The Rumour Thread

[Sception]

with 1/2 inch double coherency infantry units might as well go back to being ranked up on squares.  1 inch double coherency, or 1/2 inch single coherency is fine, but half inch double, and we're /still/ doing obnoxious wholly within bubbles (albeit fewer of them due to commands not being 'issued' by models with ranges) is just obnoxious.

the only bit I havent liked from the 4e previews so far.

[Grungnisson]

17 minutes ago, Captaniser said:

Coherency is now half an inch. It’s going to be so friggin annoying moving models with bits that overhand bases now, boingrot bounders and all of the Night haunt are going to be a nightmare.

 

Oh my god, yes... Revenants, Harridans, Grimghasts... are nigh on unplayable if they need to be this close.

[Tonhel]

1 minute ago, pitzok said:

Yes it is about the touch, but if a normal human is the size of a kroxigor's leg, it will be much easier to turn them into crystal than a kroxigor.

Yes, but you can also look at it the other way. I.e a quick moving Vanari Bladelord is much more difficult to hit than a Kroxigor, but on a 3+ the Vanari Bladelords will strike last and the Kroxigor is immune to it. 

[Tonhel]

5 minutes ago, Sception said:

with 1/2 inch double coherency infantry units might as well go back to being ranked up on squares.  1 inch double coherency, or 1/2 inch single coherency is fine, but half inch double, and we're /still/ doing obnoxious wholly within bubbles (albeit fewer of them due to commands not being 'issued' by models with ranges) is just obnoxious.

the only bit I havent liked from the 4e previews so far.

Yeah poses like this, become very problematic.

[Marcvs]

another point on the broader picture: with units having a smaller footprint (due to reduced coherency range) and objectives getting smaller as well, this might result in more "space" on the table so maybe (even more) emphasis on high mobility?

[Tonhel]

7 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

another point on the broader picture: with units having a smaller footprint (due to reduced coherency range) and objectives getting smaller as well, this might result in more "space" on the table so maybe (even more) emphasis on high mobility?

Yes, but the mini's aren't designed with that in mind. There are dozens of examples of dynamic mini's that will have problems to fit because of the pose/weapons.

[novakai]

Oh boy I can see problems with Boingrots, Khinerai, every NH unit, Gossomid Archers, LRL wardens, Tzaangors, and Mortek guards with spear to name a few 

[EonChao]

It's worth noting that Coherency can vary so we could see some of the more awkward to rank up units like Harridans get larger coherence numbers

 

[Sception]

yeah nighthaunts will be a pain in the butt with this coherency.  Heck, skeletons with their skirts and lowered spears will be a pain.

Time to finally break down and get unit trays, I guess.  The only way to get units into reliable coherency is to fix them in place relative to each other.

Yeah, I think I actively hate the new coherency rules.  3e coherency was bad and a pain, this is somehow worse.

[Cdance93]

32 minutes ago, novakai said:

Oh boy I can see problems with Boingrots, Khinerai, every NH unit, Gossomid Archers, LRL wardens, Tzaangors, and Mortek guards with spear to name a few 

I mean Wardens literally want to be base to base so nothing too bad there

[Mutton]

Those Kroxigor are awesome, beefy as hell. Now gimme 6 Health Troggoths!

[Luperci]

Hopefully TOs won't be too antsy about unit coherency where it's physically hard to fit them, in a more casual setting I imagine you can be a bit loose with exact distances on the coherency. Sucks if you wanna do some crazy modelling stuff though

 

[CommissarRotke]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

Mystic shield gone.

Where do you see this?

[Ganigumo]

44 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

Yes, but the mini's aren't designed with that in mind. There are dozens of examples of dynamic mini's that will have problems to fit because of the pose/weapons.

Just going to point out we had this tech in the first aos 3 book (stormcast) and it somehow made it into idoneth sharks, but not nurgle flies, despite the sharks being easier to get into coherency.

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, CommissarRotke said:

Where do you see this?

presumably based on what they said AoD is the only universal way to get +1 to save now.
Doesn't mean mystic shield is gone, but its not +1 to save anymore. Maybe its a ward, spell ignore, or ward vs mortals.

[Luperci]

1 hour ago, Tonhel said:

Yes, but you can also look at it the other way. I.e a quick moving Vanari Bladelord is much more difficult to hit than a Kroxigor, but on a 3+ the Vanari Bladelords will strike last and the Kroxigor is immune to it. 

tbf I imagine in-universe, melusai are very quick, the only thing it wouldn't make sense for to me is like, a nighthaunt, how do you touch a ghost, let alone turn it to crystal. In terms of health characteristics, imagine it like the melusai can't overpower creatures with a more vital lifeforce? That's how I interpret it, outside of game balance stuff

[Tonhel]

10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Just going to point out we had this tech in the first aos 3 book (stormcast) and it somehow made it into idoneth sharks, but not nurgle flies, despite the sharks being easier to get into coherency.

yeah, but now it's problematic for basic infantry.

[Tonhel]

19 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Those Kroxigor are awesome, beefy as hell. Now gimme 6 Health Troggoths!

Not only beefy, the damage output is immense. You really want to avoide these with your 1-2 wound units as they will obliterated.

[Goatforce]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

They said in the article rend was reduced across the game.

I think the issue is that whilst Rend is being reduced across game, the warscrolls they have shown are fairly elite/monstrous. I mean a hammer sized to be wielded by a Kroxigor is going to crumple armour as if it weren't there.

In other words they have shown stuff that gives a false impression that rend isn't being reduced. I am fairly sure once we have the PDFs there will be less of it overall, or much of it will have been transferred into specialisations. For example we see the Krox is now being tooled as an infantry killer that excells vs large groups. Maybe a lot of rend will be transferred into differentiating units like this, essentially functioning as the "anti infantry" or "anti large" from Total War Warhammer.

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, Marcvs said:

my feeling is that the new coherency, the wound pools (albeit not hugely impactful at first blush) and other little signs (the 3" range will mean most units will just have all their models in range) point to the focus switching from single models to "units" as the game piece -likely won't be achieved entirely in this edition of course. It is surely a direction to go if you want the game to be faster.

Agreed(but ran out reacts).

Feels very much like the units are gamer pieces & walking health bars. Very arcady in that sense with the emphasis on wanting faster games.

I agree closer coherency is a pain but that’s the beauty of round bases that it’s an easy rotate to keep everyone together, even if someone does end up charging in backwards. 😅

Hopefully we’ll see wider special coherencies for NightHaunt, Sylvaneth & Gloomspite stuff as the major issues. But otherwise it’s an easy enough thing to adapt to even having your guys move in a death ball across the field.

And I can understand it. AoS2 already had congaline & daisychain problems even AoS3 couldn’t solve, now with the new 3” melees as well everyone gets those would be nightmares of overlays.

So tighter blobs were their answer. 
 

That aside everything else looks really good & thematic with much more vicious melees feeding into AoS’ Gods vs Monsters status as no one takes a backward step under the constant watch of their gods and goes all in.(and retreat is heavily punished)

After the initial birthing pains I think AoS4 onwards is gonna be an amazing time to battle through the Mortal Realms and see built on in the next editions! 

[Tonhel]

16 minutes ago, Luperci said:

tbf I imagine in-universe, melusai are very quick, the only thing it wouldn't make sense for to me is like, a nighthaunt, how do you touch a ghost, let alone turn it to crystal. In terms of health characteristics, imagine it like the melusai can't overpower creatures with a more vital lifeforce? That's how I interpret it, outside of game balance stuff

Good point about nighthaunt. Anyway both the Blood sisters and the Kroxigors have to be avoided by basic infantry with 1-2 wounds. Both are in their own way very dangerous to 1-2 wound models.

Edit: Looking at the Coherency rules it seems that the AoS team also wants a rank and file game, but without the flanks and rear bonus. 😄 

Edited April 17 by Tonhel

[Goatforce]

22 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Those Kroxigor are awesome, beefy as hell. Now gimme 6 Health Troggoths!

I wonder if Coalesced are still going to have -1 to damage too, or even -1 to wound, because damn these things will be hard to shift with either of them!

 

Though maybe this is a sign that Krox will be considered more elite and pointed a bit higher... Can't wait to find out!

[Sarouan]

Rend reduced across the game is the same move than strength save modifiers being gone in The Old World : it helps making save characteristic more relevant. And it also helps stopping making big saves like 2+ as essential. I bet some saves will also be less "bigger" across the game than in 3rd as a result.

I'm also not a fan of the 1/2 inch coherency. Someone at GW design team really dislikes big units spreading across the table...to be honest, unit coherency was also an issue in 3rd, with the first release punishing hard all units of 6+ models. Seems like the same blind move from the design team too focused on tournaments and "what may happen with players abusing big units".

[AquaRegis]

1 minute ago, Goatforce said:

I think the issue is that whilst Rend is being reduced across game, the warscrolls they have shown are fairly elite/monstrous. I mean a hammer sized to be wielded by a Kroxigor is going to crumple armour as if it weren't there.

In other words they have shown stuff that gives a false impression that rend isn't being reduced. I am fairly sure once we have the PDFs there will be less of it overall, or much of it will have been transferred into specialisations. For example we see the Krox is now being tooled as an infantry killer that excells vs large groups. Maybe a lot of rend will be transferred into differentiating units like this, essentially functioning as the "anti infantry" or "anti large" from Total War Warhammer.

It looks to be a simply way at identifying units and thier roles. 
Standard Kroxigors are alredy better at taking out hordes of infantry whilst warspawned are better at taking out more elite units or monsters, so all this does is bake a couple of key words into thier warscrolls. 

I'm all for this tbh, and I like the more specialised unit direction they seem to be going in. I'm hoping that they keep a couple of all rounders though. Stone trolls should hit hard against anything, be able to take a hit, but be slow and "stupid" andf maybe struggle against mass hordes. 

I hate battleshock to, so I'm glad its going away and that retreat is now a thing. If its implemented well then it should make the big moshpits and multi unit combat way more interesting. 

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, Sarouan said:

Rend reduced across the game is the same move than strength save modifiers being gone in The Old World : it helps making save characteristic more relevant. And it also helps stopping making big saves like 2+ as essential. I bet some saves will also be less "bigger" across the game than in 3rd as a result.

I'm also not a fan of the 1/2 inch coherency. Someone at GW design team really dislikes big units spreading across the table...to be honest, unit coherency was also an issue in 3rd, with the first release punishing hard all units of 6+ models. Seems like the same blind move from the design team too focused on tournaments and "what may happen with players abusing big units".

3rd edition rules were written like 1.5 years into 2nd edition right? There was still some "within" 1st edition style buffs running around, so tightening coherency made some sense to crack down on the conga lining. Problem was they had fixed the problem in the battletomes by switching to wholly within so when we actually got the rules the problem had been fixed.
I'm not sure why 10 dudes standing shoulder to shoulder is illegal, but 6 pigs butt to face is fine.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Tonhel said:

yeah, but now it's problematic for basic infantry.

I don't disagree. Its not like a balance problem, just really annoying.