Old World Gods?

[Wraith01]

Thanks to the 4th ed WarHammer Fantasy Role-Play game  I've been thinking about some Old World stuff. I didn't know anything about the Warhammer Fantasy stuff since I got into Tabletop games with Age of Sigmar and hadn't bother to look much into the past lore, until now.

So, Sigmar survived the End Times and went on to shape the Mortal Realms. But what about the rest of the Gods? What happened to them?

I mean they are Gods, they can't really die... and others ascended to godhood. Morr wouldn't be happy to just let Nagash take his place. Same with Rhya and Allariel...

Could they come back? Are they trapped somewhere? Did they splinter off to another Reality?

[Fisherdwarf]

A lot of this info can be found in the End Times storyline. I'd look up a synopsis online as the books might be fairly difficult to find/expensive.

I read a fan-made one with a very comedic commentator-style spin, but if that's not what you're looking for I'm sure there are more sombre versions out there.

 

[EccentricCircle]

I think that Nagash ate Morr, although I'm not 100% sure about the circumstances surrounding that.

I think that some of the gods effectively possessed the Incarnate of the Wind of Magic they are most associated with, so the Sigmar that exists in AoS is sort of a fusion of the Empire's Concept of Sigmar, the Wind of Azyr made manifest, and the mortal Karl Franz ascended to godhood. The dwarven gods and Alarielle might be similar, they are not quite the old gods, or ascended mortals, rather they are something inbetween.

[wander]

From memory, Nagash essentially ate all the other gods of death to get his power and Alarielle is now a fusion of herself and Isha (perhaps she and Shallya were the same also?). Lileath was killed by the Chaos Gods with her chosen and she was the Lady in the Lake for Brettonians.

Morathi holds Khaine's heart and he may one day get reborn from that shard of himself, though he was slain in the End Times.

There were likely other reveals, though those are the main ones I can think of currently.

[EccentricCircle]

I think most of the shards of Khaine were consumed by/ reabsorbed into Khorne. So the one Morathi has is one of the last remnants of that god at all.

[DarkWingDuck]

I think they might be able to die, it's just that something needs to actively kill them to make it happen. Nagash ate most of the other death gods (including Valnar - Dwarf Godess of Brewing ... although Gazul - Dwarf protector of the Dead might still be kicking around (iirc there are some Dwarfs in "A Dirge of Dust and Steel" which worship him and they imply he's not part of Nagash yet)).

There are a number of old world gods still floating around.

Sigmar - God of hammers 🙂 (although it's not clear if he was really a god in the Old World)

Grungni - Dwarf god of smithing

Gazul - Dwarf protector of the dead (maybe ... or maybe he's just an aspect of Nagash now)

The White Dwarf - Is he a god? Or is he just really old? Grungni seems to treat him as an equal.

Gorkamorka (aka Gork and Mork) - Goblinoid god of brutal-kunning or kunning-brutality.

Alarielle - kinda, Alarielle and  Ariel merged in the End Times. Although Alarielle wasn't a goddess, Ariel definitely seemed like one.

Kurnoth (Kurnous) - The old elven god of the hunt (of which Orion was his Avatar iirc), made it through the end times and then got destroyed in the age of myth iirc.

 

 

[wander]

True. The one thing the End Times seemed to make clear were that many human gods and elf gods were likely the same, going under different names and guises to thier followers.

[wander]

Kurnoth/Kurnous is referenced in the 2nd edition core rules for AoS, I think without looking up in the Realm of Life pages, so at least either his name or an aspect of him survives and also, whilst I'm not 100% as I may misremember, I think he is also courting Alarielle at this time, or they have some type of 'they're apart though each time this event happens they can meet' thing going on.

He's only name-dropped, so we don't know if it's the same guy or not. I'm guessing an Aelf battletome or novel in the future may give more info on it.

[Wraith01]

Oh Wow. You guys have given me some great insights into this.

Anything about Ulric???

[wander]

7 minutes ago, Wraith01 said:

Oh Wow. You guys have given me some great insights into this.

Anything about Ulric???

I don't think he's got mentioned since Teclis used up the Flame of Ulric to revive Tyrion (who previously was possessed with Khaine and was killed, thus killing Khaine also). As the flame got used to ressurrect Tyrion and was extinguished, Ulric also was killed too. To put it quickly. I don't think he's got a mention in Age of Sigmar yet, could be wrong though.

[CommissarRotke]

2 hours ago, Wraith01 said:

Thanks to the 4th ed WarHammer Fantasy Role-Play game  I've been thinking about some Old World stuff. I didn't know anything about the Warhammer Fantasy stuff since I got into Tabletop games with Age of Sigmar and hadn't bother to look much into the past lore, until now.

So, Sigmar survived the End Times and went on to shape the Mortal Realms. But what about the rest of the Gods? What happened to them?

I mean they are Gods, they can't really die... and others ascended to godhood. Morr wouldn't be happy to just let Nagash take his place. Same with Rhya and Allariel...

Could they come back? Are they trapped somewhere? Did they splinter off to another Reality?

Did you post this on reddit too? 😝

The Winds of magic infused with a bunch of the Heroes, who are now the new Gods in AOS. There's an End Times synopsis on the warhammer fanwiki that is? ongoing? but it's a bit spotty and sometimes not coherent. The ending parts about the Winds of Magic splitting out of the Vortex were good to know for AOS though.

I don't recall what happened to Ulric, but if he DID survive we can expect wolf humans for free peoples perhaps

[michu]

Ulric is now (probably) Ursricht -Godbeast and ancestral figure of  the Astral Templars stormhost. Same goes for Myrmidia (Tempest Lords) and Morr (now Morrda - Anvils of the Heldenhammer). Even Runefang swords became a spiritual being that are revered by Celestial Vindicators. And IIRC Hallowed Knights worship Sigmar but they also revere a Silver saint -spirit associated with lakes (Lileath reincarnated?)

[CommissarRotke]

2 minutes ago, michu said:

Ulric is now (probably) Ursricht -Godbeast and ancestral figure of  the Astral Templars stormhost. Same goes for Myrmidia (Tempest Lords) and Morr (now Morrda - Anvils of the Heldenhammer). Even Runefang swords became a spiritual being that are revered by Celestial Vindicators. And IIRC Hallowed Knights worship Sigmar but they also revere a Silver saint -spirit associated with lakes (Lileath reincarnated?)

I will have to go back and read those stormhosts in full then oops!!

The Hallowed Knight lore is "Since Alarielle gave her blessing to the Hallowed Knights during the Realmgate Wars, there has been talk of a glowing figure sighted in and around their foremost Stormkeeps. Known only as the Silvered Saint, this androgynous, feather-winged being appears in reflections and even bodies of water to lend its blessing to those afflicted by doubt in times of great need."

Warhammer wikia says Lileath "granted the last of her ebbing divinity to her daughter, before sending both her and Araloth forth into a new world of her own creation " so I don't think they are the same being, but it also doesn't outright say Lileath died--whether this is because it's incomplete or not I don't know. However it seems more likely we'll see Lileath's daughter instead.

Not sure if I'd want that Silvered Saint to be a World That Was hero-turned-(demi)god, or a new demigod entirely

[wander]

The world Lileath created was later sold out by some Brets and the Chaos Gods found it and devoured it, that said... Lileath could have appeared as this Silvered Saint as it does sound a lot like her, also she was a daughter of Isha, who now is part of Alarielle.

The mentions of other gods names surviving as aspects of these Stormhosts could mean Lileath is one of these too.

[Ashendant]

5 hours ago, xking said:

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Category:Age_of_Sigmar_background

This is the better category, https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Category:Deities_of_the_Mortal_Realms with a complete list of all deities in the mortals realms. You can also check for a more organized list by type https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Template:Mortal_Realms_Deities

Some of the gods are the same, like Sigmar, the Bad Moon or Tzeentch.

Some have gone through small changes, like Morrda, which is similar, to  or Kurnoth which seems to be the fusion of Kurnous and Anath, or Gorkamorka.

Some have ascended, like how Great Horned Rat became a Dark God,  how Alarielle, Tyrion, Teclis, Malerion ascended to godhood, Morghur became a Chaos God and Morathi a Demigoddess

Others are entirely new, Vulcatrix, Lunaghast, Manarchael and the Dreaming One.

There's a lot of stuff to be said about deities in the Mortal Realms. 

Edited July 18, 2019 by Ashendant

[Ashendant]

46 minutes ago, wander said:

The world Lileath created was later sold out by some Brets and the Chaos Gods found it and devoured it, that said... Lileath could have appeared as this Silvered Saint as it does sound a lot like her, also she was a daughter of Isha, who now is part of Alarielle.

The mentions of other gods names surviving as aspects of these Stormhosts could mean Lileath is one of these too.

I dunno. When Araloth unmasked Asuryan and found his own face, I thought it was implied that the Haven was them just time travelling to the beginning of time Warhammer World. Araloth becomes Asuryan through time travel and that "cosmic cycle" was a time loop, which explains why he was always able to outmatch Tzeentch in the game of fate. Atleast that was my interpretation of it.

[wander]

On Araloth, that makes sense. Though also the Old World was destroyed by the Chaos Gods (also that the Elf pantheon -and possibly the others- were survivors of the world that came before), so timey-wimey hijinks, eh?

Also Lunaghast was confirmed to be the ghost of Morrslieb, I'm fairly sure it was on a warhammer community page when the Malign Portents campaign was running though possibly it was mentioned in one of the short stories too. I'll have to find it and link it, as I had a discussion over that with someone off-site before and remember linking them the page back then.

[Aelfric]

2 hours ago, wander said:

The world Lileath created was later sold out by some Brets and the Chaos Gods found it and devoured it

Lileath was the Goddess of Dreams and so it is quite possible that this never actually happened - just a thought.

[Whitefang]

I am sure that some of the old gods did survive and even became part of Sigmar’s pantheon, Taal was mentioned being worshipped in Ghur while Myrmidya  has her own knightly order.

Gazul and Valaya were very likely alive at the time of myth but some things had happened to them, like, it was mentioned that Gazul was defeated by Nagash but part of him still preserved by his worshippers.

Kurnous seems very likely survived and got name changed for copyright issues, Khaine was half-dead but there is still chance for him to rise again though little. It was also mentioned that Teclis was trying to revive other old elven gods.

Lizardmen’s gods, aka “old ones” seem also still exit in AOS, they, such as Sotek, are now “star gods” who were constellations and still able to bless Space Lizardmen. It is interesting that Sotek even has human worshippers now.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Whitefang

[Whitefang]

5 hours ago, wander said:

The world Lileath created was later sold out by some Brets and the Chaos Gods found it and devoured it, that said... Lileath could have appeared as this Silvered Saint as it does sound a lot like her, also she was a daughter of Isha, who now is part of Alarielle.

The mentions of other gods names surviving as aspects of these Stormhosts could mean Lileath is one of these too.

It was hinted in new Slaanesh Battletome that some elves survive the End Time by “secret haven”

Edited July 19, 2019 by Whitefang

[JackStreicher]

17 hours ago, Wraith01 said:

Thanks to the 4th ed WarHammer Fantasy Role-Play game  I've been thinking about some Old World stuff. I didn't know anything about the Warhammer Fantasy stuff since I got into Tabletop games with Age of Sigmar and hadn't bother to look much into the past lore, until now.

So, Sigmar survived the End Times and went on to shape the Mortal Realms. But what about the rest of the Gods? What happened to them?

I mean they are Gods, they can't really die... and others ascended to godhood. Morr wouldn't be happy to just let Nagash take his place. Same with Rhya and Allariel...

Could they come back? Are they trapped somewhere? Did they splinter off to another Reality?

Nagash ate Morr and the Khemri god of death.

Sigmar possessed Karl Franz‘ cold dead Body (well it was still warm).

Sone dwarven gods were also eaten by Nagash „Nommnomm“

the gods if the old world once were mortals in the time before the old world. The cycle looks like this: a world dies -> some special mortals become gods -> world dies old gods  stay gods (if they weren’t destroyed) and some special mortals become gods etc. Etc

Edited July 19, 2019 by JackStreicher

[EccentricCircle]

5 hours ago, Whitefang said:

I am sure that some of the old gods did survive and even became part of Sigmar’s pantheon, Taal was mentioned being worshipped in Ghur while Myrmidya  has her own knightly order.

Gazul and Valaya were very likely alive at the time of myth but some things had happened to them, like, it was mentioned that Gazul was defeated by Nagash but part of him still preserved by his worshippers.

Kurnous seems very likely survived and got name changed for copyright issues, Khaine was half-dead but there is still chance for him to rise again though little. It was also mentioned that Teclis was trying to revive other old elven gods.

Lizardmen’s gods, aka “old ones” seem also still exit in AOS, they, such as Sotek, are now “star gods” who were constellations and still able to bless Space Lizardmen. It is interesting that Sotek even has human worshippers now.

Although its worth noting that Sotek was never actually an Old One. The Old Ones were the creator gods of the Lizardmen, and by extension most of the races that came after them. Originally they were the only beings worshiped by the Lizardmen, who were very suspicious of all other "gods" worshiped by mortals since many of them were Chaos Entities.

However Sotek appeared during a time of great strife for the Lizardmen, and saved them from the deprivations of the Skaven, in exchange for eternal worship and bloody sacrifices. The Slann don't approve of the Sotek Cult, since this entity could well just be a Chaos God in another guise. However, the Skinks are now fanatical devotees of him, and so they can't outlaw the practice without upsetting the balance of power within their races.

[Whitefang]

2 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

Although its worth noting that Sotek was never actually an Old One. The Old Ones were the creator gods of the Lizardmen, and by extension most of the races that came after them. Originally they were the only beings worshiped by the Lizardmen, who were very suspicious of all other "gods" worshiped by mortals since many of them were Chaos Entities.

However Sotek appeared during a time of great strife for the Lizardmen, and saved them from the deprivations of the Skaven, in exchange for eternal worship and bloody sacrifices. The Slann don't approve of the Sotek Cult, since this entity could well just be a Chaos God in another guise. However, the Skinks are now fanatical devotees of him, and so they can't outlaw the practice without upsetting the balance of power within their races.

Yeah you are right. I just mean those “old ones” and “Sotek” seem to be “star gods” now

[Aelfric]

8 hours ago, Whitefang said:

It was hinted in new Slaanesh Battletome that some elves survive the End Time by “secret haven”

That's interesting - unless you buy every battletome you miss little snippets like that.  As a Wanderers player, I've created my own legend for my clan whereby Lileath's haven survived the End Times as a Dreamworld (Sigendel in my case), reigned over by Lileath's daughter and Araloth her father, with Wood Elf and Brettonian survivors existing in stasis similar to the legend of Arthur and his knights sleeping in a cave waiting to defend the land.  When the Realms had settled, many Clans were taken to the realms and awoken to maintain the Ley-lines that hold the Realms together.  It would be nice to think some of it might be close.  

[gjnoronh]

If you want End Times coverage I highly recommend the Garage Hammer Podcasts covering the End Times books.  Best narrative discussion of that time period I've heard https://garagehammer.net/