The Rumour Thread

[Overread]

My only surprise is that the DoK team doesn't have a spell to use offensively or debuff/buff wise.

That said shadowleap is very interesting. Being able to do it every single turn instead of regular movement is a very interesting way to make a very hit and run type unit that has a huge capacity to really mess with your opponent. They also have that mix of ranged and close combat attacks which makes them a neat close range skirmisher unit. The only downside of them is they can't appear and shoot. With a 6 inch range and 9 inches from the enemy that does limit their ranged attacks a bit. 

Overall interesting, will be curious to see their unit price. 

 

[Marcvs]

11 minutes ago, JPjr said:

AoS rules for the new warbands

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/21/warcry-shadowstalkers-and-scions-in-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Twitter&utm_campaign=WarcryAosRules21Oct2020&utm_content=WarcryAosRules21Oct2020

Shadowstalkers having only 6" range is 🤷‍♂️

Edited October 21, 2020 by Marcvs

[Scurvydog]

4 minutes ago, JPjr said:

All your questions answered... AoS rules for the new warbands

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/21/warcry-shadowstalkers-and-scions-in-warhammer-age-of-sigmar/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Twitter&utm_campaign=WarcryAosRules21Oct2020&utm_content=WarcryAosRules21Oct2020

Like with the underworld DoK warband, DoK gets a cool unique unit that actually does something useful the army couldn't do, they got the Haq bodyguard unit then and now gets a teleporting unit with some decent attacks and built in surviveability.

StD gets another completely useless cultist warband, for some reason GW seems to have some marathon going on how to make as many cool new units absolutely trash in AoS. Only the untamed beats being used for no other purpose than pre game movement to die to alpha strikers.

I would really like same kind of explanation on why all the cultist units needs to be so incredibly poor, they do not even have marks of chaos to benefit from the armies allegiance ability at all!

[Overread]

I still think the main issue with the STD cultist units is that GW hasn't given them the same benefits that marauders have - ergo marks. I don't mind them being cultist style and having them weaker chaff units with some flare; but its the lack of marks that holds them back. It's also odd because the lore clearly shows that the warbands can be worshipping any one of the gods. It's almost like its a huge oversight. 

If they gave them the marks and brought them up a bit the only threat is that people would stop buying the cheaper older marauders. 

 

 

[Overread]

7 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

Shadowstalkers having only 6" range is 🤷‍♂️

I figure its to stop them just appearing and shooting every turn. Their intention is clearly to get into close combat rather than appear-snipe and run. The ranged attack is an added threat, but not their primary focus. 

[BaylorCorvette]

12 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Like with the underworld DoK warband, DoK gets a cool unique unit that actually does something useful the army couldn't do, they got the Haq bodyguard unit then and now gets a teleporting unit with some decent attacks and built in surviveability.

StD gets another completely useless cultist warband, for some reason GW seems to have some marathon going on how to make as many cool new units absolutely trash in AoS. Only the untamed beats being used for no other purpose than pre game movement to die to alpha strikers.

I would really like same kind of explanation on why all the cultist units needs to be so incredibly poor, they do not even have marks of chaos to benefit from the armies allegiance ability at all!

100% agree. I was REALLY hoping that the Scions would actually be useful. Just think if they were the ones that had the teleport ability. Not only would that change things for StD but also all Chaos factions. However, maybe that is the reason that the Chaos warbands suck so much. GW knows that it would have a larger ripple effect than other factions warbands. I don't know, I'm just trying to see some logic as to why we cannot have a really cool StD warband that isn't hot garbage.

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Overread said:

I figure its to stop them just appearing and shooting every turn. Their intention is clearly to get into close combat rather than appear-snipe and run. The ranged attack is an added threat, but not their primary focus. 

Oh I am not contesting the "balance" reason for that, just the text they published to present the rules, which specifically says that after getting in position with Shadow Leap they would be able to "bring the pain" at range

[KingBrodd]

Warcry Catacombs Map.

[Scurvydog]

5 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

100% agree. I was REALLY hoping that the Scions would actually be useful. Just think if they were the ones that had the teleport ability. Not only would that change things for StD but also all Chaos factions. However, maybe that is the reason that the Chaos warbands suck so much. GW knows that it would have a larger ripple effect than other factions warbands. I don't know, I'm just trying to see some logic as to why we cannot have a really cool StD warband that isn't hot garbage.

Like this guy, he has 1 attack with 4+/4+... The new Scion ultra cool flame samurai also has a staggering 2 attacks with 4+/4+... The DoK leader has 3 attacks with d3 damage, why couldn't chaos get that?

[BaylorCorvette]

Would be nice to have seen in addition to what they already have, whenever the Scions roll an unmodified 6+ save in the combat phase, they do a mortal wound back. Representing the scorching heat coming off of them.

[novakai]

I think in the end they are design for Warcry in mind and not suppose to be compellingly units in AoS and I think they do that purposely

[Overread]

I don't know. I think GW wants them to be cultist type models and so weaker. They aren't trying to make them compete with Chaos Warriors, knights and such. The Warcry bands are designed to be weaker chaff. The issue is they keep making them just a touch too weak for many. I think with the right buff or adjustment they could be decently powerful; without coming to dominate the army. 

[Scurvydog]

3 minutes ago, novakai said:

I think in the end they are design for Warcry in mind and not suppose to be compellingly units in AoS and I think they do that purposely

I would agree if:

1. The other warbands were useless too, but they are actually quite interesting for DoK.

2. Cultists are an integrated part of the StD battletome and showcased everywhere as they are cool models, but they are absolute trash in game.

If you put rules, warscrolls, images etc in a battletome for AoS, there is not excuse that they should be useless junk because they were originally made for a spinoff game, that makes no sense at all. The rules are so poor it seems spiteful actually, they must be aware that they are releasing the weakest warscrolls in the game for models people are quite hyped about.

[BaylorCorvette]

20 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

I would agree if:

1. The other warbands were useless too, but they are actually quite interesting for DoK.

2. Cultists are an integrated part of the StD battletome and showcased everywhere as they are cool models, but they are absolute trash in game.

If you put rules, warscrolls, images etc in a battletome for AoS, there is not excuse that they should be useless junk because they were originally made for a spinoff game, that makes no sense at all. The rules are so poor it seems spiteful actually, they must be aware that they are releasing the weakest warscrolls in the game for models people are quite hyped about.

My initial  thought was "yeah these are really designed for Warcry so they aren't really making an effort for AoS." However, the DoK ones are actually very useful, but I suppose GW could make them cost a ton of points that it would make it very wasteful to take them but I don't think they will. Like Overread mentioned earlier, if the cultists could take Chaos god specific Marks it would make them more compelling to take. 

[Dawnmane]

22 minutes ago, Overread said:

I don't know. I think GW wants them to be cultist type models and so weaker. They aren't trying to make them compete with Chaos Warriors, knights and such. The Warcry bands are designed to be weaker chaff. The issue is they keep making them just a touch too weak for many. I think with the right buff or adjustment they could be decently powerful; without coming to dominate the army. 

Lore-wise, this is really important. I originally migrated from Necromunda to Warcry, and in that framework it made complete sense. The Necromunda gangs are so weak compared to military soldiers that they would scream in horror if a squad of space marines descended upon them. Optimally, that's how Chaos warbands should work in Warcry as well. GW kind of messed this up by adding all the non-Chaos warbands in a way that didn't reflect this. I think Stormcast, for instance, should have been twice as expensive as they are now in Warcry, and really be 2-3 model warbands. That would have fit the story so much better, and the same would go for Ironjawz, Fyreslayers etc. Freeguild could have stayed comparable to Warcry Chaos warbands and the game would have been a lot cooler for it.

[sandlemad]

The idea that they're intended to be chaff doesn't really hold up when they're bigger, tougher and considerably more interesting models than e.g. chaos marauders. Feels more like a post-hoc justification when despite the background in the tome, they're all serious looking fighters, much more so than their older equivalents. Cultists works loosely as a term but hardly seems particularly relevant to the Iron Golems or the Untamed Beasts. Hell, by the background most Spire Tyrants should be more like veterans than many chaos warriors.

The rules are just sloppy and poorly integrated into the battletome, like an afterthought. It's not really an issue of them competing with chaos warriors, it's that they've minimal synergy with anything else and are completely locked into a slapdash "units must be exactly as in the box, no options, no variation" mindset, above and beyond what you get with regular AoS units.

And for WHU units, fine, I kind of get that. They're much more obviously meant for WHU with use in an AoS army a distant second option. Warcry warbands though, they shouldn't be an afterthought. They were clearly always intended to be stepping stones for a chaos army and are highlighted repeatedly in the StD battletome. It smarts a lot more knowing that they're meant to be functional in AoS but are badly let down by poorly thought out rules.

That it's a failure and not intentional is made clear to me by the fact that a starting StD player (assuming they haven't played Warcry) is much better off getting a box of 20 cheaper, older chaos marauders rather than the more expensive box of 16-ish Warcry dudes. They're incentivised away from the new hotness not just because of price but because of the rules. In GW's eyes that has to be a problem.

I still think the better choice would have been for GW to retire to ugly old marauder kit and make a new warscroll with sufficient customisability to account for the eight warbands. You want marauders, you have your choice of eight different boxes. Collect Warcry, hey, that's a solid core of an StD force. They should have just sidestepped the whole mixed loadout thing, which is already implemented in a boring and inconsequential way, and allowed for various upgrades relating to armour, esoteric or regular missile weapons, movement shenanigans, the presence of a war-beast (the ogre breacher, the Ghurish lion). Something like that worked for the ogre Maneaters and would work here. Demands less space in the battletome, still encourages folks with old marauders to get the new kits, makes it easier to integrate into everything else. It's out of favour as GW's current slavishly model-linked design style but it would be much better as an approach.

Edited October 21, 2020 by sandlemad

[JPjr]

I've thought from the start that what the Warcry war bands need is a hero that directly interacts with the CULTISTS keyword and can buff them in some fun and thematic way

a chaos priest or something along those lines, it would make loads of sense and tbh I was fully expecting them to bring one out when they did the StD battle tome last year but... well the new models were fantastic but it was hardly an overwhelmingly huge range was it.

especially as around the same time in 40K CSM got the brilliant little Dark Apostle/Dark Disciple models

[BaylorCorvette]

When the Scions models were revealed I was so excited for them, they really do look amazing. But given their sorry excuse for a Warscroll I guess I am going to end up kit bashing / converting them to be used as either Marauders or maybe a special Hero or something. I don't play Warcry so changing base sizes isn't a problem for me but it is still disappointing.

[Dawnmane]

32 minutes ago, JPjr said:

I've thought from the start that what the Warcry war bands need is a hero that directly interacts with the CULTISTS keyword and can buff them in some fun and thematic way

a chaos priest or something along those lines, it would make loads of sense and tbh I was fully expecting them to bring one out when they did the StD battle tome last year but... well the new models were fantastic but it was hardly an overwhelmingly huge range was it.

especially as around the same time in 40K CSM got the brilliant little Dark Apostle/Dark Disciple models

• such a good idea- Some sort of prophet to call them to the Path to Glory. Or maybe someone with the power to pick them for Chaos Warrior training so that they'll fight better to get noticed.

[sandlemad]

38 minutes ago, JPjr said:

I've thought from the start that what the Warcry war bands need is a hero that directly interacts with the CULTISTS keyword and can buff them in some fun and thematic way

a chaos priest or something along those lines, it would make loads of sense and tbh I was fully expecting them to bring one out when they did the StD battle tome last year but... well the new models were fantastic but it was hardly an overwhelmingly huge range was it.

especially as around the same time in 40K CSM got the brilliant little Dark Apostle/Dark Disciple models

I think in theory that's meant to be the Darkoath Warqueen and chieftain as well as the ogroid myrmidon, it's just that they don't do very much.

[pixieproxy]

Hell, depending on the points the DoK warscroll could make good allies for other Order factions, with their teleport. And that just makes the situation with the Chaos warbands worse tbh, the fact that the Khainites are actually decent.

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, pixieproxy said:

Hell, depending on the points the DoK warscroll could make good allies for other Order factions, with their teleport.

I really doubt they will be more point-efficient than tree revenants for that role, and I am not sure there's many factions who can ally with DoK and not with Sylvaneth

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, JPjr said:

I've thought from the start that what the Warcry war bands need is a hero that directly interacts with the CULTISTS keyword and can buff them in some fun and thematic way

a chaos priest or something along those lines, it would make loads of sense and tbh I was fully expecting them to bring one out when they did the StD battle tome last year but... well the new models were fantastic but it was hardly an overwhelmingly huge range was it.

especially as around the same time in 40K CSM got the brilliant little Dark Apostle/Dark Disciple models

Ogroid myrmidon does that (badly) 

[Lucentia]

If it was up to me I'd just replace the Chaos Marauders wholesale with the Warcry bands, the models are so much better it's painful, though that does present the issue of having slightly odd unit sizes.  I'd probably just have it as a single 'cultist' warscroll and you can mix and match the warband models for a ragtag look if you're so inclined though I recognise that's not really how GW does rules.

[Overread]

See I'm shocked they keep Marauders around. I'd have done likewise - strip the Marauders and have the warbands replace them fully. Especially as they appear to be pushing Warcry to become Killteam of AoS as a gateway game to the main game (far more so than Underworlds). DoK getting a warband along with the other factions that are geting warband building sets confirms that GW is pretty much going that pathway.