AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[ogarrah]

1 hour ago, AngryPanda said:

I haven’t gotten my hands on the Anvil of Apotheosis rules yet, but from what I do know is that Ossiarchs have much more efficient and consistent  means to heal themselves/restore models. Unless you’re going for a narrative play style and not a competitive one, I’d drop the Orb of Shaping spell and figure out another means to improve his capabilities. 

I second that, also, 160 points is WAY to much for this guy.

[Talas]

Thank you both. I suppose all of the AoA heroes are overcosted by design compared to the available heroes. I'll change it to fullfill another role... maybe a source of mortal wounds or just another support for Mortek Guard, there's a command ability that gives +1 to hit.

[Sception]

You might want to start by envisioning a narrative roll within the Ossiarch cast system.  For instance, Harvesters collect bone, and Boneshapers build new bodies and structures using that physical raw material.  Likewise, Soulreapers collect souls, and Soulmasons create new ossiarch souls out of that spiritual raw material.  The narrative roles of these units help shape their mechanical rules on the tabletop.

If you're designing a new mortisan unit, you have a couple options.  You could either take an existing type and design a logical variant - for instance a mounted soulreaper to chase down and harvest the souls of fleeing enemies.  Alternatively, you could come up with an entirely new kind of mortisan, but in that case you'd want to start by identifying a logical narrative role not covered by the existing mortisan units, and sketch out how a mortisan sub-caste created to fill that role might work.

Maybe an diviner who detects and follows the magical leylines that run beneath the realms, in order to determine the best path of ossiarch expansion, where they should build their fortifications, and the best places to fight - where the arcane energies of the realm will be in their favor?  Such a character might have spells or abilities that interact with realm rules, scenery, or endless spells, or they might be able to buff friendly spellcasting rolls or debuff those of the enemy.  Unfortunately, none of the existing spells, prayers, or abilities in the AoA rules fit with that particular concept...

 

For a non-mortisan example that ~mostly~ falls within the AoA rules as printed, I've been tooling around with a 'Liege Mortek' concept.  I could imagine such as just an infantry version of the Liege Kavalos,  but I'd like to give it more of a place in the army, a distinctive role to make it more than just a Liege without a steed.  So where I see a Liege Mortek as more of a commander for armies of conquest, fitting with their aggressive command ability, and using their mount for both an elevated position from which to view the battlefield and for speed to bring their support wherever it's needed in the line, the Liege Mortek is instead a defensive commander, a castellan created to order the defense of Ossiarch fortifications.  Why don't they have a steed?  From their position on the battlements they already have an elevated view, and a mount would only get in the way.  So now I have a narrative role for my Liege Mortek - they're not just a Liege Kavalos without a steed, they're a different kind of liege created for a different kind of battle where a steed would be counterproductive.  And that slightly fleshed out narrative role can go on to inform other mechanical decisions.

So with that concept in mind...

Liege Mortek

Destiny Points: Champion level - this is a generic infantry hero.
Ancestry: Ossiarch Bonereapers, duh.  5dp
Armory: Hammer and Shield.  Hammer seems thematic for a defensive fortress guy  3dp
Archetype: Commander with Lead the Defense CA, informed by the hero's defensive narrative role
Bestial Companion: none
Enhancements: extra armor dp2, weapon master dp2, ferocity dp2 - reproducing the existing Liege's statline
Abilities: Liege.  No official points value here.  Closest in Concept is Consummate Commander for +1 CP per game, where Liege is effectively +1 per game turn, so by all rights should be more.  On the other hand, I don't think RDP are supposed to be valued quite as highly as CP, since OBR units are kind of expensive for their base abilities, which seems to imply an assumption that a few RDP are being spent to bring them up to that cost.  So for the moment I'm going to call the Liege keyword a 6dp ability, more then consummate commander, but only by a little.

If we ever see an official dp value for Liege, or if my opponents feel it needs to be valued higher, than I can drop one or both of the hero's melee attack enhancements, which are mostly just there to match the Liege Kavalos's profile, and to fill out points so this homebrew hero doesn't end up being a more efficient source of RDP than existing OBR heroes.

As is, 6dp just so happens to round the character out to the Champion level destiny point limit.  Which puts the character at 200 points, same as a Liege Kavalos, which is where I'd like him to be regardless.  A bit weaker, certainly - slower, fewer wounds, no mount attacks, but I'm not trying to create a homebrew character that's better than, or even as good as, a Liege Kavalos.  And the defensive CA gives the Liege Mortek a distinct mechanical role so it's not just a worse Liege Kavalos either.

Of course, Lead the Defense, particularly when combined with the bonuses from Petrifex, could be somewhat unfun and abusive.  But at this point I actually half expect a nerf to petrifex, probably in the form of swapping out the +1 save for ignore rend -1, so that combo wouldn't be an issue anyway, and in the mean time I'd be running them with Null Myriad anyway.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Sception

[El Syf]

This may be old news but has anyone realized how disgusting Nagash becomes in Petrifex if you keep a Leige Kavalos with Helm of the ordained near him?

+1 to attacks (leiges ability, +1 to hit (from the helm), -1 rend (from the petrifex ability) and Nagash's own command ability to reroll hit and save rolls of one.

I've just made this list which isn't optimum I know but should be good fun hopefully.

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Legion: Petrifex Elite

Leaders
Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (880)
Liege-Kavalos (200)
- Artefact: Helm of the Ordained
Mortisan Boneshaper (130)
- General
- Command Trait: Mighty Archaeossian
- Artefact: Godbone Armour
- Lore of Mortisans: Arcane Command
Mortisan Soulmason (140)
- Lore of Mortisans: Empower Nadirite Weapons

Battleline
10 x Mortek Guard (130)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2x Soulcleaver Greatblades
10 x Mortek Guard (130)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
10 x Mortek Guard (130)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Battalions
Mortek Shield-corps (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Nightmare Predator (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 63

[ACBelMutie]

Don't play Soulmanson with Nagash. You have the Boneshaper for the batalion requirements, so now you can put 10 more corpses in the table.

Greetings

[Sception]

39 minutes ago, ACBelMutie said:

Don't play Soulmanson with Nagash. You have the Boneshaper for the batalion requirements, so now you can put 10 more corpses in the table.

This.  definitely don't need the mason in this list, where you will need all the bodies you can get.

The 10 points shaved also lets you upgrade the predator to a pendulum, so that nagash doesn't suffer the -1 casting penalty from bound spells if you happen to botch a dispel roll.

Even with the crown, I still think nagash's personal damage output is maybe not enough to be reliable on his own, and IMO you'd probably be better off dropping the shaper and battalion for yet more morteks, even at the cost of losing the artefact.

[ACBelMutie]

I don't think he has the batalion for the extra relic, it's about the extra command point (1-3 per round). 

I'm working in some different builds, but I'm a bit stuck because Morteks are so good that it's difficult to drop Morteks for any other unit hahaha. 

Greetings 

[Cargo Cult]

I paint really slowly due to lots of other calls on my time. I’m so happy I’ve finally got these guys ready to play.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Cargo Cult

[ACBelMutie]

I was thinking about new lists using Katakros (I don't have the miniature to play with it yet) and I thought about this list:

 

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers

- Legion: Petrifex Elite

Leaders

Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis (500)

- General

Mortisan Soulmason (140)

- Artefact: Godbone Armour

- Lore of Mortisans: Empower Nadirite Weapons

Mortisan Soulmason (140)

- Artefact: Throne of Dzendt

- Lore of Mortisans: Drain Vitality

Battleline

20 x Mortek Guard (260)

- Nadirite Blade and Shield

20 x Mortek Guard (260)

- Nadirite Blade and Shield

10 x Mortek Guard (130)

- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Artillery

Mortek Crawler (200)

Mortek Crawler (200)

Battalions

Mortek Shield-corps (120)

Total: 1950 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 1

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 104

5 Drops

8 Command Points per turn

4 cast/dispel

 

It's focused in getting a lof ot Command Points (8+ and 2 extra of the batalion skill) and heavy shooting (2x Mortek Crawler). However, I feel I lack bodies on the table. Should I drop 1 Crawler for more Morteks of 5 Deathriders? What do you think about it?

Greetings

 

[CorvoMaltes]

1 hour ago, ACBelMutie said:

I was thinking about new lists using Katakros (I don't have the miniature to play with it yet) and I thought about this list:

 

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers

- Legion: Petrifex Elite

Leaders

Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis (500)

- General

Mortisan Soulmason (140)

- Artefact: Godbone Armour

- Lore of Mortisans: Empower Nadirite Weapons

Mortisan Soulmason (140)

- Artefact: Throne of Dzendt

- Lore of Mortisans: Drain Vitality

Battleline

20 x Mortek Guard (260)

- Nadirite Blade and Shield

20 x Mortek Guard (260)

- Nadirite Blade and Shield

10 x Mortek Guard (130)

- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Artillery

Mortek Crawler (200)

Mortek Crawler (200)

Battalions

Mortek Shield-corps (120)

Total: 1950 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 1

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 104

5 Drops

8 Command Points per turn

4 cast/dispel

 

It's focused in getting a lof ot Command Points (8+ and 2 extra of the batalion skill) and heavy shooting (2x Mortek Crawler). However, I feel I lack bodies on the table. Should I drop 1 Crawler for more Morteks of 5 Deathriders? What do you think about it?

Greetings

 

Nice list, but sadly Katakros can´t be Petrifex, so some of his abilities won´t work on your units. And I´m not sure if any other units has to take the artifact.

[ACBelMutie]

17 minutes ago, CorvoMaltes said:

Nice list, but sadly Katakros can´t be Petrifex, so some of his abilities won´t work on your units. And I´m not sure if any other units has to take the artifact.

There's no problem about that. He uses his own skill to get the +1 save himself and +1 to hit for everybody, so he will save at 2+ in petrifex after the first ossiarch bonereapers turno. He can´t use the command hability of Petrifex Elite too, but that's not a big problem.

Greetings.

[Climb]

11 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

There's no problem about that. He uses his own skill to get the +1 save himself and +1 to hit for everybody, so he will save at 2+ in petrifex after the first ossiarch bonereapers turno. He can´t use the command hability of Petrifex Elite too, but that's not a big problem.

Greetings.

I've used katakros in a petrifex list and you're exactly right. The only thing that he doesn't do is give +1 save, but you get that from the faction anyway! The 5 relentless discipline points he gives as your general is absurd, regardless of subfaction

[CorvoMaltes]

5 hours ago, Climb said:

I've used katakros in a petrifex list and you're exactly right. The only thing that he doesn't do is give +1 save, but you get that from the faction anyway! The 5 relentless discipline points he gives as your general is absurd, regardless of subfaction

I´ll have to start saving for a Katakros model....

[El Syf]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/IzdxHDJErpTOVpVf.pdf

I give up. Really didn't think Petrifex were that broken if I'm honest.

[Bululu]

from +1 armor to repeat 1s on saves on MELEE ONLY thx for nothing,  i mean a "treat -1 rend as rend - " would be good enough nerf, this is not nerfing this is replace rule with nothing

[Heijoshin]

18 minutes ago, El Syf said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/IzdxHDJErpTOVpVf.pdf

I give up. Really didn't think Petrifex were that broken if I'm honest.

The change was to be expected. GW was bound to do something with this much fuss being kicked up by people. As for choosing RR 1's, well if you look at the GHB and the LRL BT, you see they've been adding lots of RR1's to things as basically a fallback when they don't really know what to do, but want something quick. It's not the end of the world by far and it's nice to see only point reductions to accomodate the change. And again, we still have Mortis P. if we want the crazy save, albeit with more nuance and thought behind positioning and using Katakros, which I am all for of. 

Only thing I didn't expect is the "melee" only part. That kinda sucks, but it is what it is. I just hope we can finally move onto being the boogie man and I can actually take PE without being seen as some kind of monster for it. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Heijoshin

[chosen_of_khaine]

Honestly, outside of being Mortis Praetorians to let Katakros hand out +1 saves, Petrifex Elite is probably still the best subfaction due to also having by FAR the best command ability in Bludgeon.

No more Nagash with a 2+ though...

[Bululu]

still that, should have been rr1 on all saves, not melee ones, wich you already do on mortek

[Bululu]

8 minutes ago, Heijoshin said:

The change was to be expected. GW was bound to do something with this much fuss being kicked up by people. As for choosing RR 1's, well if you look at the GHB and the LRL BT, you see they've been adding lots of RR1's to things as basically a fallback when they don't really know what to do, but want something quick. It's not the end of the world by far and it's nice to see only point reductions to accomodate the change. And again, we still have Mortis P. if we want the crazy save, albeit with more nuance and thought behind positioning and using Katakros, which I am all for of. 

Only thing I didn't expect is the "melee" only part. That kinda sucks, but it is what it is. I just hope we can finally move onto being the boogie man and I can actually take PE without being seen as some kind of monster for it. 

change yes, change for something useful not directly removal for basically nothing

[El Syf]

Cue the barrage of OBR stuff on ebay. Personally I was always of the opinion Nagash should have a 2+ save and Morghasts should have a 3+ save, even with the reduction in points I still think they need something else for most people to even consider fielding them.

[jhamslam]

The change to Petrfex was gonna happen. 3+ re rollable saves on a regenerating unit means reliably only -2 rend,  either in shooting or Mortal wounds can deal with Mortek Blobs reliably. Its not that its hard to deal with Petrifex blobs, its that some other armies basically dont stand a chance against 3+ re rollable saves across 60 or so wounds

 

[Sedraxis]

Shame they didn't turn it into something creative or conditional. Reroll save rolls of 1 in melee is the worst thing they could've gone with.

[Focus_Blast]

I think everyone saw a change to Petrifex Elite. The combination of a free Armor Save bonus as well as a extra rend (able to be added to nearly any unit as the Hekatos keyword can be used to activate it) are some of the most powerful bonuses across when compared to the sub-factions of most armies. The +1 Save rolls in particular required no strategy to make use of but were just a flat buff to everything.  

I agree with El Syf that some model should have better saves. Morghasts in particular, even with the reduced cost, could use some love. I used to use Arkhan with a Petrifex faction sometimes and I'm not gonna like his armor saving being a 4 up now.

All that being said, changing plus 1 save to rerolling 1's on saves (MELEE ONLY) does seem like an extremely lazy change.  I don't think the saves were even one of the biggest issues in isolation. It was the combination with the jacked up Stat lines on some of our warscrolls. Mortek Guard are off the power curve and making them +1 save when they were (as pointed out earlier) a cheap regenerating unit that with a good save already that could reroll that save, that extra suitability just pushed them way off base compared to the base unit of most other Armies and when compared to the other Ossiarch Subfactions.

I can understand it but that doesn't make me any happier about it.
 

[Malakithe]

Petrifex is still going to be the best. Using Chadakros in his legion is hugely conditional on him not taking a few wounds to keep his range up.

[Malakithe]

But at least the bigger model units came down a bit