Getting annoyed by a player in tournaments...

[Carnivore]

Hey there,

I got a player in my local store...well, he is not even that. He just showns up for tournaments and then never appears within between them.
But anyway... he uses to play some army lists, that noone could beat until now.

I would really like to find someone, who has an idea how to possibly win against him.

Here are his 2 lists he played so far:

Allegiance: Order / Freepeople

1 Freeguild General
1x20 Freeguild Guard
2x30 Freeguild Crossbowmen
1 Gryph Hound

What he was pretty much doing is, to just shoot the enemies within anything you could possibly imagine.
When you get into melle, he shoots back. When you even get near him, or the Gryph Hound as it seems, he shoots you again.
In his shooting phase he shoots you.

The next list was like that:

Allegiance: Order / Stormcast Eternals / Anvils of the Heldenhammer


1 Knight Aryros
1 Celestant Prime
1 Loremaster
2x5 Liberators
2x1 Celestar Ballista

None of the players managed to win against him.

In 50% of all his games, he tabled his opponent within 3 or 4 turns.

Got any advic?

cheers///
 

[EMMachine]

13 minutes ago, Carnivore said:

When you even get near him, or the Gryph Hound as it seems, he shoots you again.

There are two things in this sentense, that were definitly wrong.

First, the Warning Cry of the Gryph-Hound does only work against Reserves that are set-up within 10" of the Gryph-Hound (not by moving into the range) and second, the warscroll got changed, and only Stormcast Eternals can shoot with the Warning Cry (also Gryph Hounds are now units of 6 (only in combination with a Lord Castellant or Lord Veritant Gryph-Hounds of 1 are possible) .

[Carnivore]

OOoooooh, yeah ok that changes it from now on actually.

So for 1 thing, I wanna watch out how he plays it from now on.

That should actually also change the generell shooting outcome a lot!

Thank you already for that quick replay and glorious advice. Me myself, I don't know all the warscrolls exactly, so i wouldn't have noticed what is wrong with that now.

[Richelieu]

In my opinion 1k is also much more dependent upon list/matchup/rock-paper-scissors than 2k.  I don't mind lower point values in a non competitive setting, but there just aren't enough models on the table for a player to recover from early setbacks.  It's why shooting lists are so strong at 1k and why it's less skill intensive than 2k.  

If you really want to slaughter the Freeguild list, bring some Fulminators and a Lord Castellant to buff them.  They're basically immune to all the damage in that list.  Or 60 Plaguebearers, also effectively immune to their shooting and the stormcast list too.  Or khailebron DoK army that has army wide -1 to hit against shooting.  

What kind of lists have you been bringing against him?

[Skreech Verminking]

6 hours ago, Carnivore said:

Hey there,

I got a player in my local store...well, he is not even that. He just showns up for tournaments and then never appears within between them.
But anyway... he uses to play some army lists, that noone could beat until now.

I would really like to find someone, who has an idea how to possibly win against him.

Here are his 2 lists he played so far:

Allegiance: Order / Freepeople

1 Freeguild General
1x20 Freeguild Guard
2x30 Freeguild Crossbowmen
1 Gryph Hound

What he was pretty much doing is, to just shoot the enemies within anything you could possibly imagine.
When you get into melle, he shoots back. When you even get near him, or the Gryph Hound as it seems, he shoots you again.
In his shooting phase he shoots you.

The next list was like that:

Allegiance: Order / Stormcast Eternals / Anvils of the Heldenhammer


1 Knight Aryros
1 Celestant Prime
1 Loremaster
2x5 Liberators
2x1 Celestar Ballista

None of the players managed to win against him.

In 50% of all his games, he tabled his opponent within 3 or 4 turns.

Got any advic?

cheers///
 

Well he probably never played against a Vermintide,

try using a Deathrunner as your general

Giving him the crown of conquest (which will make your whole army immune to battleshock)

a plague priest who will not do to much,

But be a pain in the ass.

and the rest clanrats. (This usualy means having at least 160clanrats on the table)

Oh ahm sorry for asking but what kind of army do you play, I somehow lost myself in my skaveni deceiving tournament lists.?

 

[Carnivore]

No Problem.

I play Khorne Bloodbound all the time, and I managed to have a very decend performance in the last tournament. That made me reach the 2nd place then.

My luck is, that I wasn't matched against him.

So my army is totally built on melee combat. I am sure, if I reached him, I would probably have won

But the other players just got more and more discouraged, when it came to play against that one player.

[Greven]

Teleport Fulminators and start chopping away chaff...

Khorne however.. Knights with glaives? 

[Ravinsild]

It really pisses me off to say this, but, actually no it PAINS me to say this, but, get malign sorcery and ally in a chaos sorcerer. Run either Skulltake or Slaughterborn and cast Cogs. Then have Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut or Mighty Lord of Khorne. 

Also take like the Talisman of Burning Blood and Violent Urgency or so. Then a lot of Skullreapers and Bloodreavers. 

Skullreapers absolutely destroy weak hordes in literal droves. All of these buffs above increase movement and also increase charges, so you can get into combat ASAP. Bring a Bloodstoker also.

get stuck in and rip and tear. 

And/or somehow bring a greater daemon of Khorne. They put out 14 attacks at 0 wounds at 3 damage apiece, and just have AoE damage for existing. He can just wade through big blobs in droves lol. 

[Thebiggesthat]

The game just isn't balanced at 1k. Although like previously pointed out, it sounds like he's playing the rules very wrong.

 

Also if he's shooting everyone off, is there enough terrain on the table?

[Dead Scribe]

This is why I do my best to only ever play what is standard, and that is 2000 points.  1000 points is not balanced at all for tournament play in my opinion.

[Carnivore]

4 hours ago, Thebiggesthat said:

The game just isn't balanced at 1k. Although like previously pointed out, it sounds like he's playing the rules very wrong.

 

Also if he's shooting everyone off, is there enough terrain on the table?

There is, at least what I would think, an ok average of terrain on the board. It cobres ike 40% of the board.
He definetly interprets a lot of rules wrong, that's confirmed now. So I will tell him next time, that he please shall have a look at the rulesets again before acting in the maners, he just did until now.

 

5 hours ago, Thebiggesthat said:

The game just isn't balanced at 1k. Although like previously pointed out, it sounds like he's playing the rules very wrong.

 

Also if he's shooting everyone off, is there enough terrain on the table?

Yeah, that's what I also thought. But we wanna appeal to new players too, and those only have like 1000 points most of the time.
I totally agree, that 2000 points is the standart way to got, but for now I would have to stay with 1000 points.

 

12 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

It really pisses me off to say this, but, actually no it PAINS me to say this, but, get malign sorcery and ally in a chaos sorcerer. Run either Skulltake or Slaughterborn and cast Cogs. Then have Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut or Mighty Lord of Khorne. 

Also take like the Talisman of Burning Blood and Violent Urgency or so. Then a lot of Skullreapers and Bloodreavers. 

Skullreapers absolutely destroy weak hordes in literal droves. All of these buffs above increase movement and also increase charges, so you can get into combat ASAP. Bring a Bloodstoker also.

get stuck in and rip and tear. 

And/or somehow bring a greater daemon of Khorne. They put out 14 attacks at 0 wounds at 3 damage apiece, and just have AoE damage for existing. He can just wade through big blobs in droves lol. 

That's actually, what I thought too. I wanted to concider a combo, that has the potential to tear his shooting lines apart. I was also thinking of hordes ( maybe 2 or 3 groups of 10 ) Chaos Warhounds, just to have him bound in melee. But for like 100 points for 100 doggies, they seem a little expencive for me.

 

15 hours ago, Greven said:

Teleport Fulminators and start chopping away chaff...

Khorne however.. Knights with glaives? 

The Knight with glaves should get the job done, imo. But it would mean, that I couldn't play my army anymore, as they are too much points of reinfocement / alliance. Therefore I could only take 200 points. I suggest only 1 group of 10 knights wouldn't be enough. But yes, in fact it should work pretty well.



So I need an army, that:

1st ) get into melee ASAP
2nd ) have other units, that come into melee after that fast units and just tear them apart
3rd ) maybe concider a wizard, just to use him for summoning demon units 9" next to his shooting units

If I once got him into melee, he should be done.

[stato]

If he is turning up just for tournaments, whats the problem in that? If you dont want to play people you dont know, dont advertise, make it a private event.

If he is being put against players who are disheartened by playing him why are they being put against him? The tournament ranking should be placing winners vs winners each round. If they are winning games then they should expect a tough opponent next round.

[TheOtherJosh]

On 7/22/2018 at 6:23 AM, Carnivore said:

Freeguild General
1x20 Freeguild
2x30 Freeguild Crossbowmen
1 Gryph Hound

What he was pretty much doing is, to just shoot the enemies within anything you could possibly imagine.

So... Gryph-hounds warning cry is even more limited than it was indicated. It only works for STORMCAST ETERNALS Units. (Which he doesn’t have any of.) And now they have to be Wholly within 9” for the ability to work.

And If they shoot on setup, they can’t shoot later in the phase.

In general, I’m going to recommend getting more familiar with the core rules and potentially the Stormcast rules.

Keep an eye out for allies getting benefit of Allegiance Abilities. Named characters getting additional Command Traits or being given Artefacts.

The Celestant Prime is painful to work against.

50 minutes ago, Carnivore said:

3rd ) maybe concider a wizard, just to use him for summoning demon units 9" next to his shooting units

You can’t summon Daemons to the board with a Chaos wizard. You could use Endless Spells.

Or Bloodtithe in a Khorne Army to summon

[Drib]

On 7/22/2018 at 12:23 PM, Carnivore said:

1 Freeguild General
1x20 Freeguild Guard
2x30 Freeguild Crossbowmen
1 Gryph Hound

You could allie a Gaunt Summoner, as he is Everchosen, to kill a unit of 30 Crossbowmen in one turn as long as he used his CP to buff the to hit to wound (what he should).

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, Carnivore said:

The knight with glaves should get the job done, imo. But it would mean, that I couldn't play my army anymore, as they are too much points of reinfocement / alliance

You can mark the Chaos Knights with Glaives as Khorne, and they’re not allies.

[Scythian]

You make this person sound like they’re doing something nefarious by only coming in to play in tournaments. Many gamers only play in tournaments instead of casual, weekly gameplay. Is this person a ****** to your fellow gamers, or has he just created an army that you and your crew can’t beat? If he created a great army, it’s incumbent upon you to find a way to beat him. Many gamers are lazy and want to continue to try to fit the square peg into the round hole. Do you analyze the way he beats you? Have you examined all the options your army has to offer that might counter what he’s doing? Gamers have a terrible habit of speaking harshly about those who succeed with their armies’ meta. I have 5-7 gamers in my group that consistently play Nagash. Do I bemoan this fact? No, I hit the big bonehead with 20 Blood Sisters and whack him down in one round of combat. Your army has a method of beating this guy; find it!

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Scythian said:

You make this person sound like they’re doing something nefarious by only coming in to play in tournaments. Many gamers only play in tournaments instead of casual, weekly gameplay. Is this person a ****** to your fellow gamers, or has he just created an army that you and your crew can’t beat? If he created a great army, it’s incumbent upon you to find a way to beat him. Many gamers are lazy and want to continue to try to fit the square peg into the round hole. Do you analyze the way he beats you? Have you examined all the options your army has to offer that might counter what he’s doing? Gamers have a terrible habit of speaking harshly about those who succeed with their armies’ meta. I have 5-7 gamers in my group that consistently play Nagash. Do I bemoan this fact? No, I hit the big bonehead with 20 Blood Sisters and whack him down in one round of combat. Your army has a method of beating this guy; find it!

1. that's what he's doing. Trying to find a solution within this thread. 
2. There is nothing wrong with not liking to play someone because he has a different mindset (just like there is nothing wrong with him only appearing for tournaments). 
3. If a lot of people don't like to play him, in combination with rule 'mistakes' in his advantage... i'm gonna guess, on personal experience, he doesn't win the best opponent trophy... ever. And that is a problem in a smaller gaming community. 

So fair play to @Carnivore in my opinion. Although I would advice having a talk with that opponent because he might not even know.

On the gaming side of things I agree that 1K skews games a bit but I don't have enough experience with Khorne to  advice on that. But from my personal experience this weekend, Kahadron overlords on 1K with some stacking bonuses and good rolls (and me forgetting the -1 from my temple) can absolutely wipe out 380 points of Daughters of Khaine in one go. ?

[Scythian]

5 minutes ago, Kramer said:

1. that's what he's doing. Trying to find a solution within this thread. 
2. There is nothing wrong with not liking to play someone because he has a different mindset (just like there is nothing wrong with him only appearing for tournaments). 
3. If a lot of people don't like to play him, in combination with rule 'mistakes' in his advantage... i'm gonna guess, on personal experience, he doesn't win the best opponent trophy... ever. And that is a problem in a smaller gaming community. 

So fair play to @Carnivore in my opinion. Although I would advice having a talk with that opponent because he might not even know.

On the gaming side of things I agree that 1K skews games a bit but I don't have enough experience with Khorne to  advice on that. But from my personal experience this weekend, Kahadron overlords on 1K with some stacking bonuses and good rolls (and me forgetting the -1 from my temple) can absolutely wipe out 380 points of Daughters of Khaine in one go. ?

I wish I had a chance to face KO! They are virtually nonexistent where I play, and I’m in a major metropolitan area. You KO and Deepkin players are a scarce as Dodo birds and dinosaurs. 

[grungolah]

I'm going to suggest something a little different.  Convince someone to bring Nurgle.  30x Plaguebearers and the lord of blights = -4 to hit in the shooting phase.   The Lord of Blights could hang out behind a Gnarlmaw.

 

What you are looking for is enough presence of the natural enemy of shooty lists to encourage a shift in the local meta.

 

 

 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Scythian said:

I wish I had a chance to face KO! They are virtually nonexistent where I play, and I’m in a major metropolitan area. You KO and Deepkin players are a scarce as Dodo birds and dinosaurs. 

Okay! Here's what you do... it's sneaky and dirty ? but... I bought enough second hand KO to paint them into an army and lent them to a friend to play me  

[Carnivore]

So many great advice

Thank you already, to all of you!

Well, the thing is not only, that he play another list each time, that noone could ever win against...the thing is also his geneell attitude with that.

People where complaining, that he is kind of arrogant too. They told, that they have the feeling, that he always knows, that he will win, and acts like that pretty harsh. In our local, very small, community that's a problem.

Next thing is, that he doesn't even support the local store, and he also never shows up for normal games. So people can not gain experience aginst him. The thing with the support of our store is, that we use our GW's location for our tournaments. Everyone buys his products here, but he doesn't.

No, in fact he doesn't buy any models. What he does is, to buy the easy to build models from the stormcasts anywhere and converting them in whatever he wants to.
He imitated a Lord Azyros with a standart Prosecutor, that he attached a sword from an elve to, and a lantern from an artillery unit, that I never saw before.
SOme of his units doesn't even have the correct bases. That's what annoys the players too.

They ask sometimes "Why do I even buy my models here, that I wanna play? Seems like I could convert anything to anything." And that's not optimal in terms of supporting our local store.

Then his rule sets, that he seems to misinterpret, come to that too.

So, in generell, the playbase describes him as being "cheesy" and WAAC ( win at all cost ). Because he likes to discuss the opponent's rules and to interpret those different, as it is obviously written sometimes.

To win against him would be very nice, so that guy could have a little bachdraw. But it is not easy at all, as he has another list each time, and we don't know what he has in generell.
Well, regarding to hin selfmade models he technically has...everything... . But we can not gain any experience against him, as he never shows up, exept for tournaments.

I know, it sounds little harsh and "little boy" like, when I complain about players like that. But within our tournaments he is "that guy" we all know.
There used to be another one like that, but after he was given a dropping, he would ever forget, he just quitted playing the game entirely.
Before that he was alos a WAAC guy, that had very very very nasty lists.

What's also important is, that we have beginners in our tournaments, that just started the game. And the gameplay with him is often a bad example for those. So they get discouraged very easy.

Cheers ///

Again, I appreciate the help very much!

[Thor]

I know full Well the paint of dealing with Rules lawyers, in the end sort it out by a Roll OFF. 

Though mastering the Rules Helps a lot to deal with These situations.  If your Playing in a tournement have a designated Judge!

khorne bloodbound has a weakness vs shooting, nothing you Can do about. You could invest however, in some Skull cannons. ( blood tithe value) they should put pressure on his heroes, remember that they Can shoot the turn they are summoned.

Last. In small 1k games, blood tithe is powerfull, spam Msu reavers and gorepilgrims, summon in whatever you need after. 

 

Last last 

fighting arrogant players is very rewarding. Imagine the glory when you Beat him.

[stato]

Sounds as much a problem of your tournament as the player.  The Tournament Organiser (TO) should be making sure rules are correctly interpreted, if he does not follow the rules he should be told by the TO.  Conversions also should be the ruling of the TO, if its not acceptable he should not be allowed it.  From the discussions above it sound like you dont know his rules much either so judging him needs to be done by the TO not 'trial by internet opinion'.

If he is being offensive to people then he needs to be told, but if he is just a bit 'that guy' then as long as he not swearing or insulting then he is doing nothing wrong, just he wont make many friends (and sounds like he doesnt want that if he doesnt play normally). Trying to smash him off the table to drive him away, when he is just entering a tournament, is just as bad an attitude to take, especially the 'he isnt one of the local guys'.  As i said previously, if he is good the tournament ranking should be placing him against other good players, not new people.  How many rounds do you have? what scenarios are you playing? how are the rankings organised each round?

I dont get the need to buy models in store though, the official GW stores are there to promote the company, if you want to support a specific store then great, but you can buy models anywhere.

 

[tea_wild_owl]

play objectives. simple but effective against free people. they have to keep standing to get their buffs, and dont have the best range (18"?).

otherwise, good saves or outrange them. I played with sylvaneth against a free people army and literally didn't loose a single model (even when Drycha ran in cc).

a nasty thing would be to summon a prismatic palisade in front of them. no los and possible -1 to hit. or hide within a citadel wood, they are blocking line of sight for magic and shooting.

other good armies are nurgle (hard to kill with 5+ wound save) or death (replenish units).

 

[AlphaKennyThing]

I really, really hate playing against players who are like that. It totally ruins the game for me. Unfortunately for such opponents, if I sense someone is having me on with some rules interpretations/interactions I'm the first to start chest poking.

"You've moved within 10" of my Gryph Hound so I immediately get to fire with my handgunners."

"Sure thing fella, mind showing me the rules for that just for my reference?"

<Quick glance over warscroll>

"Says here that it's when the enemy deep strike, and that only Stormcast can shoot, mate. Seeing as you meet neither of these criteria, I reckon you're in trouble now."

I relish the argument that follows. I won't even lower it to a roll off. These types of player need to realise you can't just cheat your way through the game, and just argue your opponent into submission. Equally, I'd be asking to see the rules for every single synergy said opponent claimed to exist from then on!

It'd be a long game, but that's his or her choice, not mine.