AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Archibald]

I don't think you can return a fourth Mortek Guard with Invocation of Nagash, because the number of models (invocation adds a +1 here) is caped at a combined wound characteristic of 3. So still max 3 Mortek or 1 Death Rider sadly.:/

 

[Nagashfan]

1 hour ago, That Guy said:

He doesn’t, people always panic when their beloved character is changed in any sort of way. His viability has been shifted more towards support necromancy, while being less survivable himself. We will have to see how that goes in matchups that truely try to focus Nagash down. I’ve seen a few BR’s so far and none where he lost. I’ve yet to test him myself. We desperately need an faq for Nagash’s Supreme Lord ability though. The interpretation of it is wild in some cases, especially in OBR. But yea the Gothizzar returning 2 for every 4+ is very strong indeed.  I enjoy using Mortarchs especially Arkhan with Nagash. All of them have invocations for multiple units that get boosted by Supreme Lord. It’s one big happy family that way. I do hope they come with clarifications rather sooner than later though.

Yeah bringing back 8 dudes per mortek unit while they ignore one rend, can reroll saves and/or plus one to ward save is pretty good… plus still heals Arkhan….

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, Nagashfan said:

Yeah bringing back 8 dudes per mortek unit while they ignore one rend, can reroll saves and/or plus one to ward save is pretty good… plus still heals Arkhan….

Yes indeed. In case of Arkhan, he is also a monster. Making it easier to get the bonus tactics VPs. In some cases you could even take a 3rd minor hero and transform into a monster. Including a Gothizzar also means adding a monster. There’s still many ways to play the game. Yes, Nagash dieing sooner is rough, but if they don’t remove other threats early enough, you keep scoring. Before it was a race to wipe your  scoring units off the table asap, while keeping Nagash busy/ answer with your own gods. Now it’s about wiping Nagash asap. But this shift in focus, also opens up a different kind of play for us. Do i think his previous iteration was stronger for us? Yes slightly, but i like his current iteration more and the way it plays is more fitting for what Nagash is, The Great Necromancer. Not an unshiftable warlord like Archaon, which is supposed to be an in your face character. Nagash is definitely also well equiped for close combat together with arcane bolts, but he is still supposed to be a wizardy god.

Edited December 26, 2021 by That Guy

[Sception]

Supreme lord is so confusing.  It either seems to do too much or nothing at all, it's unclear what rolls it can or should reroll.  It's really just a mess of an ability.  If it doesn't work on invocation of nagash than it doesn't work on 3/4 of the abilities that it should, as almost all abilities that return slain models to death units are written based on total wounds characteristic rather than a set number of models.  If it does work on invocation then suddenly boneshapers can restore slain models to morghast units and the like, and that doesn't seem right either.  It basically needs explicit dev clarification for each and every individual ability it could conceivably be used with, making it extremely obnoxious.

[That Guy]

58 minutes ago, Sception said:

Supreme lord is so confusing.  It either seems to do too much or nothing at all, it's unclear what rolls it can or should reroll.  It's really just a mess of an ability.  If it doesn't work on invocation of nagash than it doesn't work on 3/4 of the abilities that it should, as almost all abilities that return slain models to death units are written based on total wounds characteristic rather than a set number of models.  If it does work on invocation then suddenly boneshapers can restore slain models to morghast units and the like, and that doesn't seem right either.  It basically needs explicit dev clarification for each and every individual ability it could conceivably be used with, making it extremely obnoxious.

Yeah, I 100% agree. They could put a restriction on it that it only affects a single wound model or 2/3 wound, whatever they intend. This restriction would have to be placed in the Supreme lord ability. So for example:
If this unit is on the battlefield when you use an ability that returns slain models to a friendly DEATH unit, you can either re-roll the dice that determines the number of slain models returned to that unit or add 1 to the number of slain models that are returned to that unit, with a maximum wound characteristic of 1.

1 of the big reasons I think this ability is intended to work with the 1 wound restriction, is because technically you can already see it like this, except right now your interpretation can be normally you can revive 0 morghast, now you can revive 1 morghast. So instead of the max wound char of 1 it would be 6 in that case. Right now you can see it as an adaptive ability based on what unit you revive units to. I strongly doubt it's how they intend it especially when it comes to units you normally can't revive anything to. Another reason why I think it only affects 1 wound models is the fact that they would have to litterally rewrite the Supreme Lord ability to be like the Invocation in order to make it work fair if you are allowed to bring back multi wound models. If you just turn my example in a maximum wound characteristic of 3 for example, now it's just better to have Deathriders around, because it's 3 times as effective. 

If they intend for you to be able to revive Deathriders for example it has to be written like: 
If this unit is on the battlefield when you use an ability that returns slain models to a friendly DEATH unit, you can either re-roll the dice that determines the number of slain models returned to that unit or you can return an extra number of slain models to that unit that have a combined wound characteristic of 3 or less. 

 

[Sception]

3 hours ago, That Guy said:

If this unit is on the battlefield when you use an ability that returns slain models to a friendly DEATH unit, you can either re-roll the dice that determines the number of slain models returned to that unit or add 1 to the number of slain models that are returned to that unit, with a maximum wound characteristic of 1.

this isn't a very good solution either, as it doesn't work with a number of things it maybe should (NH abilities that specifically return spirit host bases, etc).

Honestly, the ability should probably just be removed outright and replaced with something self contained instead of something that tries to interact with dozens of other rules that don't all work the same way and weren't written with this in mind.

[That Guy]

21 minutes ago, Sception said:

this isn't a very good solution either, as it doesn't work with a number of things it maybe should (NH abilities that specifically return spirit host bases, etc).

Honestly, the ability should probably just be removed outright and replaced with something self contained instead of something that tries to interact with dozens of other rules that don't all work the same way and weren't written with this in mind.

Yeah, or a write up per faction. But that would be a mess beyond recognition. Goodluck GW! You dun effed up this one.

[Nagashfan]

7 hours ago, Sception said:

Supreme lord is so confusing.  It either seems to do too much or nothing at all, it's unclear what rolls it can or should reroll.  It's really just a mess of an ability.  If it doesn't work on invocation of nagash than it doesn't work on 3/4 of the abilities that it should, as almost all abilities that return slain models to death units are written based on total wounds characteristic rather than a set number of models.  If it does work on invocation then suddenly boneshapers can restore slain models to morghast units and the like, and that doesn't seem right either.  It basically needs explicit dev clarification for each and every individual ability it could conceivably be used with, making it extremely obnoxious.

I think it works as if u could bring a model back u can add one to that, so u could never bring a morghast back but u can bring two deathriders or 4 mortek

[That Guy]

So… what about Endless Spells. Nagash knows all spells from a lore, but the Endless Spells require a Ossiarch Bonereapers unit in order to cast them. On top of that, those spells now affect Nagash since he’s not an Ossiarch Bonereaper. Same for all the other Death Faction Endless Spells?

[Sception]

iirc pre-OBR death faction endless spells explicitly allowed nagash to cast them.  OBR were the exception, because Nagash gained the OBR keyword in that book.  Now that he doesn't get the keyword anymore, I imagine the OBR endless spells will need to be updated.  Again.

[Honk]

On 12/30/2021 at 5:44 PM, That Guy said:

Same for all the other Death Faction Endless Spells?

Gravelords don‘t have endless spells and on the FEC scrolls Nagash is specifically included …

[Wordy9th]

In light of seeing OBRs awful win rates when not playing Nagash, I have a bright idea.

Until a new tome drops, let them use normal command abilities in addition to everything they already have. No other changes, they still use RDP.

 

 

 

[papary]

We’re getting a white dwarf update. Hopefully that will offer some helpful changes

[That Guy]

20 minutes ago, papary said:

We’re getting a white dwarf update. Hopefully that will offer some helpful changes

It is time for this glorious moment to happen. Hopefully this will push us out of this 3rd edition limbo.

[Lord Veshnakar]

When is this issue coming out?

 

[AaronWilson]

This is pretty exciting, can't wait to see what it is

[Sception]

Most of these updates have been super minor, so I wouldn't expect too much.  It'll be nice to see whatever we do get, but we already got the biggest fix we can reasonably hope for pre-battletome in the rdp errata.

[Btimmy]

Free space on the bingo board is a new heroic action to generate rdp i think. 

[Sception]

No, the free space is a unique grand stratagem that is basically a worse version of one of the generic ones.

[Wordy9th]

Are Kavalos Deathriders really bad for their points, or do they occupy a good role as much needed mobility piece in an otherwise tanky slow army?

[AaronWilson]

3 minutes ago, Wordy9th said:

Are Kavalos Deathriders really bad for their points, or do they occupy a good role as much needed mobility piece in an otherwise tanky slow army?

I took 2 units to a tournament in October and I went 3-2. 

I really, really liked the speed they gave the list. Their output is definitely low for their points but I think their speed is something really, really welcome in the list. 15" move with UA and a +1 to the charge roll means they get places you just can't get without them in the list. 

[Scurvydog]

On 1/9/2022 at 7:40 PM, That Guy said:

It is time for this glorious moment to happen. Hopefully this will push us out of this 3rd edition limbo.

So from what I gave seen of the new rules, it looks pretty cool actually, even though it might not boost OBR to Tier 1 levels.

Heroic Actions:

Relentless Leadership: Free OBR command without using a RDP, no roll needed.

Necromantic Mastery: Mortisan only. If first spell cast by mortisan hero is a success, it can not be unbound

 

New commands:

Unstoppable advance: Same as before basically

Reknit Constructs: _Basically heroic recovery for any OBR unit. Used in the end of movement phase and unit must have been stationary and outside of 3" engagement. Can heal or resurrect d3 wounds.

Unflinching coordination: Used in combat phase by a hero, a nearby unit that has not yet fought can fight right after the hero. Basically like the new ability SGB vamps on foot got, just costs 1 RDP here, but can be used by any hero.

 

Grand strategy

Does not matter, requires that deathriders or mortek guard are full size unit at end of combat, pointless next to hold the line (why do GW make these?).

New tactics

Seem good though, all 3 will be doable in many lists:

Make a charge with a deathrider unit

Use reknit command on 2 units and bring back at least 1 model in each (automatic for 2 mortek guard units).

Kill hero or monster. If destroyed by a harvester it gives +1 point.

 

No earth shattering changes that will really bring them up. The continued lack of access to the generic commands will hurt them too much still, no reposition, unleash hell, reroll charges etc is just too much to miss out on. Still no stacking of multiple commands, no bludgeon + shield wall for example.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Scurvydog

[That Guy]

8 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

No earth shattering changes that will really bring them up. The continued lack of access to the generic commands will hurt them too much still, no reposition, unleash hell, reroll charges etc is just too much to miss out on. Still no stacking of multiple commands, no bludgeon + shield wall for example.

You pretty much covered it all and I fully agree with your statements of still lacking too much. We also got some Open Play rules(LOL) I wish that revive half a unit of deathriders on a 4+ was an option in matched play, but oh well. Probably the 1 guy that plays that with his friend will enjoy. It is nice that we gained some utility command abilities. The last one actually also works in the opponents combat phase, which allows us to really mess with their fight order. Mir Kainan, Katakros and both Liege-Kavalos all like that one a lot I think. As for the heroic actions, they solved that we didn't have Heroic Willpower, but they haven't solved that we don't need it at all. The Necromancy action is a nice touch, PON on Kainan unstoppable is pretty sweet. If only Arkhan was a Mortisan, but we can't have an unstoppable curse of years now can we. 

 

TL;DR:
Overall a nice little bump up to our already existing playstyle.
Literally nothing will change in our playstyle, we have some few extra options to score. We can do slightly better with magic. We have some combat shenanigans, but it will compete with Bludgeon, shield wall and many other combat command abilities. I guess it gives us some extra choice. It's not even a band-aid solution, because literally none of our problems have been solved with this. It's just a little bump up in what we were already decent at. Also I'll wait till GW finally removes Hold the Line, before even considering that Grand Strategy. What a joke. Fill the salt banks. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by That Guy

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

So from what I gave seen of the new rules, it looks pretty cool actually, even though it might not boost OBR to Tier 1 levels.

Heroic Actions:

Relentless Leadership: Free OBR command without using a RDP, no roll needed.

Necromantic Mastery: Mortisan only. If first spell cast by mortisan hero is a success, it can not be unbound

 

New commands:

Unstoppable advance: Same as before basically

Reknit Constructs: _Basically heroic recovery for any OBR unit. Used in the end of movement phase and unit must have been stationary and outside of 3" engagement. Can heal or resurrect d3 wounds.

Unflinching coordination: Used in combat phase by a hero, a nearby unit that has not yet fought can fight right after the hero. Basically like the new ability SGB vamps on foot got, just costs 1 RDP here, but can be used by any hero.

 

Grand strategy

Does not matter, requires that deathriders or mortek guard are full size unit at end of combat, pointless next to hold the line (why do GW make these?).

New tactics

Seem good though, all 3 will be doable in many lists:

Make a charge with a deathrider unit

Use reknit command on 2 units and bring back at least 1 model in each (automatic for 2 mortek guard units).

Kill hero or monster. If destroyed by a harvester it gives +1 point.

 

No earth shattering changes that will really bring them up. The continued lack of access to the generic commands will hurt them too much still, no reposition, unleash hell, reroll charges etc is just too much to miss out on. Still no stacking of multiple commands, no bludgeon + shield wall for example.

This is honestly a lot better than I expected. I didn't think they would touch command abilities and heroic actions, both of which were areas OBR got shafted in previously. The battle tactics will also definitely boost the viability of the army for tournament play.

[Rogz]

Rerolling charges in some incarnation would be lovely - i failed a charge with some Morghast last night by rolling a 4 on 3D6... ☹️