit weird :

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City
- Mortal Realm: Ghyran
- Grand Strategy: Bastions of Hope
- Triumphs:
LEADERS
Anointed on Flamespyre Phoenix (290)
- Artefact: Spear of the Hunt
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)
Freeguild General (100)
- General
- Command Trait: Druid of the Everspring - Ironoak Skin
- Artefact: Deepmire Cloak
Knight-Incantor (125)
UNITS
3 x Demigryph Knights (175)
- Cavalry Halberd
3 x Demigryph Knights (175)
- Cavalry Halberd
10 x Eternal Guard (125)
2 x Dracothian Guard Fulminators (230)
CORE BATTALIONS
*Warlord
ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS
Artefact

His list was :

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Lineage: Vyrkos Dynasty
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
LEADERS
Prince Vhordrai (455)
Radukar the Beast (315)
Belladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)
- General
UNITS
10 x Deathrattle Skeletons (85)
10 x Deathrattle Skeletons (85)
5 x Blood Knights (195)
1 x Vargskyr (115)

We played "Marking Territory". I deployed everything on my left flank with the Flamespyre on the middle and refused the right flank. He won the the initative but gave me first round.

I chose the mission tactics that requires three units to run ( Knight, Freeguild Gen and Demigryphs). Hero phase, I managed to cast Ironoak on the Flamespyre and it wasn't dispelled (I think that's why I managed to win).

I did nothing with my Shemtek attacks.

On the middle board, the Spyre managed to charge the Prince, Bella and Radukar (charge of 7). I didn't manage to kill Bella on the charge, left her at 2 wounds, despite having finest hour and +1 to hit with the command.
On the left flank, my two fulminators killed three blood knights. The 5 should have died but I forgot to attack with the dracoths.

During his turn 1, he cast the spell that makes a unit take as much MW as its run charge, moved u^his skellies to block the way for the incoming gryphs, removed bella from the fight, did three wounds on the fulmis and put my phoenix to 6 wounds. He brang the Vargskyr  to the Spyrefight, but his three heroes failed to kill it thus didn't won adequate tactics. He also invoked 10 direwolves in my back field they failed his charge. I killed the remaining blood knights.
 

Hnnn your friend is ignoring new coherency with wolfs,wolfs have a base bigger than 1" and need be in ranks to keep coherency,cant have 10 wolfs in lane as in your pics or die 5 with coherency

[Maturin]

6 minutes ago, Doko said:

Hnnn your friend is ignoring new coherency with wolfs,wolfs have a base bigger than 1" and need be in ranks to keep coherency,cant have 10 wolfs in lane as in your pics or die 5 with coherency

Yes, he realized that after the picture was taken, we're both learning 3.0

[Doko]

I know,its stupid and that new coherency must be deleted. I loved wolfs in 2.0 and was my best unit in the book......now in 3.0 only due to new coherency they are useless because its imposible attack with more than 60% or so of models

[Jaskier]

A Living City list with 4 Fulminators and 4 Stormdrake Guard just took 1st place at the LVO (it finished in the top 8 of the 180 player event, qualifying it for the subsequent 8 person finals tournament which it then won.) It bears mentioning that a lot of GW's balance ethos centres around what is taking out the top spots at GTs, and seeing as the LVO is arguably the biggest 'partnered' GW tournament in the world, it's a safe bet Living City is about to get a whole lot of scrutiny from the rules team. You can find the full list on AOS Coach's Twitter if you're curious. It's mean. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Jaskier