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Ineffectual Clawlord

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  1. As there are no Tzeentch players in my area that I know of, I can test this properly, but just from reading the book and writing lists there are some that I wouldn't know how to beat. At least with a Flamer list in some scenarios you can deploy further back, have your Fiends absorb damage etc. However, how would I play against a Duplicituos Host- Changehost list with 2x20 Horrors? With destiny dice it's almost impossible not to roll enough for at least 1 9" auto-charge, quite possibly 2. Besides the fact that that's 120 shots that do an average of 20 damage vs 4+ save (with selfbuff) or annihilate a group of Monks, I'm effectively boxed in my starting zone by 200 wounds. The banner replenishes if I don't kill 20 Horrors on T1, or at least they are immune to battleshock. With the LoC and battalion that still leaves 640 points open. No Skaven list that I've seen has enough damage output to get out of this before turn 3, probably even more as Tzeentch can deny important buffs like MMMWP. I don't want to sound negative, but I just can't quite figure out how I would win against this.
  2. Verminlords don't get to pick a spell from the lore of ruin, unfortunately, as they aren't Grey Seers.
  3. You didn't mention the spells in your list, so I just assumed you took Death Frenzy, which is what lets Skaven compete in melee. Pretty much what I cooked up was this: Obviously you should fine tune it to your local meta (e.g. Ignax's Scales over Ethereal if you face a lot of MW) and to your liking (e.g. Cunning is unreliable, but gives you some additional CP). @Skreech Verminking likes Warpflamers; a Doomwheel, fighty Verminlord, cheap shooting etc. are all options you can play around with later on. The Clawlord is very survivable by default (not a monster, so look-out-sir! applies), but putting him in combat still means that your positioning can be awkward as your other troops are deceptively mobile. This is the additional benefit of Skitterleap, besides 1st turn shenanigans, as it allows in-combat repositioning. For Skreetch, his spell is amazing, but what you do with the summoned Clanrats is really dependent on the board. If you only get 2 and can't block anything, you can always position them to the side and threaten backline objectives in conjunction with other mobile elements (Skreetch primarily). It's very versatile, and Skreetch is actually a good unit. For me, I never use him outside of Bell-summoning because he doesn't do anything I absolutely need, like battleshock-immunity, and I always find myself strapped for points.
  4. It's not that Verminus units are bad, it's simply that they cost too much, both when compared to other options inside as well as outside our battletome. I'd drop one Clawlord, and put Verminous Valor (+ ethereal amulet if you are really concerned) on him. If you want to use Skreetch, I'd spend the points on a Grey Seer to Skitterleap him turn 1 to get in range for his spell, possibly another endless spell like Vermintide. Just take care to actually block the summoned rats instead of providing a charge target and extra movement for your opponent. 😉 Also, a couple of pages back there has been a discussion about whether a Clawlord on Brood Horror is a valid choice for Clawhorde. I still consider it to be the case, but maybe be prepared for the question should it appear. As others have stated, the argument is that throughout the book the "subphases"-doctrine had been established. Whenever they specifically want you to use an ability before another, the start-phase-construction is used. Therefore, it is at least valid to eat it after your roll, in the same way as using e.g. the Deceiver CA after you rolled the wounds (unless I am missing an FAQ?). Still good, but more middle-of-the-road-good than before. It's good to see that the wrinkles that made Skaven ridiculous at release have been ironed out. The issue is currently that Skaven are essentially stale. If you look at lists from the release, the same units that are used now are to be found. Besides the initial point drops for Stormvermin (500pt being rather absurd) and Ratlings, nothing has been done to encourage diversity and internal balance. Arguments can be made for units that provide some utility (e.g. Doomwheels), but others, like Rat Ogors have one purpose: dealing damage, and other units simply do it better for less points. Apart from that, we have no allies, the mercenary companies are ... bland, the meta hasn't significantly shifted in any direction. So, list building stays the same, centered on a couple of archetype (Fiends/ Jezzail shooting/ Horde/Magice). This is vastly better than many other factions, mind you, and I certainly can't complain as there are still a lot of fun lists around. I have a lot of fun with my "Smashbros", Deceiver and Warpgnaw, leaping around the field, all jolly and ******. The new Tzeentch tome looks delightful though, and I might just unpack my old 40k Tzaangors, and craft some Chaos spawn.
  5. All of the shooting archetypes (Fiends, Jezzails, close range) are possible here, every one bringing something unique to the table. It's a question of positioning and playstyle. The primary way people lose to Terrorgheists is by a) deploying too aggressively. While deploying, keep the threat ranges in mind and ask your opponent. If he gives you 1st turn (which I would do against a Fiends list), don't rush forward, rather play a conservative game as you have the range advantage. b) beware the double pile-in. The Gheist damage is of course unpredictable, but unless your entire group of Clanrats gets devoured, remove casualties so your opponent is in base contact with them. c) not taking enough screens. This is pretty self explanatory; Gristlegore has for a long time been a great argument for bringing a lot of rats. Have a unit screen the back board edge (wholly within 6", more than 9" away...) to prevent summoning and additional pressure. All you want to care about is shooting down Gheists. And of course: destroy them completely, cut of the head, burn the corpse etc. The maw is the weapon that inflicts damage, and it does not degrade. Plus they regenerate. So, don't get greedy and split your shots all over the place. Good hunting! @basement dweller Unfortunately, the way the book is designed there is no advantage to running mono-clans. All you do is cut yourself off options and abilities. The only 'battleline-if' that is potentially worth it are Monks - and even they love a Clanrat-screen. Ogres are one of the opponents you can actually fight, unlike e.g. OBR. @Skreech Verminking I do agree with you. Flamers are more versatile than they initially appear, due to the overload mechanic allowing them to do damage to elite cav, e.g. 6 piggies. Outside the Archaon-Varanguard-list, there are basically no lists where they will be entirely useless. Recently I started running 3 Fiends again, in the ol' Flamer-Ratling-Flayer setup, and it works quite well for me. It's a true all rounder and provides more versatility than a second group of Monks.
  6. Concerning the OBR discussion, I'm against including units in my lists that only exist to counter specific lists or even building counter-lists to my usual opponents. I always like to approach it like I would a tournament list, namely in a balanced fashion (not in terms of power level). Warpflamers en masse for example is highly situational. One can be quite a valuable addition as it works completely independent, i.e. takes no Skryre synergy and fits e.g. into Verminus inspired lists. That aside, they aren't even very good against OBR because of Crawlers/Nagash (ignoring the occasional non-Guard list). The one thing you have to think about are Crawlers, and the plan boils down to: a) ignore them. Pretty straightforward. Yes, they will get their money's worth and put a dent into your army, but they are fickle creatures and stand an equal chance of failing. b) occupy them. Options here include Deceiver, 5 Gutter Runners, Doomwheels. Having a deepstrike option at the very least forces your opponent to put 10 Guard on screening duty and takes them out of the initial rounds. c) kill them. If only it was so easy. The problem with counter-sniping is that, unless you run 12 Jezzails, you can't reliable do it. 9 buffed Jezzails have a 50-50 chance to destroy. Should you fail, the Crawler, using their special ammunition, can target Jezzail morale and completely wipe them. What works quite well are warpflame-ratling-doomflayer Fiends. Even if they snipe your Engineer, you still have a Flamthrower in your pocket. Other than that, all the usual archetypes, except for double Monks, works quite well against OBR. For Jezzails you have to change your priorities slightly: focus on keeping them alive, i.e. out of Crawler range. Taking out groups of 10 Guards (or 20 over 2 turns, which they can do even with healing) means that you take them the chance to compete in many multi-objective scenarios.
  7. The problems with pure Moulder are manifold, but quintessentially it is a slow melee army that does nothing special, has no allegiance abilities and few internal synergies. However, if people want to play with their mutated rats, who am I to judge? This is the Fleshmeld list that I would run if I was forced to. The key point is to have max. 2 drops in order to give the first turn away. Further, Cogs makes it more reasonable to actually reach the enemy. CP are absolutely essential, as the chance to bring back full packs is Moulders real appeal. My advice is to ignore mono-clans; just take whatever units you like to run in a Masterclan list. Even from a roll-playing perspective, why would my supreme clan not hire someone else's disgusting subordinates to die in the stead of my disgusting subordinates? This would be my interpretation. It follows the wonderfully simple formula of: battleshock-immunity + Clanrats + replace usual hammers (ranged, monks) with clan X units.
  8. Nice report! Magic lists are so fun to play, but o so inconsistent.
  9. I initially missed that the exploding 6s on Monks also apply to the staves. This really changed my perspective on the unit, and it appears to actually be a buff for them. Blades and Staves kept their original archetype, meaning that Blades become better the more you assume goes wrong. The key point is that you can buff Staves very easily. Vigordust is perfect for it, as for once the +1 to charge isn't wasted. With it you have a unit effectively hitting on 2+/2+ (exploding to wound is arithmetically a +1 to wound), with 2" 25mm bases and 3 attacks on the charge. A 2+ to hit is also an obvious candidate for the generic CA All-out-attack. Assuming you get 30 models in, which shouldn't be that hard with +2 to charge, this results in: vs. 3+ avg 24 damage, vs. 6+ 61. Compared to the previous Stave spec, that's -22% damage on the charge, -12% not charging. Comared to Blades this means + 20%. (All of this assuming Vigordust buff). The downside is that with only 19 models left, your damage goes down to: vs 3+ 6, vs 6+ 14 Do I need a Furnace, i.e. how do I buff most efficiently? Vigordust + 25%, + re 1s to hit +47% Filth + 28% Rabid +34% Vigordust + re 1s + Rabid: 100% This means that you pay 200pt for an additional 50% increase from the base value (on a 3+ prayer though), which certainly is an option, particularly as an alternative to a second Bell. Given how quickly this setup loses damage though, I would only consider it in a 2-Monk list, which will struggle quite a bit with certain opponents like OBR.
  10. @TALegion Your list is what I'd call pretty iconic (Thanquol, Clanrats, lots of Skryre), and a lot of people will naturally gravitate towards this. There are some problems: a) Thanquol needs endless spells. His warscroll spell is flat out bad, and you don't want to waste a +2 wizard that costs 400 pt. b) Cannons have a niche, which is shooting - to hit targets (e.g. Hagg Narr shrine with gryph feather charm is useless to target with Jezzails) and high price monsters, especially ethereal ones. The problem is that 2 and an Engineer sets you back 460 pt, while over the course of 4 turns (always overloading one, each lasting two turns) and always rolling 1s for your power level, you'll do 60 MW. Realistically, you'll have nothing worthwhile to shoot first turn and not always roll 1s, so half that seems likely. Investing that much leaves you very vulnerable against hordes and rush armies. c) You need more bodies. 60 Clanrats just don't cut it with the amount of damage many fast armies can put out. If you get double turned, the game ends before you had your first real go. d) Overseer of Destruction is only worth it if you plan to bring at least 3 Ratlings (preferably 4). They are the only weapon team that profits from this trait, which GW could have written down in the tome instead of this confusing keyword jungle. e) Warpcog in mixed Skaven: I just can't see a place for it. Traditionally, what it has been used for was to provide a 1-drop alpha strike for your 9 fiends (it was risky, with a potential high reward). This isn't possible anymore. In mixed lists, you pay too dearly for the little benefit it provides, as almost everything is either grotesquly overtaxed, or has little to no effect. Arkhspark Voltik is the only worthwile one, as it makes your WLC somewhat reliable, but still not worth that amount of points. (Apologies to our Doomwheel aficionados, but I won't pay 320 pt tax for +3 to all moves). These points out of the way, here is what I would run while keeping the theme and original list as intact as possible: Thanquol on Boneripper (400) - Lore of Ruin: Warpgale Warlock Engineer (100) - Trait: Verminous Valour - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power! Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240) - Artefact: Suspicious Stone - Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy 40 x Clanrats (200) 40 x Clanrats (200) 20 x Clanrats (120) 6 x Warplock Jezzails (280) 15 x Skryre Acolytes (180) Warp Lightning Cannon (180) That's 1900 points, for the rest you want endless spells. With 100pt you can afford either WL Vortex or Geminids + Vermintide, whatever tickles your fancy. I do have an irrational dislike towards the Vortex, but there are a lot of people who had good success with and enjoy using it. If you do, Staff of rightful supremacy is a decent artefact choice as it allows an automatic dispell to move the location. How to build Thanquol? That really depends on how many hordes and/or strike first/last armies you face. My advice is to magnetize the weapons, so you can test and change freely when changing builds. Death Frenzy or Plague? Dependent on the Thanquol equipment and your typical opponents. DF is a good damage spell even with only 40 Clanrats (6.4 avg vs 4+ save, losing their size bonuses as early as possible), and can be a possible deterrent or at least draw out unbinds. I'd prefer it, unless you mainly fight OBR. Good luck with this, may you gnaw on many bones and suck the sweet marrow of your enemies lifes!
  11. @Darkhan I made a table a while ago that lists the Skryre units and how they interact with different buffs, which might be helpful if you try to compare who to use MMMWP, Deranged Inventor e.a. on.
  12. No, you are entirely right. For some reason I was utterly convinced that only the Pair of Blades got the exploding 6s. Which, funny enough, meant that most of my conclusions were wrong. Staves are vastly better than I initially assumed, requiring roughly 1/4 more models in range. A valuable lesson has been learned; thanks for pointing this out. I do sincerely hope that I managed to fix every mistake.
  13. @Laststand The battle report was good fun. 3000 pt games always have this nice apocalyptic flavor. Generally, Log Cabin Gaming has a great atmosphere to their reports and it is nice to see the channel grow. I created a blog post trying to answer questions that appeared so far, including the question of how to equip them. If you have the models already, try out how much you like all the close range shooting. For my taste, going with double PM as well as double close range combo tends towards overkill and you might want to consider some longer range. At the very least, I'd change the Skavenbrew to Ignax's Scales. Your AW is an essential buff piece for your shooting, and if there is one thing you don't starve for with this list, it is damage. 😊 I do occasionally take an AW with Balewind and Chain Lightning in my double Bell builds. As the Bell aura does damage 50% of the time, it tends to create a nice, although unreliable, amount of AoE pressure on non-monstrous heroes. It's used occasionally with Fiends or PM, but compared to the bridge it does have disadvantage of being once per game and you "wasting" your artifact. It can most certainly catch your opponent of guard though, which is why these lists did have some success. The argument is not that Acolytes without MMMWP aren't good (they aren't great however), but rather that you miss out on too much. They do normally hit 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 = 4/16 of the time before armour. With MMMWP the equation changes to 3/4 x 3/4 = 9/16. It more than doubles the number of hits. It's the same for Stormfiends. As they trade some damage for tankiness, it's usually preferred to buff them, as you invested so much more and to make them an efficient use of your points you want to maximize their effect. As you pointed out, you could use Deranged Inventor as your command trait. This directly competes with Overseer of Destruction however, which for the same investment will net you more damage when going down the Ratling route. Personally I always found large (>20) blocks of Acolytes too unwieldy, but that's primarily because I feel naked without at least 120 melee models. Hopefully you will find more success and fun with them!
  14. You, dear reader, might have heard that Monks have been reworked and that you, dear reader, should be furious. How furious? Let's take a look. AoS_Skaven_Warscroll_card_Plague_Monks.pdf Edit: fixed the stave damage. A sad day, as it appears I can't read. How much damage does it do? Comparison Staff (30 models) vs. Blades (20 models) Save Staff charge Blades charge Staff no charge Blades no charge 2 8.33 6.96 5.56 4.63 3 16.67 13.89 11.11 9.26 4 25 20.83 16.67 13.89 5 33.33 27.78 22.22 18.52 6 41.67 34.72 27.78 23.15 - 50 41.67 33.33 27.78 Alright, you mutter, but we used to do more, didn't we? How much damage did we lose? (Foetid Blades, 30+ bonus applied, damage per model) Save Old Charge New Charge Old no charge New no charge 2 .46 .35 .31 .25 3 .83 .69 .56 .46 4 1.2 1.04 .8 .69 5 1.57 1.39 1.05 .93 6 1.94 1.74 1.3 1.16 - 2.22 2.08 1.48 1.39 Between 10% (vs 6+) and 24% (vs 2+) for Blades. Particularly for higher saves PM lost a lot of their effectiveness, which has implications for list building (see below). Now that you have dried your eyes, i hear you sobbing about staves, which were always stronger on the charge. Do I have to change my staves now? The basic problem is similar to the classic sword vs. spears debates: one has lower damage but 2" reach. It all boils down to a simple ratio: how many staves do I need to get into combat to break even with blades. As a rule of thumb: 25% more. Losing the 30+ bonus doesn't change this ratio, losing the 20+ bonus means the ratio shifts to 34%, but at this point this is only theoretical, as you won't have problems fitting <20 25mm bases into combat. How can I change the ratio? By affecting the hit-roll, as it is the only difference between the profiles. Having a worse chance to hit, staves profit more from re-rolls and +to hit (but also suffer more from - to hit). Corruptor CA: 10% more Vigordust Injector: they now have the same profile, and every additional model is a damage bonus. So when do I choose staves? If you want to use Vigordust or the Corruptor on your PM, then this is a very strong option, as you should easily get those additional models in. Otherwise, getting 25% extra models in requires you to keep enough of them alive so that it matters. So... change them? That depends. The difference, in most cases, isn't dramatic. Blades are, as before the safer option, while staves have higher damage potential. You read all this, but your grumbling does not cease. How does this compare to our other options? 100 pt damage efficiency vs. 4+ save. (What is the problem with this metric? ) Plague Monks: charge 14.9 no charge 9.9 Stormvermin 6.6 (extra attack: 9.8) Rat Ogors/Wolf Rats 4.7 (Moulder buff + Rabid Crown: 7.9) Acolytes 3.5 (MMMWP + Spark: 11.7) Censer Bearers 8.3 (PM nearby, charge) Night Runners 3.2 (40 shots, 20 melee attacks) Dispirited by our lack of options, anxiously you ask: What about my Furnace? Given the price advantage of now 40 points to the Bell, it's worth asking by how much the damage is increased. (per model, vs. 4+ save) charge (% increase) no charge (% increase) re-wound Blades 1.04 -> 1.32 (27) .69 -> .88 (28) Staves .83 -> 1.06 (28) .56 -> .7 (25) + attack Blades 1.04 -> 1.39 (34) .69 -> 1.04 (34) Staves .83 -> 1.11 (34) .56 -> .83 (48) Noteworthy increases, although not amazing when compared to e.g. MMMWP, which for SF or Acolytes more than doubles the damage. The Furnace is a good option if you want the additional battleshock immunity, but is by no means mandatory. Seeing you lie on the floor like a fainted goat, I ask myself: How does this change list building? The change definitely emphasized the role of PM as a destroyer of the poor and downtrodden, aka the blokes without armour. Before they actually had enough damage output to just crack open all but the most hardened (2+, 3+ re-rollable) armour, now they will struggle a lot more. This makes it even more important to combine them with high rend and mortal wounds. Being the sophisticated creatures that Skaven players are, most mixed lists already did this anyway. I feel that with the small price increases we have to deal with, double PM lists are still an option, but probably more matchup dependent. A typical 20-20-20 Clanrats + 40-40 PM list might want to drop one group and include 20 CR and 15 Acolytes/3 Ratling Guns. Personally I'll take a look on how the meta develops in the future, but want to test replacing one group of PM with a group of Warpfire-Ratling-Doomflayer Stormfiends , as they now seem to be more in line regarding their damage output. Conclusion: did we die and is this hell? I like to rant about GW's design decisions and arcane reasoning as well as the next man, but this was actually well done. As a Skaven player of course I would have preferred a less harsh penalty (e.g. a better on 6 ability), and this will hurt pure Pestilens lists a lot, which were already among the lower performing lists. They did achieve their goal of making PM vastly less annoying to play, and especially play against, while also not ruining the unit or necessitating a switch to one or the other gear option. For this they do deserves respect. It might have been nice though not only to have been beaten with the stick, but to have been offered a carrot afterwards. Half the units being essentially never played, with another bunch being one the fringe, it would have been nice to see some price reductions. Lowering Rat Ogors to 90 pt would not have broken the faction, but allowed them to be a viable alternative. Alas, maybe the next GHB will ease the pain of our brothers Eshin, Moulder and Verminous.
  15. (30+ bonuses applied, damage per model) Blades Save Old Charge New Charge Old no charge New no charge 2 .46 .35 .31 .25 3 .83 .69 .56 .46 4 1.2 1.04 .8 .69 5 1.57 1.39 1.05 .93 6 1.94 1.74 1.3 1.16 - 2.22 2.08 1.48 1.39 Edit: the staff damage was missing the exploding 6s. The accurate data can be found here. Thanks to Cosmicsheep to pointing this out. (I did use https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/ created by . Marvelous work!)
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