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Ineffectual Clawlord

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27 Lord Celestant

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  1. @Aelford Stormvermin profit heavily from the size bonuses, so you want to have a safety net since they will get focused heavily. 40 is the way to go. I love your enthusiasm for Ratlings, but particularly for your second list I'd advise to drop one in addition to the Vermin to get 40 extra Clanrats in. Overseer of Destruction will provide a solid damage increase in both lists. If you want your AW to be tankier, dropping Vigordust for Ignax's Scales is an option. Burning Head is a matter of taste, I rate the other low cost endless spells higher, Suffocating Gravetide in particular. @gronnelg Hard to say what kind of build will be successful in the future. The most common answer seems playing around a 40-man Mortek Guard block in conjunction with lots of support characters as well as a Crawler. For Fiends builds not much adaption will be necessary. The guard re-roll only works in melee, Fiends (or Acolytes) will wipe them without much thought. Jezzail heavy builds have to be afraid of the Crawler because of their base bravery of 4. Slaying half of your unit is ... unpleasant. You can play around this with Gnawhole positioning as well as the fact that they will outdrop you. Depending on where they set up you can just choose the other side, or try to bait the cauldron with Plague Monks (one of the few matchups where they are lackluster). The problem with the Crawler is that trying to whittle it down will make the special shots fare more likely to happen. 9 Jezzails (or 6 SF) can't do it reliably, whereas 12 can. Another option is to use either Gutter Runners (or better: Pistoleers), a Deceiver or a Doom Wheel to pressure it. Other than the Crawler and Petrifex-Guards it's just another death faction. Look at their spell table, kill heroes.
  2. What does a fashionable gentle-rat choose when it wants to kill man-things? The choice is yours, but there are some options that are more efficient than others. Monks (damage per model, vs 4+ armour) Blades Staves Base 0.56 0.51 30+ 0.80 0.84 +Charge 1.20 1.4 + Filth or Rabid 1.60 1.9 Staves are almost always better, especially the more buffs are applied. Getting the charge is crucial. Blades of course also profit by the aforementioned, are however a more stable choice for when things go awry. Due to the re-roll they are consistent even with low model counts. From a practical standpoint it has to be said that running Staves won't make you popular (the only friend you will ever need is the horned rat anyway!) and is quite a chore. Sorting a hundred dice and more into four piles is just not enjoyable gameplay for most people. As long as Blades are a justifiable option I will run them. Clanrats (damage per model, vs 4+ armour) Swords Spears 20 swords equivalent in spears Base 0.13 0.083 31 30+ 0.22 0.33 26 + Gnash Bones 0.44 0.33 27 + Warbringer CA 0.61 0.45 27 The important part is the third column. Imagine you get 20 swords into combat, how many spears would it take to get the same amount of damage? At it's core this tells you, unsurprisingly, that you need a couple more spears. Therein lies the problem. Spears can afford to lose fewer models than Swords. Yes, you could potentially do more fighting in three ranks, but giving the rate Clanrats die you probably won't. In addition spears suffer more from penalties to hit. Going from 4 to 5 is a heavier loss than going from 3 to 4. (On the plus side: blocks with spears look great. ) Why would you even care how much damage Clanrats do? Well, used as 20-rat screening unit you don't. If we assume a points increase for Plague Monks in the future, running two 40-rat blocks with a Clawlord can be a viable alternative in the sense that your anvils do some damage in return and you diversify your win conditions. Stormfiends (per model equipped, vs 4+) damage MMMWP a) Launcher (+ spark) 3 6 Warpfire is just mortal wounds = 1/2 models in range. b) Ratling (10 shots, + spark) 4.4 8.9 Grinderfist 2.2 4.4 c) Doomflayer (+1 to hit) 3.7 5.8 Shocking Gauntlets 3.3 6.3 (if fishing for 6s, re-rolling only fails: 5.3) Both melee variants are pretty much equal, concerning their average damage as well as their reliability (or lack thereof). Despite not regularly seeing them, i believe that a unit of 3 with Warpfire brings a lot to the table. There are few matchups where a Flamethrower will be a complete waste and even then you can use the model as a sacrificial lamb in the way the mainstream ranged unit uses it's melee bro. In particular builds that are already strong against MSU/single target (e.g. double bell with chain warlock and Jezzails) can profit from having an anti-horde option. The only thing that has a hard time justifying itself is the Grinderfist. Failing to arrive 1/3 of the time is critical. As well as the general problem with deepstriking SF this way: Warpfire is out of range, the "normal build" needs to be buffed in order to do work. Unless you run some form of original build that tries to mass deepstrike most of their army, I wouldn't advise building it. Deathmaster (vs 4+ armour) Weeping 1.8 Fighting 1.6 Fighting Claws with: Sword of Judgment 5.3 Jadewand 2.8 Rune Blade 3.1 Clan Eshin units follow the classic fantasy archetype of the assassin, with one exception: they aren't deadly. The Deathmaster follows this philosophy strictly. He has great utility and can really surprise your opponent both by appearing out of nowhere as well as not doing anything once he appeared. Lucky procs of SoJ can of course be good, but sacrificing your artifact slot (you are Skaven, you probably only have one) for not even 4 bonus mortal wounds is just not an amazing option. Vigordust Injector on Fiends, Monks or Vermin can do this far more reliably. Master Moulder (vs 4+ armour) Lash 1.3 Things-Catcher 1.3 A question of aesthetics, typical for clan Moulder. Some 3" fighting shenanigans are always appreciated and can give you that extra bit of damage to tip the tides. It probably won't however. Using enough Moulder units to justify a support hero for them means that you need to put some extra effort in though. Given the length of the book there are surprisingly few choices hidden away and with the exception of Stormfiends none of them fundamentally change anything about the units. I do hope this was helpful to all of you losing sleep over Clanrat equipment!
  3. Good catch, you are absolutely right! Aetherquartz works for every CP spent, skilled manipulator for every usage by a masterclan hero. This changes the math quite a bit, but the general routine is still the same. I never played the build myself but rather saw that some people had success with it and believe it to be a clever mechanic. Since you always need different heroes for Thanquol's CA it require quite a bit of bookkeeping.
  4. @Kimbo Thankfully the Skaven SC is insanely useful for starting an army. This is 1620 pt and the only thing you need are 4 boxes of Clanrats (they will always come in handy). The Bombardier can be converted from pretty much anything as long as you give him something that looks like a rocket, e.g. mine from a Cannon kit Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220) - Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220) Warlock Bombardier (100) (or Arch-Warlock or Engineer if you don't want to convert) 40 x Clanrats (200) - Rusty Blade 20 x Clanrats (120) 20 x Clanrats (120) 40 x Plague Monks (280) - Foetid Blades Warp Lightning Cannon (180) Warp Lightning Cannon (180) From here you can just move in any direction really. Remove 1 Cannon and put 6 Stormfiends in and you have a balanced tournament list etc. Really solid foundation.
  5. @States You need supreme manipulator, which gives 5/9 command points (CP) back whenever a masterclan hero uses a command ability (CA). Aetherquartz broosh as your artifact gives you 1/3 CP back whenever a CP is spent. You start with Thanquol's CA, which gives you back 1/3 + 5/9 = 8/9. If you use 1 of the free CA's you get 5/9 back, for 2 CA's 10/9, for 3 15/9. So in total if you use two you earn 1 CP for each time Thanquol uses his CA. Note that you can always use Inspiring Presence since it gives immunity but has no other requirements. A charge doesn't have to be undertaken, so you can just re-roll it whenever a unit is in range. The reason you amass these CP's is to spend them on the Clawlord on Brood Horror. Contrary to the regular Clawlord his CA doesn't have any restriction on how often you can use it on a unit. 😊 I saw a list a couple (30? 40?) pages back from a tournament in the US where a lad did quite well with it. If you build lists that meet all the requirements you notice that you are incredibly stretched for points because you need some heavy point sinks: Thanquol, 2-3 masterclan heroes, CLoBH, probably Stormvermin. Once any of the heroes die, the combo starts to lose effectiveness or in the case of the CLoBH crumbles entirely. Also a turn 1 alpha strike list that boxes you in and forces you to use the CP's for extra attacks instead of spending them on Thanquol also breaks the combo. @Gwendar I don't play CoS but some lists look really fun and tempting, like pistoleer/demigryph cav builds. Bridge synergizes so splendidly with most of the shooters that I believe this will prove the most effective (contrary to the GF artillery builds which just have a very sad damage output by comparison). HH just doesn't seem frightening enough as a pure magic list.
  6. It has a stable core with double bell etc. and can definitely work. I personally wouldn't play Stormvermin in a tournament unless they come down 50 points. The difference to Plague Monks in terms of efficiency is just too great. I wouldn't want to discourage you from trying them yourself though! They are great models, Verminous based builds have a unique kind of flair and are aesthetically pleasing. I'm not sure why you included Burning Head. With 30 points you could also get Palisade or Gravetide and Maelstrom, which provide better utility. Brutal Fury is debatable and usually the go to trait for Warbringers. It might surprise some people if he actually gets to fight, but overall Verminous Valour is just more beneficial if you want to use the Clawlord as a buff piece. Overall Clan Verminous unfortunately isn't all that competitive at the moment. There are some lists like the Thanquol - Clawlord on Brood Horror command point spam with a dozen attacks on your Stormvermin (or Clanrats: if you roll 300 dice you will inevitably do damage). I fear that it would need a rework of the Clawhorde battalion and Stormvermin cost reduction. They are however still way ahead of Moulder and in particular Eshin as a stand alone clan. ----------------------------- Since a lot of new battletomes appeared recently, how do people find our new competitors from a Skaven perspective? Personally all the new destruction books don't change a whole lot in terms of gameplay. If your list could handle an aggressive melee army like Slanesh before, it can do well against Warclans/Mawtribes as well. Time will tell what Cities lists will actually be good since they have so many possible playstyles. The only thing I'm really afraid of are Mortek Crawlers. Taking out Engineers or generally all our support characters as well as decimating things with low bravery. Having half of my Jezzails slain with a 42" threat range is ... annoying. I'm not sure how popular this unit and army will be but it might require some changes to lists (e.g. Palisade, Deceiver).
  7. @Congratz Good question! 1 Fiend vs 4+ AR: Doomflayer (+1 to hit) 3.7 +MMMWP 5.8 Shock gauntlets 3.3 +MMMWP (normal) 5.3 (fishing for 6s) 6.3 Grinderfist 2.2 + MMMWP 4.4 Clubbing Blows (Vigordust + MMMWP) 3.2 Yes, not a whole lot of difference. In particular both options are very unreliable in their output. I love the shock gauntlet mechanics, but use the Doomflayer since it looks absolutely beastly! 😊 As @KingOfSuede said, in the common ranged SF setup you want to assign the wounds to the melee guys and generally stay out of range. Nonetheless you shouldn't be afraid to charge with SF if you can ensure that you strike first, are safe next turn and can shoot freely. Assuming you get 6 SF into combat (2 shock, rest ranged) that's ~25 damage vs 4+ AR. In this situation i like to calculate with ~10 damage, just to be on the safest of sides.
  8. I would love SV to be a viable alternative, however right now I think the difference in effectiveness is just too pronounced. Lowering their cost to 400 and the Clawhorde to 120 (or increasing the area a bit) would certainly help.
  9. Since they show up in most competitive Skaven lists and have a bad reputation: are Plague Monks overpowered? Breaking down the damage (Pair of Foetid Blades, vs 4+ AR, damage per model) with Bale-Chime (without) 100 pt efficiency (without Bale, cost 300) Base 0.56 (0.50 ) 8 (6.7 ) 30+ 0.80 (0.74 ) 9.4 (7.5 ) +Charge 1.20 (1.11 ) 17.2 (14.8 ) + Filth or Rabid 1.60 (1.48 ) 22.9 (19.7 ) Both Prayers 2.14 (1.98 ) 30.6 (26.4 ) Picking Staffs is better if you can get the charge or buff them. However they are very reliant on the charge, annoying because of all their rolling and less reliable due to no inherent rerolls. How does this compare to...? Most mixed lists use them without buffs, since a Plague Furnace means a 200 pt investment. It is a decent combatant, but will get eaten by most dedicated monsters/hammers. Monks are glassy as can be but work in Skaven lists because of Death Frenzy. They are balanced around their need to get the charge and their 20/30+ unit bonuses and having (mostly) no rend. The main issue is not that they themselves are amazing, but that they are annoying. A box full of dice, rerolls, 4 separate piles of dice due to two "on 6 rules", (2 weapon profiles if you use Staffs. The solution can't be to just flat increase points since this just hurts pure Pestilens (who have no other choice) and Nurgle (who need all the love they can get). Rather removing the Bale-chime option lowers damage by ~8% (Foetid Blades vs 4+ AR) and particularly removes two dice piles. 6s on hit should feel like something special. Double damage does this, - 1 rend mostly feels like a waste of time. The good news is that you can do this yourself since it is an optional piece of equipment, the bad news is that instead of a rework of the warscroll there will most likely be another point increase.
  10. Yes, it's what you could fancily call "physical representation of threat". Everybody can see that Stormfiends mean you harm: 3 times as high as an ordinary clanrat, posing like destroyers of worlds etc. I have mine standing in poison puddles and over the bodies of man-things. Ratling guns are just silly little people practicing teamwork. Nothing to see there! Concerning the question of Overseer of Destruction: I don't like it overly much. It's an efficient trait, but I would only pick it if I can't spare MMMWP on a Ratling (e.g. when I run them in conjunction with Fiends or Acolytes). 3 Ratlings with Overseer + Spark + Overload vs. 4+ AR, 7 shots each: 9.3 x 3 = 27.9 2 Ratlings + Spark + Overload vs. 4+ AR, 7 shots + 1 with MMMWP = 2 x 6.2 + 12.4 = 24.8 (3 with Oversser, 1 with MMMWP = 27.9 + 12.4 = 40.3 ) To be effective you really want to use it on 3. Given the rate that these little workers die, you need 4 (rather 5). Personally that's too much investment for the balanced lists that I enjoy playing. I want to try this army once I have some more Ratlings and one more Wheel Arch-Warlock (160) - Trait: Overseer of Destruction - Artefact: Ignax's Scales - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Warp Lightning Shield Warlock Bombardier (100) - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power! Verminlord Warpseer (300) 40 x Clanrats (200) 40 x Clanrats (200) 40 x Clanrats (200) 1 x Ratling Gun (60) 1 x Ratling Gun (60) 1 x Ratling Gun (60) 1 x Ratling Gun (60) 1 x Ratling Gun (60) Doomwheel (160) Doomwheel (160) Warp Lightning Cannon (180) Prismatic Palisade (30) Malevolent Maelstrom (10)
  11. Since our tome is quite dauntingly complex and every couple of pages the same questions pop up, I've decided to start a blog where I want to compile information for the glory of the horned one. Skaven Supremacy through rational Analysis 😉 The first part is about our shooting units - because it's the most popular question. I wanted to keep the character of a reference sheet with my opinion, additional information etc. in spoilers. The content is the base damage and how it develops with buffs, as well as how point efficient the units are. I do hope this helps people in deciding which units to pick (hint: Ratling guns !) and saves some time.
  12. I've decided to cut out the math bits, put them into a separate entry and just give the results in order not to dilute the text too much. None of the spoilers are essential, these are just some thoughts for specific units that I tried to keep as general as possible. Summary: Stormfiends and Acolytes are bad investments without buffs, in particular MMMWP + Spark. Jezzails are decent without buffs. Doomwheels are a utility piece. Warpfire Throwers and Cannons have their niche. Give Ratling Guns a chance. What does "100 pt efficiency" mean? "Average damage" of what? "Compensated for overload" ? Warp Lightning Cannon: (180 pt, 24 + 3") avg dam 100 pt efficiency Base 3.5 1.9 +Overloaded 7 3.9 + Arkhspark 8.7 4.8 Notes Jezzails: (140 pt for 3, 30 + 6", vs 4+ AR) avg dam 100 pt efficiency Base 3.2 2.3 + Spark 4 2.9 + re wound 4.8 3.4 Notes Stormfiends: (260 pt for 3, 24 + 6", vs 4+ AR, ranged variant, mid-range of 10.5 shots for ratlings, target for Launchers < 10 models) avg Launcher avg Ratling 100 pt efficiency Base 1.5 2.3 1.5 + Spark 2.3 4.6 2.7 + re hit 3.4 7 4 + re wound 5.1 9.3 5.5 + Vigordust 6 11.1 6.6 Notes Acolytes (60pt for 5, 6 + run + 8", vs 4+ AR, target < 10 models) avg dam 100 pt efficiency Base 2.1 3.5 + Spark 3.1 5.2 + re hit 4.7 7.8 + re wound 7 11.7 + Vigordust 8.3 13.8 Notes Ratling Guns (60pt, 6 + 12", vs 4+ AR, mid range of 7 shots, everything overloaded) avg dam 100 pt efficiency (compensated for overload) Base 3.1 5.2 (4.4) + Spark 6.2 10.3 (8.8) + re hit 9.3 15.5 (13.3) + re wound 12.4 20.7 (17.7) Notes Doomwheel (160pt, 4d6 movement, vs 4+ AR, everything overloaded, mid range of 7 shots) avg dam melee 100 pt efficiency (only ranged) Base 4.1 1.3 2.6 + Spark 6.2 1.3 3.9 + re hit 8.3 1.3 5.2 + re wound 11.9 2.7 7.4 Notes Warpfire (70pt, 6 + 8") base overloaded 100 pt efficiency/ overloaded (compensated) vs 3 1.5 3 2.1 / 3.2 5 2.5 5 3.6 / 5.4 10 5 10 7.2 / 10.8 15 7.5 15 10.7 / 16.1 20 targets 10 20 14.3 / 21.5 Notes
  13. @Chase Leaders Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220) Warlock Bombardier (100) - General - Trait: Deranged Inventor - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power! Warlock Bombardier (100) - Artefact: Vigordust Injector - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power! Battleline 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade Units 6 x Stormfiends (520) Total: 1300 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 119 This would be a solid starting block that can still develop into all different directions and can support a lot of the whackier Skryre choices. Whacky meaning that they have random values for attack or movement (e.g. Doomwheel) and are therefore rarely seen in competitive lists. You could add 9 Jezzails and a Cannon in this list for example and use your Fiends as linebackers. Or you add another unit of Fiends, a Soulscream bridge and 2 Doomwheels to go aggressive. This is a list that features the stuff you want the most: Leaders Thanquol on Boneripper (400) - Lore of Ruin: Warpgale Arch-Warlock (160) - Artefact: Vigordust Injector - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power! Warlock Bombardier (100) - General - Trait: Deranged Inventor - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power! Battleline 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade 20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade Units 6 x Stormfiends (520) War Machines Doomwheel (160) Doomwheel (160) Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs Warp Lightning Vortex (100) Vermintide (40) Total: 2000 / 2000 Extra Command Points: 0 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 136 Still a lot you can change there, for example take the Fulminator instead of the Vigordust Injector. Send one of the Wheels through a Warphole and fulminate the other.
  14. I love Jezzails. They do reliable damage with a 36'' threat range. However it is not a whole lot of damage. Unlike Stormfiends where an entire build revolves around them (the Skryre 1drop list from the London GT is essentially 9 Fiends + tax/necessary support), Jezzails don't have the output to win a game by themselves. It is best to consider them a support unit that eliminates certain threats so your other win conditions become more likely. 9 Jezzails against 4+ armour, with spark: 4++/3+ 4.5 MW + 7.5 W = 12 The problem is look out sir, 5++/3+ 5 MW + 4.2 W = 9.2 There are two options to decrease the negative effects: MMMWP 5++/3++ 5 MW + 5 W =10 Vigordust 4++/3+ 4.5 MW + 7.5 W = 12 For 100 points against 4+ armour they average 2.9 damage (base + spark) or 3.4 with MMMWP. In other words, they aren't efficient because range costs a lot in AoS. Jezzails are natural best buddies with our short range shooters like Acolytes or Ratling Guns. Both are amazingly points efficient if you take the buffs into account (Acolytes: 11.7 dam per 100 points, Ratling with MMMWP: 20.7). MMMWP + spark more than triples the damage of acolytes and overlaps nicely with buffing the Jezzails first turn before keeping it ready for the acolytes. If you don't like the unreliability of Ratlings or don't want to convert Acolytes, you can always run 80 Monks like everybody else. Please practice rolling dice efficiently beforehand though.
  15. 9 Stormfiends against 4+ amour. Spark is always included. "Normal result" is what you can expect 7 out of 10 rolls. (95% confidence intervals tend to be so wide that you can't gauge it properly in game.) 4++ means that you can re-roll. Launchers: 4+/4+ 5-7 (.7 per shot) 4++/4++ 13-17 (1.7 per shot) 3++/4++ 16-20 ( 2 per shot) Ratling: 27 shots 36 shots 4+/3+ 12 (.44 per shot) 16 (.44 per shot) 4++/3++ 24 (.9 per shot) 32 (.9 per shot) 3++/3++ 28.4 (1.1 per shot) 38 (1.1 per shot) When splitting shots there is no answer to be found in math, but as a risk averse player myself I'd advise not to be too greedy and prioritize. What do you really need to kill? What happens if you don't kill it?
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