Clinch Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 It's going to be interesting to see which of the weapon options would be optimal to equip them with now. I'm glad they simplified the scroll as it was very overcomplicated before, but it does feel like a small nerf at least. I guess we'll have the math for it soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umjammerlama Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Would people arm them with blades or stave and blades? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laststand Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Darkhan said: Imo, you still want them in 40, since the removed the rerolling hits:/ So you get the +1 hit +1 wound buff. Of course! I forgot that. So 40 with blades are kicking out 3at on the charge 2+, 3+. That is still very good. Edited December 18, 2019 by Laststand Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrycontra Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 I love the new warscroll. It makes playing plaguemonks gazillion times faster while still keeping them as glass cannon infantry. High saves hurt them but like I said earlier in this thread, so it should. Also as a side note, verminlord corruptor's command ability just became much more useful, since now plague monks with blades don't have hit rerolls by default. Also this also makes censer bearers more useful (not competetive still probably) since they have rend while plague monks don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterJoshua Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Laststand said: Of course! I forgot that. So 40 with blades are kicking out 3at on the charge 2+, 3+. That is still very good. Your point about small units is valid though. Units of 10 are better now than before, even if Monks in general function better in bigger numbers. Edited December 18, 2019 by MisterJoshua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drcrabs Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Hello fellow rats! First time posting, getting back into the hobby with Skaven but wanted to wait until after this winter faq to post here. After all changes this was the list I was going to run except I was going to use vigordust injector but decided to switch to skavenbrew to regain some monk attacks. Let me know what you guys think, yes-yes! Allegiance: SkaventideLeadersArch-Warlock (160)- General- Trait: Overseer of Destruction- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power! Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy- Artifact: Skavenbrew Plague Priest on Furnace (200)Battleline20 x Clanrats (120)- Blades20 x Clanrats (120)- Blades20 x Clanrats (120)- BladesUnits40 x Plague Monks (280)- Blade & Woe Staves40 x Plague Monks (280)- Blade & Woe Staves20 x Skryre Acolytes (240)4 x 1 Ratling Gun (240) 2,000 points on the dot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Well looking at the changes I guess stormvermins are still a worse option to take instead of plague monks. Although I do like the simple change that makes those plague monks so mich easier to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Yeah.. I'm kind of with everyone here, especially with the math from @Ineffectual Clawlord showing it a bit better. I largely stopped using Monks due to the bookkeeping aspect of them, and they're much easier to play now. I'm still not sure if I really want to run them, but I'll give them a go a few times and see how they work out. This change really does open my eyes to Stormvermins overcosting even more. I would like for them to be higher than Monks obviously, but 400 for 40 is still... odd. I briefly considered running 20 after this change but the damage still doesn't seem to be there compared to 40 Monks for 40 more points. Oh well. For now, I'll consider running this as an alternative comp build: Spoiler Allegiance: SkaventideLeadersGrey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)- General- Trait: Master of Magic- Lore of Ruin: Death FrenzyWarlock Engineer (100)- Artefact: Vigordust Injector- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!Warlock Engineer (100)- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!Grey Seer (140)- Lore of Ruin: SkitterleapBattleline40 x Clanrats (200)- Rusty Blade40 x Clanrats (200)- Rusty Blade20 x Clanrats (120)- Rusty BladeUnits40 x Plague Monks (280)- Woe-stave6 x Stormfiends (520)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsWarp Lightning Vortex (100)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 204 I somewhat considered dropping the Monks for 20 Gutter Runners + a Bridge for the Fiends but... yeah, Eshin still can't compete unfortunately. With the change to the Fiends it really just allows me to take a Grey Seer to Skitterleap an Engineer for WLV. An alternative to that is 6 Jezzails for hero sniping, but to be honest I can usually kill those same squishy 5-6 wound hero's with some decent rolls T1\2 with the WLV anyway and having the Grey Seer around for -1 to hit is nice to have. We'll see how it does... I've been busy playing OBR but I'll probably take a break for a little bit and run Skaven for awhile and working out the kinks on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkhan Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 @Gwendar have you ever tried a Verminlord Deceiver with a gnawbomb? To get 40 monks behind enemy lines? Been toying with the idea these couple days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Congratz Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 People still think Stormfiends are good in units of 6? I can see why one would rather use Jezzails now What about Plague Monks? Still worth using? Skryre Acolytes might be better now with that 20" threat range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, Darkhan said: @Gwendar have you ever tried a Verminlord Deceiver with a gnawbomb? To get 40 monks behind enemy lines? Been toying with the idea these couple days. I considered it but never really care to try it as they still need to make a long charge and without Cogs I find it to risky. I can just march them up with the Bell and that tends to work well enough. The only reason I can see to take my Deceiver now is the only way I've ever used him; In my magic list with a SoJ Corruptor that it can Dreaded Skitterleap. Not to say that idea isn't bad as a lot of people were doing it with Monks\Fiends but just not something I care as much for.@Congratz 6 Fiends fully buffed are still going to do (basic math here unlike some of you other mathy types who can give more accurate results 😉) around 30 damage on average with Cannons + Launchers; Jezzails will never hit close to that mark. I think running 6 Fiends and 6 or 9 Jezzails to supplement is a great idea now though as Jezzails don't need MMMWP. Acolytes are still... a tough choice I think because there's now no confusion that they need to be on 32's. They obliterate things, but I don't think you should run them along with Fiends as both units wants to be fully buffed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkhan Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Gwendar said: I considered it but never really care to try it as they still need to make a long charge and without Cogs I find it to risky. I can just march them up with the Bell and that tends to work well enough. The only reason I can see to take my Deceiver now is the only way I've ever used him; In my magic list with a SoJ Corruptor that it can Dreaded Skitterleap. Not to say that idea isn't bad as a lot of people were doing it with Monks\Fiends but just not something I care as much for.@Congratz 6 Fiends fully buffed are still going to do (basic math here unlike some of you other mathy types who can give more accurate results 😉) around 30 damage on average with Cannons + Launchers; Jezzails will never hit close to that mark. I think running 6 Fiends and 6 or 9 Jezzails to supplement is a great idea now though as Jezzails don't need MMMWP. Acolytes are still... a tough choice I think because there's now no confusion that they need to be on 32's. They obliterate things, but I don't think you should run them along with Fiends as both units wants to be fully buffed. Woah, you can actually fit 9 jezzailz, with 6 fiends. Bell - 240 Engineer - 100 3x20 clan rats - 120,120,120 9 jezzails - 420 6 stormfiends - 520 40 plague monks - 280 Soulscream bridge - 80 2000 points on the dot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Congratz Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 @Gwendar Ahh okay i see. I never got to use 9 fiends, i bought the last 3 this weekend and then the FAQ hit I was thinking about going with this list: Spoiler Allegiance: SkaventideLeadersArch-Warlock (160)- General- Trait: Deranged Inventor- Artefact: Vigordust Injector- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!Verminlord Warpseer (320)Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)- Lore of Ruin: WarpgaleBattleline40 x Clanrats (200)- Rusty Blade20 x Clanrats (120)- Rusty Blade20 x Clanrats (120)- Rusty BladeUnits40 x Plague Monks (280)- Foetid Blades6 x Stormfiends (520)Total: 1960/ 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 187 I just don't know if the 40 Monks are worth it anymore! Sure if they are buffed with +1 Attack/reroll hit and Wound but without im not so sure. I really don't know what to do about it! see your point with not using Acolytes with stormfiends. Also: Is Warpseer and Bell still worth the +20 points? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 @Darkhan Yep, you can, although I don't know if I would. I like having the redundancy of 2 Engineers for MMMWP. 60 Clanrats is alright, but the loss of wounds from losing 3 Stormfiends I find I want at least 100 at all times now.@Congratz I really don't know if they are either anymore... hence why I'm going to test it out but I really want to have a decent melee unit in there (but I won't rant about Vermin anymore 😉) but it may be worth it to just go pure shooting aside from Clanrats. I find both still worth their points, absolutely. Though I still would never use them together, personally. I would rather have Engineer redundancy as stated above. Once you lose MMMWP that pretty much kills Fiends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 Why do people keep saying you need 'full buffs' to make Acolytes worth it? You can easily get them up to 3s to hit and 4s to wound simply by having 30 of them with -2 and D3 damage. The only worry is that they might not be fast enough to get fully in range of what they want to kill. Even then, they're going to kill whatever they attack regardless. Same 6+ save plague monks have, hardly any work when rolling. They're simply hard to obtain, but things like this (Scroll down to the priests) and this (They're not even hiding who they're marketing these to) exist if you don't want to convert? I think they're pretty solid. They will absolutely hurt anything they touch and are great to have around in case the fiends get focused down. Just skitterleap the engineer to the acolytes and buff them instead! I think an alternate is to simply have a second engineer nearby? List I'm going to be putting together around march when that second link starts selling again: Warpseer Bell Rocket Rat x3x20 Clan Rats x6 Stormfiends x30 Acolytes Bridge Leaves 20 spare points which I could switch over to a second engineer for redundancy I think. In case the bombardier dies or vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 14 minutes ago, Vesper said: (They're not even hiding who they're marketing these to) Oh boy, I think that one qualifies for some kind of copyright infringement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vesper said: Why do people keep saying you need 'full buffs' to make Acolytes worth it? You can easily get them up to 3s to hit and 4s to wound simply by having 30 of them with -2 and D3 damage. The only worry is that they might not be fast enough to get fully in range of what they want to kill. Even then, they're going to kill whatever they attack regardless. Same 6+ save plague monks have, hardly any work when rolling. They're simply hard to obtain, but things like this (Scroll down to the priests) and this (They're not even hiding who they're marketing these to) exist if you don't want to convert? I think they're pretty solid. They will absolutely hurt anything they touch and are great to have around in case the fiends get focused down. Just skitterleap the engineer to the acolytes and buff them instead! I think an alternate is to simply have a second engineer nearby? I mean... you don't need full buffs, sure. You could easily just give them Deranged Inventor and a Spark from an Engineer.. Vigordust too if you want. The problem I tend to have is I like to work in little 'power pairs' as coined by a few others. Monks pair with the Death Frenzy of a Bell and give me a melee option which I don't get with Acolytes who also are vying for the attention of an Engineer the same way the Fiends are. Another problem I have is those 32mm bases means less can get in T1. Unbuffed 20 are only doing ~11 damage (before Spark) if shooting at a unit with 10+ models.. fully buffed 20 of them are throwing out 24 damage (before Spark), which is less than that of 6 buffed up Fiends. All of this is assumed a targets save is 4+. Points cost is obviously way different there, but the point stands that if I wanted to buff one or the other I'm going to pick Fiends and at that point I don't see a reason to take 20 Acolytes who are only going to put out ~11 damage. That said I do see some value in exclusively using them to blow up weak save hordes but they can obviously do any job well. Fiends already have an 18"-30" threat range and you could easily have the Launchers killing a support hero\elite unit while the Cannons murder a horde. The issue I have with Acolytes split firing is that unless you have that math worked out and assume averages, it has the potential to be far worse in practice. Like I said, I'll try running a lot of stuff over the coming months in prep for a few tournaments I'm going to next year but I think Monks still need to be looked at as a viable option. Edited December 18, 2019 by Gwendar 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkhan Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 @Gwendar did you ever do your skaven magic list in a tourney? If so, how did it go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 4 minutes ago, Darkhan said: @Gwendar did you ever do your skaven magic list in a tourney? If so, how did it go Just some of the local stuff.. nothing big, but I did get 1st a couple times (anywhere from 6-10 people) but a few games were scraped by. The issue with the list is that it has potential to do a lot of damage but.. a few spells absolutely must go off or it does nothing at all for a turn. The good thing is that it has decent board control with the Clanrats and it generally doesn't matter if I'm made to go 1st or 2nd; I can punish most armies either way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 47 minutes ago, Gwendar said: I mean... you don't need full buffs, sure. You could easily just give them Deranged Inventor and a Spark from an Engineer.. Vigordust too if you want. The problem I tend to have is I like to work in little 'power pairs' as coined by a few others. Monks pair with the Death Frenzy of a Bell and give me a melee option which I don't get with Acolytes who also are vying for the attention of an Engineer the same way the Fiends are. Another problem I have is those 32mm bases means less can get in T1. Unbuffed 20 are only doing ~11 damage (before Spark) if shooting at a unit with 10+ models.. fully buffed 20 of them are throwing out 24 damage (before Spark), which is less than that of 6 buffed up Fiends. All of this is assumed a targets save is 4+. Points cost is obviously way different there, but the point stands that if I wanted to buff one or the other I'm going to pick Fiends and at that point I don't see a reason to take 20 Acolytes who are only going to put out ~11 damage. That said I do see some value in exclusively using them to blow up weak save hordes but they can obviously do any job well. Fiends already have an 18"-30" threat range and you could easily have the Launchers killing a support hero\elite unit while the Cannons murder a horde. The issue I have with Acolytes split firing is that unless you have that math worked out and assume averages, it has the potential to be far worse in practice. Like I said, I'll try running a lot of stuff over the coming months in prep for a few tournaments I'm going to next year but I think Monks still need to be looked at as a viable option. Yeah, the real usage I would see for them is taking out larger hordes next to the fiends. Either way, as you stated, one unit would be left unbuffed and it really hurts their output. Maybe I'll hold off until GHB on these guys and pickup some PMs while I wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Vesper said: Yeah, the real usage I would see for them is taking out larger hordes next to the fiends. Either way, as you stated, one unit would be left unbuffed and it really hurts their output. Maybe I'll hold off until GHB on these guys and pickup some PMs while I wait. You could always run 9 Jezzails or a couple WLC's. Jezzails don't need buffs and tend to be fine to act alone and snipe a support Hero per turn or whittle away at other units. That would leave the 6 Fiends to shoot at whatever else they want. It's another route I'm looking into, depending on how my testing with Monks and Acolytes go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 8 hours ago, Gwendar said: You could always run 9 Jezzails or a couple WLC's. Jezzails don't need buffs and tend to be fine to act alone and snipe a support Hero per turn or whittle away at other units. That would leave the 6 Fiends to shoot at whatever else they want. It's another route I'm looking into, depending on how my testing with Monks and Acolytes go. I do have 12 jezzails. So we'll see what happens in my next list. I looked at the math again and again today and decided against monks. Their output is too weak now? Sure they can put out plenty of wounds, but with things like HoS and OBR...they won't get much mileage anymore. Meanwhile jezzails have never let me down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffectual Clawlord Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 (edited) @Laststand The battle report was good fun. 3000 pt games always have this nice apocalyptic flavor. Generally, Log Cabin Gaming has a great atmosphere to their reports and it is nice to see the channel grow. On 12/18/2019 at 12:57 PM, Umjammerlama said: Would people arm them with blades or stave and blades? I created a blog post trying to answer questions that appeared so far, including the question of how to equip them. On 12/18/2019 at 1:49 PM, Drcrabs said: Spoiler Arch-Warlock (160)- Trait: Overseer of Destruction- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy- Artifact: SkavenbrewPlague Priest on Furnace (200) 20 x Clanrats (120)20 x Clanrats (120)20 x Clanrats (120)40 x Plague Monks (280)- Blade & Woe Staves40 x Plague Monks (280)- Blade & Woe Staves20 x Skryre Acolytes (240)4 x 1 Ratling Gun (240) list If you have the models already, try out how much you like all the close range shooting. For my taste, going with double PM as well as double close range combo tends towards overkill and you might want to consider some longer range. At the very least, I'd change the Skavenbrew to Ignax's Scales. Your AW is an essential buff piece for your shooting, and if there is one thing you don't starve for with this list, it is damage. 😊 22 hours ago, Gwendar said: Reveal hidden contents Allegiance: SkaventideLeadersGrey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)- General- Trait: Master of Magic- Lore of Ruin: Death FrenzyWarlock Engineer (100)- Artefact: Vigordust Injector- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!Warlock Engineer (100)- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!Grey Seer (140)- Lore of Ruin: SkitterleapBattleline40 x Clanrats (200)- Rusty Blade40 x Clanrats (200)- Rusty Blade20 x Clanrats (120)- Rusty BladeUnits40 x Plague Monks (280)- Woe-stave6 x Stormfiends (520)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsWarp Lightning Vortex (100)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 204 I somewhat considered dropping the Monks for 20 Gutter Runners + a Bridge for the Fiends but... yeah, Eshin still can't compete unfortunately. With the change to the Fiends it really just allows me to take a Grey Seer to Skitterleap an Engineer for WLV. An alternative to that is 6 Jezzails for hero sniping, but to be honest I can usually kill those same squishy 5-6 wound hero's with some decent rolls T1\2 with the WLV anyway and having the Grey Seer around for -1 to hit is nice to have. I do occasionally take an AW with Balewind and Chain Lightning in my double Bell builds. As the Bell aura does damage 50% of the time, it tends to create a nice, although unreliable, amount of AoE pressure on non-monstrous heroes. 22 hours ago, Darkhan said: @Gwendar have you ever tried a Verminlord Deceiver with a gnawbomb? To get 40 monks behind enemy lines? It's used occasionally with Fiends or PM, but compared to the bridge it does have disadvantage of being once per game and you "wasting" your artifact. It can most certainly catch your opponent of guard though, which is why these lists did have some success. 18 hours ago, Vesper said: Why do people keep saying you need 'full buffs' to make Acolytes worth it? You can easily get them up to 3s to hit and 4s to wound simply by having 30 of them with -2 and D3 damage. The only worry is that they might not be fast enough to get fully in range of what they want to kill. Even then, they're going to kill whatever they attack regardless. The argument is not that Acolytes without MMMWP aren't good (they aren't great however), but rather that you miss out on too much. They do normally hit 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 = 4/16 of the time before armour. With MMMWP the equation changes to 3/4 x 3/4 = 9/16. It more than doubles the number of hits. It's the same for Stormfiends. As they trade some damage for tankiness, it's usually preferred to buff them, as you invested so much more and to make them an efficient use of your points you want to maximize their effect. As you pointed out, you could use Deranged Inventor as your command trait. This directly competes with Overseer of Destruction however, which for the same investment will net you more damage when going down the Ratling route. Personally I always found large (>20) blocks of Acolytes too unwieldy, but that's primarily because I feel naked without at least 120 melee models. Hopefully you will find more success and fun with them! Edited December 19, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkhan Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 I think it's still atleast worth trying 9 stormfiends now, just to see how it affected them, 6 +3, and just treat them as one unit. Gonna try it this Saturday! And see how they do. MMWP the unit of 6, Deranged the unit of 3, and use the bridge. Sure they will lose some dps, but I may also be able to negate some overkilling. We'll see! Ill ask a math engineer geek friend right now infact, and ask for the math! Ill post it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffectual Clawlord Posted December 19, 2019 Share Posted December 19, 2019 @Darkhan I made a table a while ago that lists the Skryre units and how they interact with different buffs, which might be helpful if you try to compare who to use MMMWP, Deranged Inventor e.a. on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.