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Chris Tomlin

AoS 2 - Seraphon Discussion

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34 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

2" helps a ton. Why dont you just put in some work..  put some models on the table and give us some numbers 

Because I'm literally l at work!

I think you are the only person who has ever accused me of being lazy about theorycraft XD

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

this is my gut take as well, but just to play devil's advocate:

folks (perhaps even you?) upthread talked about honeycombing the bases to get most of two rows with 1" range into combat. If this is in fact doable, then spears shouldn't actually help very much as 2" still won't be able to get a third row into range. 

It's actually a bit easier to get the 3rd rank in (if there's even 1mm between the Saurus bases that are in contact with the enemy, and they're otherwise honeycombed with all bases touching, the 3rd rank is pretty much always in) than the 2nd, but even so, the numbers are pretty close vs 4+ saves, ~ even vs 3+ saves, and favoring clubs against anything better, or spears against worse. Clubs > Spears against any save of 5+ or better when the saves have re-rolls.

Assuming ~10" to work with in a flat line, you're looking at getting 13-14 models within 1" (even in the worst case scenario, where that last 30mm of space in the 10" is needed to space each front model ~5mm to get the 2nd rank as close as possible), or ~20-21 models within 2", which maths slightly better for spears against 4+ saves, but the difference is fairly negligible. Vs 5+ saves or worse, spears will be a fair bit better, and if you're not placing them perfectly, spears make placement easier/more convenient.

The best case scenario is basically ~50% more models with spears in range than you'd get with clubs if you're maximizing models within 1".

You're probably getting enough damage in that you don't need the extra swings from spears against targets with worse than a 4+ save, and vs targets with 3+ saves or better, that extra rend will be worth taking, so it's just going to come down to preference and what you expect the unit to be fighting. I think clubs are a bit more versatile because the rend mitigates the worst case, but spears are certainly at an advantage, if not a large one, against most units in the game. It's only against 2+ or re-rolling saves (Petrifex, S2D, Stormcast) where you'll find the clubs notably out-performing spears with optimal positioning. There is definitely something to be said about ease of use though. Spears making positioning the models to get all their attacks in easier is an advantage that can't be easily calculated.

Edited by Asamu
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Does the Astrolith bearer seem worth taking at all in a Coalesced army? His buffs aren't nothin', but he's coming in pretty expensive for them and missing out on a portion of what he brings to the table if you're not playing Starborne.

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15 minutes ago, whiskeytango said:

Does the Astrolith bearer seem worth taking at all in a Coalesced army? His buffs aren't nothin', but he's coming in pretty expensive for them and missing out on a portion of what he brings to the table if you're not playing Starborne.

It depends on your list? Coalesced lists will probably still run a Starseer, a Starpriest, and/or Kroak so +1 to cast is pretty good.

6+ ignore is pretty good, too.

Probably worth 140 points and a leader slot... I think if he was 100-120 he would be a no-brainer.

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Skink wise, what we thinkin? Blowpipes and clubs, or blowpipes and shields?

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2 hours ago, Tooooon said:

Skink wise, what we thinkin? Blowpipes and clubs, or blowpipes and shields?

Blowpipes and shields probably, though clubs do more than double the output in melee without buffs, so I guess it depends on how often you expect them to be fighting. Blowpipes and shields for sure in small units that are being used for screening, but for a unit of 20-40, it's probably up to whether you want them to be a bit more likely to survive or to do substantially more damage on the charge. If I was making a list with 3+ units of 40 skinks, I'd probably go with clubs. It's enough bodies that the extra melee output is probably worth taking a few more losses, and you'd probably be looking to have them kill things.

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Big blobs of Chameleon Skinks look pretty awesome too. Sure they cost 50% more than normal Skinks, but being so reliant on buffs you will likely have to focus on 1-2 units anyways.

But even if you dont intend on using them for damage in FoS, having 20 guys in a reserve for when your opponent forgets to screen every part of his backend of the board, capture an objective later on etc. seems pretty awesome. They look quite good even without any buffs.

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Just now, sorokyl said:

annnnnd Amazon is now sold out of plastic Dinosaurs for reasons that few understand. 

I can't wait to see some awful conversions.

On another note, I think the one big thing that will make the Dread Saurian a genuine take now is the ability to make it fly. That's the biggest deal here. 37 wounds at -1 damage and a spell for +1 save, combined with a solid profile will make this a viable choice. Compare it to say 12 ogre gluttons for 400/ 48 wounds at 5+ and the durability is easily similar if not higher if you're fighting lots of 2+ damage. At 510 I think it's one of the very few massive monsters that has the durability to be worth it. I don't think there's ever been a unit that's had its wounds doubled+ like that before.

The spell immunity is also quite a big deal, as combined with the Seraphon's grip over magic, it will be a ****** to take out at range, too. I want to see people powerslide that base into the entire enemy army.

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So the new saurian has me considering coming over to new lustria. 

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6 hours ago, Dankboss said:

I can't wait to see some awful conversions.

On another note, I think the one big thing that will make the Dread Saurian a genuine take now is the ability to make it fly. That's the biggest deal here. 37 wounds at -1 damage and a spell for +1 save, combined with a solid profile will make this a viable choice. Compare it to say 12 ogre gluttons for 400/ 48 wounds at 5+ and the durability is easily similar if not higher if you're fighting lots of 2+ damage. At 510 I think it's one of the very few massive monsters that has the durability to be worth it. I don't think there's ever been a unit that's had its wounds doubled+ like that before.

The spell immunity is also quite a big deal, as combined with the Seraphon's grip over magic, it will be a ****** to take out at range, too. I want to see people powerslide that base into the entire enemy army.

 I will certainly be running a list for mine,,though the base is so huge now,im not sure I would be looking to give it much in any way of movement buffs as it will likely have problems finding a good place to land/go.I would more be looking to camp it on an objective(or in cap range of course) were I know a fight will be taking place then buff/heal it.

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3 hours ago, Thostos said:

 I will certainly be running a list for mine,,though the base is so huge now,im not sure I would be looking to give it much in any way of movement buffs as it will likely have problems finding a good place to land/go.I would more be looking to camp it on an objective(or in cap range of course) were I know a fight will be taking place then buff/heal it.

Well, it's so big that it can just deny enemies from taking the objective outright.

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5 hours ago, Dankboss said:

Well, it's so big that it can just deny enemies from taking the objective outright.

so it begs the question is it worth making 35 even more tanky as coalesced or is it better to just lords of space and time it onto an objective and let it sit there literally denying that entire section of the board 

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The Dreads base isn't quite big enough to hold an entire objective cap zone.so getting swarmed is still a problem.

 Would have been really nice if they gave Seraphon the same rules that the Mawtribes monsters got...

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30 minutes ago, Thostos said:

The Dreads base isn't quite big enough to hold an entire objective cap zone.so getting swarmed is still a problem.

 Would have been really nice if they gave Seraphon the same rules that the Mawtribes monsters got...

With how cheap skinks are that seems silly. Let the ogres have their cool rule we don’t need it

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41 minutes ago, docofallplagues said:

so it begs the question is it worth making 35 even more tanky as coalesced or is it better to just lords of space and time it onto an objective and let it sit there literally denying that entire section of the board 

That’s a good question. Can you get it where it needs to go without teleporting it?

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Just now, Gdead909 said:

That’s a good question. Can you get it where it needs to go without teleporting it?

Make it fly

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Hah, 35 wounds is pretty nuts! Unfortunately its combat efficiency is really low, 

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33 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

Hah, 35 wounds is pretty nuts! Unfortunately its combat efficiency is really low, 

I think a good pilot will be clever with how they use his Roar of Ruin to take out hoards, as he only needs to get a few attacks through to wipe out scores more. And by clever I mean waiting for the right opportunity, where their opponent has no CPs for IP. That or using him to bait CPs out. I think the Dread will be a really grindy fight, which is why his damage is modest. His presence is massive, and easily usable in the right build, He doesn't even need to be the focus of the army if it's a skink based force as there's still 1500 points of other things.

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so I've been playing around with the idea of getting the saurian up to a 2+ save and if it would be worthwhile taking the priest and starseer to do it. is it worth pumping this much into one centre piece? 

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34 minutes ago, docofallplagues said:

so I've been playing around with the idea of getting the saurian up to a 2+ save and if it would be worthwhile taking the priest and starseer to do it. is it worth pumping this much into one centre piece? 

I think 3+ is the max due to keyword restriction. Personally, the only direct buffs he needs is the +1 save and fly spell.

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On 3/10/2020 at 1:37 PM, Kasper said:

What makes you think Bastiladons are trash now? They do almost the same damage as before with double rerolls, but it is much more reliable now. 

In Coalesced they can have 2 extra wounds and reduce damage taken by 1. Thats insane against factions that deal 2+ damage a hit like Ironjawz.

My first game with new Seraphon, took 2 Bastiladons in Thunderlizards. Fired both of them twice in my first turn.... killed a total of 2 Sequitors.

Maybe just bad rolls... maybe without rerolls for everything they are just as bad as they used to be outside of Thunderquake.

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2 hours ago, Calebexnihilo said:

My first game with new Seraphon, took 2 Bastiladons in Thunderlizards. Fired both of them twice in my first turn.... killed a total of 2 Sequitors.

Maybe just bad rolls... maybe without rerolls for everything they are just as bad as they used to be outside of Thunderquake.

I mean... Basing your opinion off 1 dice game alone is kind of worthless tbh. Did you trash the old Bastiladon when it rolled 2 attacks on 2D6 too? I did the math a couple of pages back.

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Does the Great drake asterism add 1 attack to the hero's mount as well? 🤔

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