Old World Gods?

[Ashendant]

10 hours ago, xking said:

You know, I think there should be a section for demigods. Like Morathi and the six smiths, we even get to see one of the smiths in the "Hamilcar champion of the Gods" novel.

Problem with that is that both Stormcast Eternals and Greater Daemons are called demigods. I don't object to the creation of a Demigod section, I just don't know where to put the line exactly.

[Ashendant]

8 hours ago, Whitefang said:

Yeah you are right. I just mean those “old ones” and “Sotek” seem to be “star gods” now

They have introduced a new type of gods called Old Ones that seemed to rule over the Mortal Realms before Sigmar. We don't know if they are the same entities as the Warhammer World or not.

[wander]

I'd say the Exalted Greater Daemons are on the fence for that, normal greater daemons are called that, though I don't think a garden variety one really is. Same with the SCE are called it in fluff, though that's just bigging them up as Sigmar's trump card and the main 'heroes' of the game.

Archaon and Tamurkhan have to be up there though, Archaon has destroyed realities and Tamurkhan is not someone to mess around with. Gameplay-wise, I put anything around 450+ pts as a force to be reckoned with and actual demigod/god status.

Order has Alarielle as a full Goddess, Morathi is a demigoddess, Lord Kroak is pretty much a powerhouse with godly power. Then you got the Eidolons of the Idoneth, which are on the fence with me, though are linked to Mathlann, who is a god.

[Ashendant]

37 minutes ago, xking said:

That's a problem, But there has to be something.  The six smiths are clearly deific, based on what was seen in the Hamilcar novel.

I've decided to deal with that kind of stuff "later" after the split. Hopefully then I will have more feedback and have fixed a lot of issues that are confusing.

[Whitefang]

6 hours ago, Ashendant said:

They have introduced a new type of gods called Old Ones that seemed to rule over the Mortal Realms before Sigmar. We don't know if they are the same entities as the Warhammer World or not.

Well to me the new “old ones” seem to be more Cthulhu like, not the same things with Lizardmen’s traditional “old ones”.

By Seraphon battletome, traditional old ones are hinted to be constellation of stars now.

[Ashendant]

11 hours ago, xking said:

Any updates on the split?

We received this bit of info last week. It is scheduled for this summer.

[Juicy]

In the end times ulric spark got destroyed by teclis. Ulric got a part of him free and fuses into a human soldier (forgot his name but can look this up) to enchant his power with a spark of ulrics godlike strengt. The other part of ulric his spark enchanted the amberwizard from the end times while he was losing a duel against some chaos sorcerer. Ulric talks to this wizard and even attacks archaon. Ulrics mistrust for elves and bad temper are nicely written. 

[Cèsar de Quart]

On 7/20/2019 at 1:17 PM, Juicy said:

In the end times ulric spark got destroyed by teclis. Ulric got a part of him free and fuses into a human soldier (forgot his name but can look this up) to enchant his power with a spark of ulrics godlike strengt. The other part of ulric his spark enchanted the amberwizard from the end times while he was losing a duel against some chaos sorcerer. Ulric talks to this wizard and even attacks archaon. Ulrics mistrust for elves and bad temper are nicely written. 

Yes, but it's been established many times over that warp entities are begotten by belief. If enough people believe in a divine concept, it becomes real. It may have many shapes depending on who looks, kinda like the shape of the Vorlon in Babylon 5. The Chaos gods function in this way.

The problem here is that we have the Incarnates, who don't seem to be dependant on this, and then a myriad of other beings. Are they also like Sigmar and Alarielle, people from a bygone era? Or are they manifestations of people's belief in them?

We know Sigmar and Nagash and the rest, while they may not be the same beings they had been before, retain the memories and consciousness of their old selfs (selves?). But what about Morghur, whose soul may have survived and become a being of power, a minor god? If so, then what about Kurnoth, who should be dead? Is he a manifestation in the Warp?

This dychotomy makes it difficult to speculate about this.

My take is that the Incarnates are different because of their condition as embodiements of a specific wind of magic. So much warp energy was wrapped in their insides that they simply became massive warp hurricanes of their own. When the world ended, they remained as Warp entities, maybe manifest in the void, maybe not.

So, someone like Sigmar has many different faces depending on who worships him (Nagash is stated to be exactly so, which makes it difficult to treat him as a character, but very interesting to have as a worldbuilding device). Sigmar can be seen and known as the old Sigmar we know of, the Heldenhammer, the God-King, the god of statecraft and war, of thunder and big hammers, essentially the god of ordered, hyerarchical civilization, or as, I don't know, Asir the Victorious to the Aesjing, Asimir Hammerhand to the Semnones, Bellon the Great in the Evercity of Mirmas, all war gods; Father Or among the Red Head Tribes of Var-Ghur, Mighty Thyl in the old Lantic Empire and Romal the Everking to the peoples of Rhodania, gods of rulership and sources political legitimacy, maybe seen as glorious ancestors, kinda like the Anglosaxon heptarchic dynasties saw Wotan as their ultimate ancestor; as The Thunder of Glory and the Praised Lightning in the lands of Ös, as Tunans the Roaring in the Tarsennic Realms, as Sagamar the Sky Father among the Mereyt, gods of the storm, lightning and violence, or father gods in the vein of Zeus and Odin, or maybe he is seen as Tien-Li within the Golden Walls of Da-Yin-Jing in the Ghurlands, and Yan-Mir the Golden Dragon among the subjects of the Jade Tiger Throne, protector gods of civilization as opposed to the wilderness and savage outside, that scary world of pure Nature (and there is a lot of pure deadly nature in Ghur and Ghyran)

I made all this up, but you get my point: The Age of Sigmar setting, so far, lacks consistent rules for magic and divine entities, so Gods, for now, will be whatever the writers will want them to be. Sometimes they need worship, sometimes not, sometimes they have multiple facets, sometimes they are definite characters with quirks and agendas, and sometimes the writers will bring back a crowd favourite from the Old World and make him into a minor god or major player (Morathi, for instance. Settra will not be far behind).

Edited July 23, 2019 by Cèsar de Quart

[Lord marcus]

On 7/18/2019 at 12:27 PM, Fisherdwarf said:

A lot of this info can be found in the End Times storyline. I'd look up a synopsis online as the books might be fairly difficult to find/expensive.

I read a fan-made one with a very comedic commentator-style spin, but if that's not what you're looking for I'm sure there are more sombre versions out there.

 

may i guess at 1D4chan?

[Skreech Verminking]

Well I mean we all know that the great horned rat is the only true (chaos) God in the 13realms.

syre we have Sigmar, but that guy basically was a human tribesman who basically founded the empire and later became somehow a god.

we have the selfish and always offended deity Nagash, who shares a similar history like Sigmar, and only became well a god after he basically cursed his home and raised it back from the dead as he did with the rest of the dead-things.

then there are Teclis, Tyrion, Malekith (Malerion) and technically not yet a god Morathi.

They all were ones a mortals part of the old world, just like Sigmar who somehow took over Franz’s body in the end times.

then there are all those old Elvish gods, like khaine, Hoeth, Asuryan, Isha, Kurnoth etc.

Of  which we know that Khaine seemed to have had his hands in his own made up great game, which he played with the so called famous wizard who made the vortex and died later. (Trilogy Tyrion and telcis) the rest of those gods, Well were technically never played a part in the game, they are more like a symbol of hope or something else, similar lot what we people think the different gods in our own religions (if we have one) are.

then there is Ulric, worshipped by a few empire cities and known as the protector of Nuln (?)

anyways it is said that he ones held foot on the old world and a huge tribe followed his path to glory.

so basically also a human with immense power, able to sustain his spirit with his magical prowess for centuries.

Then we have Gork (or Mork), a very strong one indeed, gods of war and worshipped by the green-things.

The Orks and goblins seem to be able to channel this deity’s energy, gaining immense killing powers and cunning, or was it the other way around?

not sure how they do it, but who knows believe  can be everything.

Then there are the four well known chaos gods , Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch and nurgle, all of which have their own specialities and strategies of warfare.

well from what is said this warp deity’s gain their form from the believers and desires of mortal around the old world.

unable to descend into the mortal realms they send their armies of daemons, each possessing a fragment of their gods, into the world.

then there are a few lesser gods and kings like the great maw, of which I know nothing, the guy from the wood aelves which uses a sacrificed Noble elven body, and some other gods that I don’t really care naming.

and last but not least we have “the great horned Rat” , a God deity who is worshipped by the skaven, a factions that is seen as a fairy tale in the empires, believed to be weak by the worshipped of chaos, Nagash and other races like the Elves, hated by the dwarfs and Orks, and feared and respected by the goblins (more or less). It is this gods race which overrun the dwarfen holds, killed of a huge amount of slann, just by destroying the moon, and even steal-took a whole empire city down to the under empire. 

Yeah and then there were those small victories over the Brettonians and much-many more victories,  which still needs to be claimed by the highest most brutal, lier in the whole under empire.

(Probably Thanqoul, he even faked his death perfectly when he was technically slain by Archaon)

So yeah, with that it is more or less proven that the great horned rat, not only shares a fracture of every chaos god, but excels, in what the other gods are worshipped for. 

A deity that not only outdeceives tzeentch, kills and takes casualties, far more than khorne, and basically brings death and no new lives with his feculent plagues , outperforming nurgle while doing so, and even his perversion for making  horrible living weapons and technology far beyond imagination surpasses even Slaaneshes lust, which makes him the one and only fearful deity that is basically the incarnation “of true chaos”.

ah yes right I forgot to mention there are still the dwarfen gods out there.

there isn’t much I know of them from the old worlds.

well maybe with the exception of the white dwarf (definitely a god)

And the master ail brewer, bugman, who is worshipped by every dwarf in the realms, although it just might be his 🍺 .

 

Edited July 28, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[silverstu]

On 7/18/2019 at 5:42 PM, DarkWingDuck said:

I think they might be able to die, it's just that something needs to actively kill them to make it happen. Nagash ate most of the other death gods (including Valnar - Dwarf Godess of Brewing ... although Gazul - Dwarf protector of the Dead might still be kicking around (iirc there are some Dwarfs in "A Dirge of Dust and Steel" which worship him and they imply he's not part of Nagash yet)).

Grungni - Dwarf god of smithing

Gazul - Dwarf protector of the dead (maybe ... or maybe he's just an aspect of Nagash now)

The White Dwarf - Is he a god? Or is he just really old? Grungni seems to treat him as an equal.

 

 

Valaya the dwarf goddess had her power devoured by Nagash in the End Times, although its hinted in the fyreslayer book that Grungni might be trying to find her as part of his new mission..

Has the White Dwarf appeared much in AoS? He seems to pop up in the short story Pantheon ..[hinted at, not stated - wandering hooded old dwarf, grubby with a white beard, who has a copy of one of Grungni's keys..]

[Double Misfire]

On 7/18/2019 at 7:29 PM, michu said:

Ulric is now (probably) Ursricht -Godbeast and ancestral figure of  the Astral Templars stormhost. 

Ulric  is quite explicitly dead, deader than most gods after the End Times. Ursricht is described as a gigantic white bear,  surely he's got a more likely chance of being tied to Ursun? 🤨

14 minutes ago, silverstu said:

Has the White Dwarf appeared much in AoS? He seems to pop up in the short story Pantheon ..[hinted at, not stated - wandering hooded old dwarf, grubby with a white beard, who has a copy of one of Grungni's keys..]

He gets a nice cameo in Eight Lamentations: Spear of Shadows, turning up and having a chat with Grungni where they're both so old neither can remember who's descended from the other.

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

And the master ail brewer, bugman, who is worshipped by every dwarf in the realms, although it just might be his 🍺 .

Eh? Is this cited anywhere in the background or is it just the stylised "B" still stamped on most duardin tankards?

(I really want to know why Karl Franz's name and initials are still everywhere )

[Turin Turambar]

On 7/19/2019 at 12:39 AM, wander said:

From memory, Nagash essentially ate all the other gods of death to get his power and Alarielle is now a fusion of herself and Isha (perhaps she and Shallya were the same also?). Lileath was killed by the Chaos Gods with her chosen and she was the Lady in the Lake for Brettonians.

Morathi holds Khaine's heart and he may one day get reborn from that shard of himself, though he was slain in the End Times.

There were likely other reveals, though those are the main ones I can think of currently.

Lileath was killed by teclis so he could take her remaining powers (she had given most of her power to her unnamed daughter who became the new lady of the lake who along with the grail knights and some wood elves and bretonians went to a pocket realm, which was then hinted to be destroyed and not destroyed [I think GW at the time wanted it open ended so they could bring back Bretonians or their spiritual descendants if they ever felt like it, yet not be in a position where they had to keep the old range nor feel forced to ever keep them) Leon Leoncoeur was also deified (and the green knight was hinted at doing so aswell)

 

On 7/19/2019 at 6:59 AM, wander said:

The world Lileath created was later sold out by some Brets and the Chaos Gods found it and devoured it, that said... Lileath could have appeared as this Silvered Saint as it does sound a lot like her, also she was a daughter of Isha, who now is part of Alarielle.

The mentions of other gods names surviving as aspects of these Stormhosts could mean Lileath is one of these too.

nope, it was speculated in universe to have been destroyed but later hinted to not have been. chaos know of it but considering how long it took them to destory the world that was its unrealistic for them to simply squat it FYI.

[Ashendant]

On 7/28/2019 at 3:30 AM, xking said:

That guy is from Texas, Is summer longer in  Texas?

I only have the same information that I just gave you.

[Ashendant]

25 minutes ago, xking said:

I am going to guess august

It's possible.

[Whitefang]

Read the new Sylvaneth battletome

Yeah Kurnous survived the End Times, and became Kurnoth later in Mortal Realms

However, in age of Chaos, he was slayed again by Horticulus, which is very a bad news.

The last  part of his soul is now contained in his spear, wielded by Everqueen herself

Some Sylvaneth still think they can bring him back through wild hunt and sacrifice.

[Ashendant]

2 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Read the new Sylvaneth battletome

Yeah Kurnous survived the End Times, and became Kurnoth later in Mortal Realms

However, in age of Chaos, he was slayed again by Horticulus, which is very a bad news.

The last  part of his soul is now contained in his spear, wielded by Everqueen herself

Some Sylvaneth still think they can bring him back through wild hunt and sacrifice.

Does it literally say that Kurnous survived the End Times and became Kurnoth.

[Whitefang]

Just now, Ashendant said:

Does it literally say that Kurnous survived the End Times and became Kurnoth.

Well， it does not explain why the name changed but does say he 'escaped the destruction of the world-that-was'

I assume the change of the name is just a simple copyright issue.

[Ashendant]

17 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Well， it does not explain why the name changed but does say he 'escaped the destruction of the world-that-was'

I assume the change of the name is just a simple copyright issue.

My speculation about the name was that he fused with Anath, the other elven hunting god.

[CommissarRotke]

49 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Read the new Sylvaneth battletome

Yeah Kurnous survived the End Times, and became Kurnoth later in Mortal Realms

However, in age of Chaos, he was slayed again by Horticulus, which is very a bad news.

The last  part of his soul is now contained in his spear, wielded by Everqueen herself

Some Sylvaneth still think they can bring him back through wild hunt and sacrifice.

how TF did a guy riding a giant snail kill a God...

On 7/28/2019 at 3:48 AM, Skreech Verminking said:

then there is Ulric, worshipped by a few empire cities and known as the protector of Nuln (?)

Ulric was the patron god of Middenheim

[Whitefang]

1 minute ago, CommissarRotke said:

how TF did a guy riding a giant snail kill a God...

A very traditional way: Choose winter to attack and  bring lots of good fellows as backup

[Fairbanks]

2 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

how TF did a guy riding a giant snail kill a God...

Probably the same way that fatso Festus killed the great King Louen Leoncoeur: Let him kill a GUO, then jump him while he's wounded.

To be fair, Horticulous is one of Nurgle's first children, so he's probably more powerful than he looks.

[Fairbanks]

On 7/27/2019 at 9:30 PM, xking said:

Is summer longer in  Texas?

Everything is bigger in Texas.

Everything.

[AthlorianStoners]

The Sylvaneth Battletome also implies some aspect of Kurnoth still lives in. 

[Cèsar de Quart]

On 7/29/2019 at 6:39 PM, Ashendant said:

My speculation about the name was that he fused with Anath, the other elven hunting god.

It's clearly because of copyright, otherwise they wouldn't have changed his name. If Nagash was called Anubis they'd probably have changed his name, just like they changed the very iconic Malekith into Malerion to avoid problems with Marvel (probably). As far as I know, Malekith is not an adaptation of any myth an purely a Marvel invention.

Of course there's Horus in 40k, but given that in 40k everyone has names reminiscent (if not outright taken) from our world... they probably let that slide.

Doesn't it seem like everyone escaped the death of the Old World? We've got already a big number of people who managed to escape being consumed, eaten or obliterated by either a Chaos god, Archaon, or the End of the World itself. Gods who should be dead are "alive", mortals who should have died have been rescued (or at least their soul has)... it's starting to feel like GW doesn't have a lot of ideas for new charismatic characters.