The Rumour Thread

[EonChao]

The difference between Beastmen and High/Wood/Dark Elves is that GW had completely different ideas for directions to take the Aelves in that stepped on similar design space to the Elves of WfB. So they lumped them into Cities of Sigmar to kill time whilst preparing to replace them. Beasts of Chaos on the other hand were allowed to be their own thing. If GW had similar plans for them then they would have just wrapped them in with Slaves to Darkness like the WfB Beastmen used to be mixed in with the main Chaos list in older editions. I think Beastmen will be an army that largely straddles both games. They don't really need many older models bringing back for TOW that aren't somewhere in the AoS range, and the figures are fairly unique to GW in the wider industry. What we might see in the future is TOW is used to update classic Beastmen units, and AoS is used to add more unique out there stuff to the faction that only gets added to AoS.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

23 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

IMO they're not trying to limit crossplay, but are probably trying to split the armies into TOW armies and AoS armies so they can track sales.

But there will be crossplay between TOW and AoS armies. Like for example look at StD, I'm 100% sure their new chaos warriors and knights models will be used in TOW as well.

I'd like to see more of things like that, especially for Beastmen/BoC and Warclans/Gobbos and O&G. Effective to kill 2 birds in one stone release wise.

Edited July 20, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[novakai]

37 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

But there will be crossplay between TOW and AoS armies. Like for example look at StD, I'm 100% sure their new chaos warriors and knights models will be used in TOW as well.

I'd like to see more of things like that, especially for Beastmen/BoC and Warclans/Gobbos and O&G. Effective to kill 2 birds in one stone release wise.

They probably using the old chaos models for Old world that were replace when Slaves to Darkness came out. They probably will not outright use the AoS models for the old world even in promotion bits and crossplay will just be on people proxying. I don’t expect them to rebox newer models with square and round bases in them.

they themselves said they where not going to mix between the two system during the FAQ. Also keep in mind that the supported faction in OW may not be already at launch either.

Edited July 20, 2023 by novakai

[CDM]

I  mentioned  the other day that I think chaos needs a whole reimagining of their battletomes.

with beasts put into their respective battletomes, new pestigors in maggotkin, new khornegors in BoK. Scrap most of the rest of the range and leave in TOW and bring in Ulgugors, Gyrangors etc. Keep cygor and ghorgon and bring in some other big beasts like new Shaggoth (one of my fave models) and dragon ogors.

[MitGas]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It seems to me that GW is actively trying to limit the possibility of crossplay between TOW and AoS. Their goal very much seems to be to keep the two games as separate as possible. That's why I believe that TOW Beastmen and AoS Beasts of Chaos will have a pretty clear and distinct split in the near future.

Would be a stupid move but who knows, there are people at GW that are all for stupid ideas...

[Clan's Cynic]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It seems to me that GW is actively trying to limit the possibility of crossplay between TOW and AoS. Their goal very much seems to be to keep the two games as separate as possible. That's why I believe that TOW Beastmen and AoS Beasts of Chaos will have a pretty clear and distinct split in the near future.

Judging by the way GW has been going out of their way to sever the link between Horus Heresy and 40k kits, it's not the wildest theory and would be consistent with the way they've been treating the two lines recently. That's despite the kits being far more readily available and for cheaper than ever, meaning the sensible move would be to push them more.

Nevermind that many, if not most of those 'Horus Heresy' kits originally started as models and rules for a 40k supplement.

GW yet again proving success is something they stumble into, in spite of themselves. 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

They probably using the old chaos models for Old world that were replace when Slaves to Darkness came out. They probably will not outright use the AoS models for the old world even in promotion bits and crossplay will just be on people proxying. I don’t expect them to rebox newer models with square and round bases in them.

they themselves said they where not going to mix between the two system during the FAQ. Also keep in mind that the supported faction in OW may not be already at launch either.

Excuse me, but this seems like a bad decision to make. You have modern sculpts from 2023, whose art direction is noticeably interchangeable and unchanged from TOW to AoS, from one of the most iconic WFB units, and you would not use it ? Because it's "Age of Sigmar" ? And use models , from the 00s of the exact same unit instead because it was there when 8th edition was around ? This seems ludicrous to me. 

Chaos Warriors are still Chaos Warriors, whichever setting they come from. Selling the old models while the new ones exist would just be confusing for the costumer bases (why is there 2 versions of the same unit, and why is one of them inferior detail/pose wise to the other ?) and would make the Old World players rightfully angry they're being sold old models under their brand because "its Old World" while we AoS players bask in the glorious new plastic.

And btw, the new Chaos Warriors perfectly fit on square bases. You could line them up perfectly fine with the bigger sizes in TOW.

[RyantheFett]

The Old World still seems so confusing and wish we really had more info for it. Really just seems like they will see all their old stock at marked up prices right now lol. They have really talked about old metal and resin models a lot.

As for Sigmar how much unit and factions still use the old models outside Cities? After the HH it does seem like they want to really separate their games as much as possible.............

Edited July 20, 2023 by RyantheFett

[novakai]

2 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Excuse me, but this seems like a bad decision to make. You have modern sculpts from 2023, whose art direction is noticeably interchangeable and unchanged from TOW to AoS, from one of the most iconic WFB units, and you would not use it ? Because it's "Age of Sigmar" ? And use models , from the 00s of the exact same unit instead because it was there when 8th edition was around ? This seems ludicrous to me. 

Chaos Warriors are still Chaos Warriors, whichever setting they come from. Selling the old models while the new ones exist would just be confusing for the costumer bases (why is there 2 versions of the same unit, and why is one of them inferior detail/pose wise to the other ?) and would make the Old World players rightfully angry they're being sold old models under their brand because "its Old World" while we AoS players bask in the glorious new plastic.

And btw, the new Chaos Warriors perfectly fit on square bases. You could line them up perfectly fine with the bigger sizes in TOW.

A lot of chatter implies they are bring back a lot of old models for this game (plastic, resin, and metal) and that it more of a nostalgia grab then anything else

take it for what you will but I don’t think they are going to do much if any cross play between the two system or it nothing they will physically do and it up to the individual buyers in the end

[Ogregut]

Why would they want to do models that can be used in both games? 

They want to sell as many models to as many people as possible. 

While people will of course use AoS models in TOW and TOW in AoS, GW isn't going to officially encourage it. 

[Gitzdee]

1 hour ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Excuse me, but this seems like a bad decision to make. You have modern sculpts from 2023, whose art direction is noticeably interchangeable and unchanged from TOW to AoS, from one of the most iconic WFB units, and you would not use it ? Because it's "Age of Sigmar" ? And use models , from the 00s of the exact same unit instead because it was there when 8th edition was around ? This seems ludicrous to me. 

Chaos Warriors are still Chaos Warriors, whichever setting they come from. Selling the old models while the new ones exist would just be confusing for the costumer bases (why is there 2 versions of the same unit, and why is one of them inferior detail/pose wise to the other ?) and would make the Old World players rightfully angry they're being sold old models under their brand because "its Old World" while we AoS players bask in the glorious new plastic.

And btw, the new Chaos Warriors perfectly fit on square bases. You could line them up perfectly fine with the bigger sizes in TOW.

Just want to touch on the fact that they are using the old Treeman for Wood Elves and the new one for Sylvaneth. 

This is just my personal opinion. I would like 2 different styles between the 2 systems. Let TOW be the nostalgia trip it wants to be and let AoS be the modern game it wants to be.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Gitzdee said:

Just want to touch on the fact that they are using the old Treeman for Wood Elves and the new one for Sylvaneth. 

This is just my personal opinion. I would like 2 different styles between the 2 systems. Let TOW be the nostalgia trip it wants to be and let AoS be the modern game it wants to be.

I‘d prefer both to have new sculpts, it would keep TOW fresh.

[Ganigumo]

Trying to sell people stuff like metal treelords, and resin chaos chosen, when they themselves produce models that are higher quality versions of them, is ridiculous. I know people have a generally low opinion of GW, but suggesting that's what they are going to do is basically accusing them of self-sabotage.

[Gitzdee]

9 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Trying to sell people stuff like metal treelords, and resin chaos chosen, when they themselves produce models that are higher quality versions of them, is ridiculous. I know people have a generally low opinion of GW, but suggesting that's what they are going to do is basically accusing them of self-sabotage.

I think thats is whats happening. Whfb kits go for a lot of money, its ridiculous. I think they just want a piece of the pie and not spend AoS resources on this side project. I think they want to keep their options open and be able to drop this whole thing if it flops. Worst case they sold a lot of old kits for double the money they used to be. Win win for GW. Best case this is taking off and the make even more money.

Edit: Dont want to be mr negative but i dont think TOW will be an Underworlds or Warcry that is an add-on to AoS. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Gitzdee

[Ejecutor]

6 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Excuse me, but this seems like a bad decision to make. You have modern sculpts from 2023, whose art direction is noticeably interchangeable and unchanged from TOW to AoS, from one of the most iconic WFB units, and you would not use it ? Because it's "Age of Sigmar" ? And use models , from the 00s of the exact same unit instead because it was there when 8th edition was around ? This seems ludicrous to me. 

Chaos Warriors are still Chaos Warriors, whichever setting they come from. Selling the old models while the new ones exist would just be confusing for the costumer bases (why is there 2 versions of the same unit, and why is one of them inferior detail/pose wise to the other ?) and would make the Old World players rightfully angry they're being sold old models under their brand because "its Old World" while we AoS players bask in the glorious new plastic.

And btw, the new Chaos Warriors perfectly fit on square bases. You could line them up perfectly fine with the bigger sizes in TOW.

Never forget that they confirmed that TOW models would include plastic, resin and metal. Yes, metal. They painted miniatures for TOW with models that have new sculps in AoS, like the Wolf Rides. Those new AoS ones could be easily used or adapted to replace the old WHF ones, but they used the old ones instead. This means to me that they go full in with older models.

Also, I am from a country where WHF was pretty popular, easily one of the top 3 in terms of popularity, and here there's a bunch of WHF players that don't like AoS nor they new "too detailed" models, so makes sense to me that units like Chaos Warriors get their old kits back rather than using the new ones. Even if the new ones fit in the Square Bases. It would be a way to satisfy everyone's taste and lets be honest. Selling back WHF models is almost free money.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Ejecutor
Typo

[Ogregut]

Also don't forget, even tho GW will be selling old models, there is nothing stopping anyone using a more modern sculpt if one exists. 

I plan on adding the new goblin wolf riders to my orcs and goblins, an army which is made up of models from 4th edition through to 8th edition warhammer. 

Also, just because they are releasing old models it doesn't mean they won't get updated at some time in the future. 

I would much rather they release a load of old models so everyone can get gaming rather than having to wait until the army is worked on. 

I wouldnt be surprised if a article in the future gives a list of what is coming back, I think it's one of the biggest questions people have at the moment. 

[Wraith]

8 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Judging by the way GW has been going out of their way to sever the link between Horus Heresy and 40k kits, it's not the wildest theory and would be consistent with the way they've been treating the two lines recently. That's despite the kits being far more readily available and for cheaper than ever, meaning the sensible move would be to push them more.

Nevermind that many, if not most of those 'Horus Heresy' kits originally started as models and rules for a 40k supplement.

GW yet again proving success is something they stumble into, in spite of themselves. 

So ToW will be a sort of Legends, but with rules.

[novakai]

I think what’s stop people from doing it is the ease does not exist by the system and that extra work will cause only the small minority of players doing it in the end

plus since the base is in different shape it probably there not an easy comitment  for player unlike HH  where they use the same base sizes for both system. Basing AoS mini on square bases just to play it in old world is probably done by thoose who want to put the effort in doing so.

but then again GW show there intention pretty clearly when they said the target audience was  players with existing armies and not the greater audience. It could be that even old models are not readily available and in production like how middle earth is.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

2 hours ago, novakai said:

but then again GW show there intention pretty clearly when they said the target audience was  players with existing armies and not the greater audience. It could be that even old models are not readily available and in production like how middle earth is.

I think comparing TOW to MESBG is a great way to explain what TOW will be. Both will be "side" games under the specialist games umbrella, with a range of core old plastic/resin/metal minis, that gets new plastic miniatures once in a while, and a lot of resin characters and units via Forge World. 

[Mandzak-Miniatures]

Regardless of what models fall on either side of the line, it’s the bases between TOW and AOS that make it a huge difference.

40k and HH share the same bases and cross compatibility and using the same figures is easy.. 

imagine the rage HH had squares or triangles

[Wraith]

46 minutes ago, Mandzak-Miniatures said:

Regardless of what models fall on either side of the line, it’s the bases between TOW and AOS that make it a huge difference.

40k and HH share the same bases and cross compatibility and using the same figures is easy.. 

imagine the rage HH had squares or triangles

Good point. They should have used hex bases in HH. The design team really dropped the ball on that one and missed a golden opportunity to annoy a whole bunch of people.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I‘d prefer both to have new sculpts, it would keep TOW fresh.

When it comes down to it, I think that is what most people would prefer. And maybe that is what the game will become 10 years down the line.

You have to wonder how much the designers behind TOW had to fight the corporate decision makers to even get a chance to revive the Warhammer Fantasy line. I don't imagine the creatives behind the game are excited that the game will start out relying massively on old sculpts. I think that decision is likely entirely business-driven.

From a business point of view, the value of TOW seems clear. It keeps the Warhammer Fantasy IP alive and it keeps old model kits in production longer. They could have gone a different way with it. They could have made the models cross-compatible with AoS like Warcry and Underworlds. But keeping them separate incentivizes players to actually buy the old kits they are bringing back, so that decision also makes sense, business-wise.

I am not massively excited about this, personally. I still think starting with fewer armies, but giving them all new models and making the game more beginner friendly would have been better than appealing to old, established players and their nostalgia. But if this is what it takes to get the game made at all, I guess we will just have to see how it plays out and whether we actually get a few cool, new sculpts in the coming years.

[Ogregut]

52 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I am not massively excited about this, personally. I still think starting with fewer armies, but giving them all new models and making the game more beginner friendly would have been better than appealing to old, established players and their nostalgia. But if this is what it takes to get the game made at all, I guess we will just have to see how it plays out and whether we actually get a few cool, new sculpts in the coming years.

Doing if your way is not a great decision either business wise or for gamers. They only have so much production capacity and even if they only start with 4 armies that's a lot of resources. 

Let's not forget, 40k and AoS armies  roughly get 3-4 major releases a year with roughly on avarage 10 new kits. 

Warhammer armies have much bigger rosters than AoS, so there is no way they could release all new models for a number of models at once. 

Releasing old models makes sense as it buys them time, people can get playing and models can get replaced in time. 

I also think you underestimate rhe power of nostalgia, look at how many painters and gamers returned during lock down when they found old models in the attic, the amount of money GW made shows the power of nostalgia. 

[Snarff]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

appealing to old, established players and their nostalgia

Isn't that what this is mostly about though? New players (unless they come via TWW which I haven't seen many people make the jump to actual miniature buying from) already have a great system and setting with AoS.

[KingKull]

If GW does the (imho) incredibly daft thing of returning old models where 1:1 updates exist, sometimes even from the WHFB era (current treeman says hello), I hope that people simply use the newer models en masse and GW gets to a point where it can't ignore the trend and simply goes with the flow.

Also, I'm not buying the claim that new chaos warriors are noticeably more detailed/harder to paint then the old ones, especially in an era where contrasts exist.

On a side note, I realize I'm looking forward to ToW not just because I like the setting, but also because of the simplicity and expected lack of change of the game's core.

While I find AoS enjoyable when played with like-minded opponents, I'm at a point in my life where I just can't keep up with the constant flow of rules, updates, missions & whatnot.

Even though the core of WHFB is crunchier, that crunchiness makes games where two armies simply deploy across each other with the main objective just being to kill the opponent more enjoyable. And once you learn the crunch, it (hopefully) never changes (significantly).

And when I only play one game of Warhammer (of any flavor) a month at best, all the missions, grand strategies, objectives etc. are too much of a bother to learn and remember in order to play a game competently, which I like to do.